Clearing Stumps.... best equipment??

[wfcjr]

We are going to have some acres logged off this winter.  Some will be selective thinning.
But will have a few spots where we want to clear out an acre or two.  All trees will be cut.
Then will need the stumps removed.  Wife wants to plant some fruit trees in a spot or two.
I will likely put in one or two additional food plots.

So, trees will be felled, limbed, landed & hauled off for timber sale, leaving stumps behind.  It would be enormously helpful if  I could get some experience based opinions on removing the stumps.  Forester is handling tree selection, so size of trees will all be of a diameter that is commercially sensible.  Trees will be primarily softwood (spruce) with occasional hardwood (maple & birch) in the mix.  The last time I did this we hired it out, but the folks had their controlled stump burning get... well... out of control.  Lost a few trees that we did not want to lose.

Am considering buying either a used excavator or dozer with low hours.  Can use either on other projects around the place and after future timber sales.

What would be the minimum sized excavator or dozer to do the job?  Am not afraid of tearing the soil up since it will be tilled, limed & leveled anyway.  Am concerned about equipment cost & maneuverability in the woods.  We are on some fairly hilly terrain in Central VT.  Also, I assume that a tracked piece of equipment is preferable to wheeled.  Was wondering about all steel tracks vs. tracks with rubber pads.   Most work to occur in winter on (hopefully) frozen ground.

Thanks...

[longtime lurker]

Obviously its all going to depend on the size of the stumps, but more importantly on the area to be grubbed out.
When it comes to anything landclearing - bigger is obviously better. But you probably dont want to go buying a D9 class machine to do just a few acres either.... or hiring one in because the freight can get scary.

For just a few acres your best bet would be to hire in a 20t excavator. My experience is that a mid sized excavator will do a job like that quicker then a mid sized dozer. Shift up to a larger area though and a big dozer is going to outperform anything else doing that sort of work - it is afterall exactly what dozers were designed to do, particularly if they come with cutterbars etc.

An excavator is about the most versatile piece of earthmoving equipment available and can do most anything with varying degrees of efficiency. A dozer on the other hand is only really good at a few things, but there aint nothing can match one when its a job thats right for a dozer.

Depending it can be better to hire in the right machine for a job then own it yourself - if its not a big job that you're talking about. I have 2 dozers and a wheel loader - I hire in an excavator about half a dozen times a year to do jobs that better suit an excavator because it works out cheaper then running my own gear to do so.

[KyLogger]

Stumps can be a PIA to remove........... in a perfect world a track hoe grubbing out stumps and a dozer windrowing them is the way to clear ground (stump field or timber) A small or mid size dozer will take alot of time grubbing stumps and you will have to push more dirt. Especially if the loggers leave short stumps. If using a dozer, tall stumps are preferred. A track hoe will remove the stumps far quicker. The problem comes when you need to "carry" the material any distance. That's where the dozer comes in........ I have cleared ground with both and both simultaneously. It can be done with either, but in my humble opinion an excavator for versatility cannot be beat. I really wish I still had mine. In a stump field or rocky ground rubber is gonna wear faster and take more abuse. With a careful operator the damage and excessive wear can be minimized but steel is the way to go. Especially on hill side ground. Not that the street pads on an excavator are anything to brag about. Just my two cents....


Others mileage may vary

Tom

[wfcjr]

I am not too worried about carrying & windrowing and/or burning.  I can carry the stumps away with my tractor & grapple.
I think that the bigger issue for me is getting the stumps out of the ground.  Can this be done with a compact excavator or small dozer?
Or more accurately, can this be done relatively efficiently with a compact excavator or small dozer?  Stumps will be cut fairly low to the ground so there will not be a lot of leverage for pushing.

Thanks....

[clww]

The commercial clearing I do now is doing this every day. We normally utilize a 320 or 330 CAT. We dig the roots loose with the bucket, then push the tree over rootball attached. Saw that off, and proceed as normal. Removing the limbs, debris, etc. is accomplisged with a CAT track loader.

[Kodiakmac]

A trackhoe is definitely the way to go...but in the old days we used a Stihl Drill and Nobels 808... every stumping day sounded like  :new_year: 

[lopet]

If you're thinking about carrying the stumps with your tractor then I would guess that they're not that big.  Yes, probably a midsize track hoe would to the trick easy.

[deastman]

A 315 Cat or 160 size excavator would work good for what you want to do. If you were going to be clearing good-sized hardwood stumps you would want a 200 size machine.  An excavator works great clearing stumps because after you dig the stump out you can shake it to help get most of the dirt out of it.

