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Started by Forrest277, May 28, 2013, 12:37:47 PM

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Forrest277

Quote from: bill m on June 01, 2013, 07:22:17 AM
Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.

Bill, my friend, I use good judgement and old fashioned common sense. There is no more to say about it than that.
It works, i check my gear regularly, I train with my gear, I work with my gear.  There is no way to quantify it exactly, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.



cheers

GF
==
Love my Husky ...

Jay C. White Cloud

QuoteJay, its 2013.  Your speaking about you've seen in the 80's.  Boy have things changed.

Hello Brendonv,

First, lets get back on the page of respectfully taking different viewpoints about things, without making definitive statements, or being overly critical of each other.  We can all be guilty of that, me especially, as I teach and teachers can be "know it alls."  Please forgive me if I ever come across that way, and correct me if I get out of line.  If I am in error on something that is based in a hard fact (2+2=4 kind'a stuff) please point it out to me, we all make mistakes.

Now back on point.  I was not speaking of what I did in the eighties per say, but more of a validation of how long I have been rigging and climbing, as well as, when I was "hot and heavy" working mainly as an arborist and climber.  I know things have changed, and much more could and should change in the field of arborist rigging criteria.  I stay up to date the best I can in all things related to the "high angle" environment, not just here, but in other locations as well, and not just for the Arborist trade.

QuoteIn no way shape or form would his work practices be allowed at any legit company today.
That is a pretty strong and definitive statement, and one that I would not make without observing the person work and rig for different challenges.  Do I believe he is working outside of what North American Arborist do on a daily basis, that is probably true.  The French started adapting "rock climbing" gear for tree work starting in the late 1960's to early 1970's and it only gets better each year.  Petzl harnesses and helmets were not allow at Asplundh Tree Services until I became a crew chief, with similar claims of, "they aren't safe," or appropriate for tree work.  Neither of which is true, and now you commonly see Petzl gear on Arborist belts, and heads.

QuoteIts a shame your giving suggestions based off rock climbing and the olden days.
Now I'm not sure if you meant to be that blunt, but I will take it in stride and point out, that unless you are a certified instructor of some kind, (like I am) and have the amount of time "on rope," that I do, you really should not make such statements.  I have not only taught advanced arborist rigging and climbing techniques, but also tactical rigging for snippers, caving, rock climbing, confined space and water rescue, steeplejack rigging, and the list goes on.  Are all my certificates up to date, heck no, was just a full time job keeping half of them, so when I need to for a class, I recertify in whatever I am asked to teach, and/or I get a co facilitator like yourself to take lead, then I don't have to bother.  Basically, if you don't have a "technical and traditional lead climbers/mountaineers" climbing back ground, (which is much more involved and technical than tree rigging, you really shouldn't speak to the crossover applicability between these two high angle environments.)  I gave the advice I did based on not just being an Arborist, but as a master rigger, that's not supercilious or verbose, just the facts.

QuoteYour accident in France should not affect my insurance rates. 
That is not really cool.  Unless I see someone, that obviously does not know what "in Sam hill they are doing," I would not project them having an accident, even in jest. 

QuoteIm not much for beating a horse, but i just don't care to see new angels born should a newbie stumble across this silliness thinking its the way to do it.
I'm not sure, how long GF has been climbing and rigging, and to talk about his very insightful post and photos as silliness, is not appropriate, IMO. He seems to be very thoughtful and well versed in the elements of the "vertical world."  Maybe I am incorrect, but I need more evidence before I would be overly critical of his practices.

Do I like cable clamp terminations, absolutely not, bartack, hand splice or knot would be much better, but I have used them in rescue and CC applications as they are quick and dependable if you have the experience and know what you are doing with them.

GF,

I don't like climbing with a saw on my belt either.  "Lining your saw" to it's on rig is more common in Europe than in the states.  You should learn to do it both ways, as there are times when it is useful.  Keep up the post and your thinking about this world of trees and rigging for their health.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

beenthere

Don't think you guys are making any headway. Just well let it go........ ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

brendonv

Oh boy  8)


Best i leave the instruction for the qualified, over and out. ;D
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

bill m

Jay C. How can you say cable clamps are fast when I can tie an 8 on a bite 10 times while you are going to get a wrench and the 8 will do the same thing.
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Jay C. White Cloud

Hello Bill M.,

I couldn't agree more, 99.9% of the time.  I would also like to point out one more time, that I would also rather see GF use a hand splice, bar tack, or some type of appropriate knot for his terminations that will work with the type of rope he is using.