[thecfarm]

Where all all the stumps going,buried,piled up??  You can get quite a rootball with a tree 2 feet across.  I have many rocks at my place. One stump,10 rocks.  :  And those 10 rocks will be big ones. There will be about 100 smaller ones too.

[BargeMonkey]

 Like everyone has said, each machine has its good points. Depends what your budget is, there is alot of nice iron out there in the 25-40k region. I see alot of landowners go down and buy a machine thats on its last legs, planning on doing clearing work and a pond, spend 15-20k, get it home and have it need 10k in parts, or it die's completely and it goes for scrap. I would sit down and figure out if you plan on keeping the machine. We have 3 excavators and 3 dozers that we do clearing work with at home, the smaller the handier the machines. The little J is pampered and wont see tree work. Our big excavator and dozer sit 9 months out of the yr. 202 truck in NH has a pile of decent stuff up there, if you take your time a 308-311-120 sized machine will do all the work you wanna do without eating you alive for fuel or parts. Plus if you keep it you can have it moved pretty cheap, bigger machines cost 125-200 an hour around here to move.

[thenorthman]

In the end it all comes down to time and money, bigger equipment more money shorter time, smaller equipment less money longer time.



In skilled hands a 30-40k pound machine will remove stumps with ease, say a 120-140 or so,

a 160-200 sized machine 50-60k pounds it wont matter if the operator is skilled...

A dozer is fine and all but its built or pushing or pulling, little else and for it to effectively remove stumps without overburdening your patience a D6 or better is the way to go, out here if they are taken seriously as a clearing and grading company a D8 better be on the payroll.  The other problem with a dozer is they involve some more actual skill to operate effectively, excavators not so much, don't get me wrong a skilled operator in an excavator is a thing of beauty, but any one can sit down and start wigging the joy stick until they figure it out and make something look like reasonable work...

Anyway, a med sized excavator is going to be priced better and with either a small bucket or a ripper hook it will make short work of even the biggest stump.

Barring heavy iron a gas auger and a few sticks of 30% do wonders, then you just need a wheel barrow and a shovel...

[Holmes]

 I bought a 12000 lp. Kubota grey market excavator 10 years ago. I take out more trees / stumps with the excavator than I cut down with chainsaws. It handles softwood up to 16" but hardwoods are a lot of work when they are bigger than 10" .   Dig the roots up and push the tree over  of course having a tall tree for leverage does make it easier. It also has a grading blade and a mechanical thumb.  A hydraulic thumb would be a LOT better. Brookside Equipment usually has a good supply of mini,s.  I was going to buy a cat 3.5, 8000lb. machine which I had rented but a 12000 lb. machine and up would be the way to go. Having the ability to turn around 360 degrees in the woods is very helpful. With the excavator I have turned 5000' of a very grown over old cart path into useable path {my wife calls it a Dana's highway} 8)

[BargeMonkey]

 Brookside has always treated us right, 2 trucks and 1 loader from them the last 4 yrs. Certain grey market machines are ok, but ive seen a few that you just couldnt get parts for, yanmar B50 sits down the road with pump and electrical issues, whole diff machine than a US model. Scrap.  :D 

[shinnlinger]

I used to own a 20 ton 690b with a rigged hydraulic thumb.  It was pretty ideal for what you want to do.  Just rip a stump and flip it over right back in the hole.   That said, it became too big for my property at a certain point and a smaller machine might be more versatile in the long run.   Of course the screaming deals do seem to
Be on the bigger rigs and since you don't need to move it you can do like I did and sell it for what you paid for after doing a bunch of stuff that wouldn't have gotten done otherwise.

[sawguy21]

Nobody has suggested ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel to loosen them. franken-smiley

[wfcjr]

Was considering a JD 60D or 60G in the 13,000# & 53hp range.

But am confused... some posters are suggesting Cat machines greater than 100hp, others
are saying excavators in the 50hp range would work well.  In any case, I am assuming that
a hydraulic thumb is a must.

[BargeMonkey]

 Thumb is basically a must for stumping and tree work, stacking rock. Your talking a machine in the 70-100k + for a newer 60D-60G. Personally thats a little light. If your going to throw down that kinda scratch go buy a decent 150 Kobelco bladerunner and have the best of both worlds. You need some weight for stumping, a 60 may get a decent stump out after you fight with it, but forget carrying it or pushing it. 311-120-160 sized.