In tactical and rescue scenarios, you can often have the need to secure a line that is under load or vectored, and if "dog wrapping" or "cinching" ties can not be achieved, or you are dealing with a cable or cable cored rope, you will need to know how to employ (properly) one of the mechanical clamping devices.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Forrest277

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on June 01, 2013, 05:05:50 PM
Quote
First, lets get back on the page of respectfully taking different viewpoints about things, without making definitive statements, or being overly critical of each other.

GF,

I don't like climbing with a saw on my belt either.  "Lining your saw" to it's on rig is more common in Europe than in the states.  You should learn to do it both ways, as there are times when it is useful.  Keep up the post and your thinking about this world of trees and rigging for their health.

Jay, thanks again for your insightful comments. 

I only come on here to share things I think other workers might find useful. I get by in life doing what I do, and my clients call me for a wide range of jobs.

This is all i do, I dont make huge money but we live good with the simple things we have. I enjoy immensely tree work of all kinds felling, climbing, maintenance and general housekeeping.

I am also a qualified plant scientist with 3 degrees, plus 3 years developmental biology research. I am therefore perfectly capable of understanding a well presented point of view.
>>>Jay, your advices are much appreciated.
I don't appreciate the "know it all" comments of others. I'm out there doing this stuff to earn an honest living, and after a hard days work the last thing I need to read is someone getting on a high horse about the way to do it "properly". 

I find it interesting that the guys that dissapprove are not prepared to explain anything, instead just prefer to refer to my work as "silly" or "unsafe" etc _ I can only say that if it were ACTUALLY (like in the real working world) unsafe i wouldnt be here writing this reply now would I ?
>>> Thank you for replying with insight and good intent.
The rest can't justify what they are talking about, and are therefore not really contributing to the shared knowledge, which after all is what this forum is for, no ?

These are the Spurs I use, which I find very, very good.



Which just goes to show that different approaches can produce good results, and in fact is what leads to progression within a field.

peace

GF
==



Love my Husky ...

bill m

Quote from: bill m on June 01, 2013, 07:22:17 AM
Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.
OK Forrest277 Why won't you answer my question? You keep spouting off about being safe but have no industry specs to back up what you are doing, just what you "think" is safe.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Forrest277

Quote from: bill m on June 04, 2013, 07:21:50 AM
Quote from: bill m on June 01, 2013, 07:22:17 AM
Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.
OK Forrest277 Why won't you answer my question? You keep spouting off about being safe but have no industry specs to back up what you are doing, just what you "think" is safe.

Here IS THE LATEST RESEARCH on the use of various methods for terminating poly ropes for the use in the logging industry. Which I think basically settles the argument AND shows that I am not doing something silly.

I suggest you read it and enlighten yourself to the possibilities...  CABLE CLAMPS can be legitimately used >>

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

so there you have it _ they used half the torque 45flb (on poly rope) vs the 90flb (recommended by the manufacturer for wire rope).

GF
==
Love my Husky ...

Forrest277

Quote from: brendonv on May 31, 2013, 04:57:54 PM
I really like how you use cable clamps to secure your rope together on your lanyard(joking of course).  You can have the strongest rope in the world but the fact of how you connect them means it all.

My ten years combined climbing experience, from being head climber for my business, foreman and lead for another company, and contract climbing for numerous other companies to this day must not be enough to make reccomendations about unsafe work practices.

If you are going to make sweeping statements about my work practices you had better be sure that you are actually up to date ... here is a quote taken directly from research on the matter.



and here is the FULL paper for you to read.

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

here are some summary statistics...



GF
==


Love my Husky ...

Jay C. White Cloud

Well documented and well presented GF.  This is the kind of work, (and research) that keeps the field of high angle rigging, (in all it's forms,) ever progressing and improving.  The more encompassing you skill sets, the better technician you will become, no matter where you apply your skills, be it in the mountains, or in the Arborist trade. Well done...
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

bill m

This is a research paper not a directive from a governing body that sets minimum standards for work site safety. All of the testing was done with Samson Rope Technologies Amsteel Blue 12 strand braided rope not the twisted strand type of rope you are using. It also is directed at logging operations. Nowhere in this research did it address using cable clamps on synthetic rope used on life lines which is what you are doing. I suggest you read it completely as I did, in particular page number 67
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Jay C. White Cloud

Bill M.,

This is a typical "study sheet" sometimes call a "blue report," or "tech report," which is often, and in this case sanctioned by OSHA. You don't get more authoritative than OSHA, and since I have both fought, and sat on OSHA boards, I think I would know.  There is no centralized, internationally sanctioned entity, private, governmental, or NGO that oversees everything in the world of rigging and climbing.  You asked for documentation and he (GF) provide an excellent example, and I have cited literature you could read, (there is others out there if you look for it.) 