[wfcjr]

If you're thinking about carrying the stumps with your tractor then I would guess that they're not that big.  Yes, probably a midsize track hoe would to the trick easy.

Tractor is a JD 5095M with pretty good carrying capacity.

[Maine logger88]

My father has a 120 cat that he uses for earthwork that will pull out stumps easily I would go with something in that size range 25 to 30k pound machine. A hydraulic thumb is nice but once you get the hang of it a mechanical thumb works pretty well.

[redprospector]

If you hold your mouth just right...you can uproot a pretty good stump with a 450B John Deer. Of course it helps if you leave the tree attached until it hits the ground.  :D



  

 

[NWP]

Wfcjr- How big are these trees?  DBH?  You'd probably be better off having an excavator come in and remove the trees prior to cutting them. Even if you lose some value from damage, you'll get it back from paying for less hours on a machine not trying to dig stumps. Stumps are heavy too. Really heavy.

[wfcjr]

Wfcjr- How big are these trees?  DBH?  You'd probably be better off having an excavator come in and remove the trees prior to cutting them. Even if you lose some value from damage, you'll get it back from paying for less hours on a machine not trying to dig stumps. Stumps are heavy too. Really heavy.

Foresters report gives a "Quadratic Stand Diameter" of 9.4".  But range in report is from 7"-18".  I know from walking the area that there are some trees that are larger. I am assuming that they will focus the harvest on the upper portion of the diameter range.  Stand is red spruce, white pine with some hemlock & hardwoods.   

[wfcjr]

OK,  Trying to distill the advice so far.....

I will unlikely go for a dozer since an excavator would be more handy in the long run for other tasks & projects on the property.

In terms of moving the stumps, tractor handle 3,000# and a bit more.  I am assuming that this is enough.
Please let me know if I am wrong.

Seems like several folks think that the opening bid is an excavator in the 80hp-120hp range and 25,000# to 30,000# of weight.  Two outliers... Holmes referenced a 12,000# Kubota.  I believe that Barge Monkey went as low as a 308, which is in the 55hp and 17,000-18,000# range.  But these recommendations seem to be at the lower end of the range.

I was considering something the size of a JD 60 series or Hitachi ZX60-USB, which I believe is an orange painted JD or more accurately the JD 60 is a yellow painted Hitachi.  These machines come in at 53hp and around 13,500# of weight.  I was assuming that these would have enough power & weight to do the job, would be maneuverable enough in the woods, and would be small enough that they can be stored & used on other projects.   Going up to a JD 75/85 series with similar horsepower, but more weight & more $$.

When looking at the larger excavators that others are recommending, I would not want to spend anywhere near that $$ for new.  Also, not sure that I want to take on the maintenance & upkeep associated with something that large.  Not sure I am tooled up for it.  (I certainly lack the experience.)

If I were to consider something in the 80-100hp & 25,000# - 35,000# range, what sort of hours is one looking for in terms of wear & tear?  Would assume that all things being equal, fewer hours are better, but there is a balance between price & expected life on a used car that has 10,000 miles vs a used car with 150,000 miles.  Just don't know what is reasonable for used hours on heavy machinery.

If folks really believe that 80hp-100hp and 25,000# - 35,000# is the minimum bid, it may make more sense to hire it out.

Any helpful thoughts & comments are appreciated.

[luvmexfood]

Have no real world experince in this but a lot of country knowledge.

Had a guy bring his D-6 and do some land clearing for me. Very experienced in working in these mountains. Asked him ahead of time if he wanted me to cut the trees down he was going to push out. Did not want that said that he could take his blade raised up high and start to push them over and the weight of the tree helped alot. Then he would get behind the root ball and push them on out. Maybe you could work out a deal with a logger where he would then hook them and pull them to a pile, saw off the root ball, and then skid on out. Just a thought.

Second, and I do have experience in this, is when you make your clear cut areas leave just a few good trees in each acre. Maybe 5 or so depending on the size of the trees. You will find that your grass will come on better if it has a break sometimes from the hot summer sun.

Lastly, if your wanting to attract deer I would watch at Lowe's, Home Depot etc. and when they had some deals on apple trees pick up a few and plant around the edges or in the middle. Oh. And leave you a good tree for a tree stand.

[Nate379]

A EX60 is way too small to get any real work done.  It's a fine machine for digging a trench to put in a water line or something like that but it's not heavy enough for stumping.

We run an EX200 and it's almost too small, it's about 45,000lbs.  It's not horrible, but have run into many stumps that too quite a bit of fussing to get removed.