If you don't like cable clamps, so be it.  It you don't want to use them, that is fine, and understandable.  However, to keep stating arguments even after you have had reference literature cited, and now a definitive study provided, and participated on by OSHA, and several PhD types, I'm not sure what else you could get, with out finding your own private research into "problems with cable clamps," which I actually did a search for because of this post thread, and found nothing definitive.

I'm not sure how your copy came out, but my page 67 is nothing but part of the source documents and cited literature, for the study.  I found no statement, dialogue or statistics.  Could you quote the section you are referencing that you find germane to this topic, and important to your thoughts about cable clamps?

In closing, I would remind you that each rope type has certain characteristics, and some type do not actually tie well, if at all, such as the one in the study, so splices and mechanical fasteners are the only method that are appropriate, which I stated earlier in this post thread.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Jeff

I am not liking the tone I am beginning to see in some of these posts. Not one bit.  Keep it friendly and informative, or I'll shut it down.  Forest277, I'm not picking on you, and it could possibly be a cultural difference that influences my observations, but it is mostly your posts where I am getting the sense of attitude from.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Forrest277

Quote from: Jeff on June 05, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
I am not liking the tone I am beginning to see in some of these posts. Not one bit.  Keep it friendly and informative, or I'll shut it down.  Forest277, I'm not picking on you, and it could possibly be a cultural difference that influences my observations, but it is mostly your posts where I am getting the sense of attitude from.

Ok Jeff _ I'm only sticking up for my corner when it was others that branded my work practices as "silly", " unsafe" and "bad example". 

Like I tried to explain _ I'm only here to share what I imagined would be useful to other workers.

  After all the comments about my flippin' clamps I did find a useful paper on the subject_which validates my use of them as an acceptable, if "not pretty", method...

At the end of the day I have 24 years climbing experience on rock and wood, without incident, and if that doesn't stand for something I don't know what will.  Furthermore, I'm out there working with my gear, and after all that's whats matters most to me.

The joy of the internet is the international nature of contributions _ if the differences are so great that people find it hard to comprend other approaches, then we are in a pickle ! lol

GF
==
Love my Husky ...

bill m

Quote from: bill m on June 05, 2013, 07:41:58 AM
Nowhere in this research did it address using cable clamps on synthetic rope used on life lines which is what you are doing.
This is the point I am trying to stress. Forrest277, In your post with the picture of the lanyard with the cable clamps if you had included a disclaimer as to something like " Don't try this unless you have the knowledge and training in fabricating this type of rigging." this thread would not have taken the path that it did. As for experience I have been climbing and rigging almost longer then you have been alive.
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Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Bill M.

You know what, you are correct, I personally stand in error.  Your point is quite valid.  I am very careful when giving advice about timber frames, that the builder is assuming full responsibility for the frame they cut, and really should seek advice from a qualified P.E.. 

Your point is duly noted and acknowledged.  It is easy to get into a debate such as this, amongst ourselves, knowing to the greater degree, no matter how we may "ruffel each others feathers,"  that we are speaking to another professional.  What was not accounted for was the novice reader.

I did stress qualifications and required skill sets, but not as succinctly as you just did.  That should have been the opening statement with something as potentially dangerous as climbing and rigging.  Thank you much for bringing it to the front of the conversation.  I will make an asserted effort to always do just that when commenting on this subject from now on.  Well done.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

brendonv

Exactly.

I just speak with fear that a newbie will take what you say and go up a tree thinking it is the "right way".  I personally know a guy who decided having spurs and a saddle made him a tree expert and now he is dead from a fall that could have been prevented if correct steps were taken.  It goes well beyond your clamped lanyard, nothing against you, just from a guy who climbs more trees than he cares to.

Good luck with your venture.

"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Brendonv,

I'm glad you came back to the conversation.  I want, at this point to make some other things really clear, as I have now noted that we have had many readers that, are not commenting, just reading that I was not paying attention to.  I would point out that conservatively, you the reader have witnessed a discussion about activities that are potentially life threatening.  This conversation has been academic between a collective mindset of climbers and riggers with a combined experience of over 100 years.

I will also take this opportunity to further stress the dangers of this craft by quickly accounting the number of deaths and severe accidents that I have witness and yes been part of, which goes well over 50 in my lifetime.  This environment is extremely dangerous if you are not well trained and prepared for the consequences.

Among many lead rock climbers, you have not earned your "bones" till you have broken a few and acquired a "fall total" of over 10 miles and a minimum of one fall over 40 feet.  Mine was 120 feet in pendulum and 500 feet total, it cost me much, including being paralyzed from the waist down and working really hard to get back to where I am.  That was the worse helicopter ride of my life. Learn from our discussion, but do not attempt anything here you read about without proper instruction.  Anyone is fallible, even the experts.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

beenthere

As I mentioned before, make a point for your "belief" and move on.
Trying to "word duel" doesn't change anything, and I don't think wins any "battle" in the end.
Nor does it prove who is smarter in the end.
That is just my opinion, and this has just ended up like a school ground stand off of "Is too " Is not" Is too" Is not"
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ed_K

Ok, here go'es. I've been reading on this thread each time you;all post.I'm a logger,I have climbing gear,I hate using it.It's when I can't get a choker around a tree from the roof of the skidder,and I need it higher I climb.I work with wire rope and clamps all the time.I go the my climber's companion book every time I have to climb,I have to have a day when it's quiet and a spotter with me,and most times I'm done for the day when that one tree is down.
So yes there are untrained people reading along with you.All my cabled trees landed where we wanted,but I hate doing it.
Ed K

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Ed_K,

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm just wondering would a throw bag and a length of the new high strength rope that is replacing steel cable, be of use by you in that situation you described.  I know of a few loggers that have switchover, and they are happy not to have to climb anymore.  Would that work for you?  Again, thanks for following along this crooked trail.

Hello Beenthere,

I hear what you are saying, thanks for sharing your opinion.  I don't believe the four of us lost any respect for one another in anyway.  We just need to find the conclusion and position to each be heard, and I believe that has been achieved.

No matter the details of the conversation I would have Bill_M. or Brendonv hold my "belay line" anytime, as I gathered from reading their concepts and conclusion, that in the end,they do the very best to understand and master their craft to it's fullest.  This conversation was just another step forward.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Forrest277

Ok, seems like we have made some interesting discoveries, and have alot of mutual respect for each other.

  As I am responsible for this thread I feel that I should try and conclude (for now) for all the readers ...

Like brendon here _ he knows how dangerous this work can be, it is easy to die doing this stuff wrong. The same goes for felling at ground level, I'm sure people here know of tragic incidents just at ground level.

This is where things will get more philosophical... through the years doing many types of extreme actvities, I have learned very well to trust that inner voice that warns you even before you begin to do something potentially dangerous.  Always listen to your gut instinct.

>> If you really feel in your heart that you are capable, and you are able to be 110percent confident in what you are about to do _ then do it and do it well. Do not be afraid as this will be your undoing.

BUT

>> If you feel in your heart that you are incapable, then trust that feeling also, be strong enough to let your ego go and don't do it. Train more and come back another day when you are ready.


Quote from: brendonv on June 05, 2013, 07:03:35 PM
Exactly.

I just speak with fear that a newbie will take what you say and go up a tree thinking it is the "right way".  I personally know a guy who decided having spurs and a saddle made him a tree expert and now he is dead from a fall that could have been prevented if correct steps were taken.  It goes well beyond your clamped lanyard, nothing against you, just from a guy who climbs more trees than he cares to.

Good luck with your venture.

thanks man, maybe just maybe, I'm the best partner you have never met ...

Love my Husky ...

bill m

Jay C. White Cloud, Thank You for understanding my position on this. I know that what is acceptable in other countries may not be here in the USA. Everyone in the USA doing tree work is bound by the Z133 regulations - no exceptions. So no matter how safe you think it is or what your gut instinct tells you if it is not addressed in the Z133 regulations it is not allowed. Please everyone with whatever you do if there are risks take the time to stop and think about it. Be Safe
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

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