Hello Everyone,
I am in the early stages of designing a sled/toboggan for skidding logs. The plan is to put tracks on my ATV and pull a sled to skid 16' - 20' logs (12"-16" dbh) out of the bush. I was initially thinking of an arch but since most of my time available for logging is when the ground is snow covered, I thought a sled may be more appropriate than an arch with skis. Having read many of the forum archives, I noticed that Quebecnewf has a couple of different sleds pulled behind a snow machine which have the logs fully off the ground. I was thinking of a shorter version that carries just the front (butt) of the log(s) and have the tops dragging the same as a long load on an arch. The distances to be travelled will not be too far hopefully maximum 1/2 to 1 mile. The reason for the shorter sled is for handling in the bush.
Any suggestions as to the pros and cons of the different sled/toboggan designs would be appreciated.
Looks like a great project and hope it works out for you. Being in the snow country, you have a pretty good idea what tracked ATV's will pull and how they handle in the snow at depths in the woods where you plan to work. I figure you've made a decision not to go with a snow machine (snowmobile) for a good reason.
Look forward to some pics and some logging. 8)
Do you have pics of the ATV and tracks?
I have a simple approach that I use year round, but it works especially well over snow. I picked up a used bed-liner from a pickup truck. I cut off the wheel wells and sides then sliced it down the middle length-wise. I now have 2 - 8' skidding sleds. I simply roll the log onto the "sled", strap it on, hook a chain to the log and pull it away. Works Great 8)
Here are a few pics of the ATV and my firewood trailer.
How about some sled ideas?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17833/CAN-AM_650.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17833/FIREWOOD_LOAD.jpg)
I have a simple log sled that I use in narrow spaces that is curved on the front with a raised lid of about 1" on the back to lift the logs off the ground. Also welded on the side is eyelids for using a racket tie down to keep the logs in place. Bolted on the front plate is a small channel (allows the channel to move up an down) with a coupler to attach to the ATV. Overall width of the steel plate is around 30 " wide and 40 " or so in length. Overall, the log sled works well on bolts 8-12 ft in length but it surprising works very well on grass and of course snow. I do stack small bolts two or three level high as times. It is a cheap alternative and the sled itself only weighs 90 lbs or so. Hope this helps.
I worked on a sled about 25 years ago for someone else I think it was built for 4' wood stacked side ways and had 4 runners, the front runners must have pivoted, it was made to be pulled with a snowmobile and was constructed mostly with wood and had flat steel runners, braces etc. The part that I remember most was on the pole where it connected to the snowmobile there was a comperssion spring (like a large valve spring ) so when you started to tow it would let the snowmobile move a little bit before the sled moved I never got to see this work but I was told it made all the difference to get the thing going.
As I am typing this I think I remember something about icing the runners and also having 2 short loops of chain to put over the front runners to go down hill (I never would have thought of that until it was too late)
You could also make it expandable with a sliding pole connecting front and rear sleds?
Cheers
When you put the tracks on the ATV, add some to the cart. ;D
Put power to them (someone here can suggest how :) )
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/1595/FIREWOOD_LOAD.jpg)
Thanks for the ideas, I especially like the one about having some chain available to act as a brake. Started thinking about a type of a large skidding cone type design to pull behind. Maybe those very first threads I had read in the archives about using a hood off of a VW as a skidding cone are now sinking in. The trailer picture that I have in my earlier post is not being used for log lengths, just firewood and general yard stuff. Having a skidding system that is light and is able to be carried on the back of the ATV would probably be better for selectively logging a few of the better saw log trees that we have as opposed to a large sled design. Less trail/turnaround area needed.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,29537.msg425024.html#msg425024
Try here and also search some more of his posts.
Nice CanAm 8) 8) What size is it ??? I'd like a set of tracks for my 650 Outty. I hear good things about them but that they are power robbers. My neighbor has tracks on his 680 Honda Rincon which he uses to groom ski trails around his place and loves them. Claims it'll go where a snowmobile won't :-\ :)
Hello Corely5,
The ATV is a 2007 Can-Am 650 Max XT. I am not concerned about the tracks being power robbers as all I really want is low end pulling power which , I believe, is accomplished by the change in gearing. I am looking at a set of studded apache tracks. Just waiting for enough snow to fall to evaluate before buying.
Hi
New guy here.
A friend of mine has a trashed plastic canoe that he cut the stern off and uses for a very sweet, all season stone boat/firewood slide.
He drags it around,fully loaded with an old Case garden tractor
I recommend beefing up the bow for pulling, and replacing the thwart(s) with angle iron or hardwood that has some girth.
R
I myself would keep away from anything with skids on it.I would think being on top of the snow would be better.If you have a packed trail that is differant.But I don't have many packed trails to every tree in my woods.
DGK
I see no reason why one sled and use it in "taildragging" mode would not work. I have not tried ATV's with tracks for log hauling. They seem to have good power on hard packed snow but in soft snow maybe not so good. ATv's are very cold to drive in the winter out in the open .
My main reason for two sleds and keeping the log of the ground is speed and if you tail drag many logs through the same log path you will tear up the path and then get stuck.
I look foward to more pics of your setup.
What type of logs are you cutting??
How deep is the snow??
rather than build a sled I think you would get the same results with a skidding cone. I made one out of a plastic barrel and us it to skid the logs to the trail with my winch.
I posted pics of it here on this site a while back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/HPIM0900.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/HPIM0910.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/HPIM0906.JPG)
Quebecnewf
Thanks to all for the replies:
QuebecNewf - My original idea was to winch logs to the skid trail using either a portable winch or a set of blocks/rope and the ATV. Once the trees were alongside the skid trail, then I would like to bunch them up and skid as many as possible for the sake of being efficient. The problem is, I don't know how much weight the ATV with tracks is going to be able to haul on the snow. The trees that I plan on cutting will be green pine trees for use on my sawmill. I am trying for trees with a 12" to 16" dbh so that I can try and get at least 1 16' log out of it with a 9" top to make 6 by 6 cants which will then be milled into 1 by 6 siding.
Our snow depth varies but is usually not much more than about 2 - 3 feet deep. I would like to keep the skid trails small for a less of an impact and to save time building as the trees that I am going for are few and sometimes far between.
How much drag do you find trail dragging the logs have as compared to being fully off the ground with your sled? Could you skid say 1/4 or 1/2 of your sled load on the same trail (comparing apples to apples)? Additionally, would you notice much difference if you were skidding a tree length load as opposed to a bucked load (same weight) at 17' length?
When tail dragging a log or bunch of logs, do you think that there is much advantage to lifting the front of the bunch up a foot or so to take the weight as opposed to the skidding cone and having the full length of the log dragging?
Thanks for your help.
Atv's can pull decent loads.
I had this one skid logs up a hill where my Argo couldn't get traction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OX0J2Ovhw
Hello Kevin,
How many of those same size trees do you think that you could have pulled at one time?
Maybe two that size without the hill.
One is easier on the machine.
Bigger loads mean bigger machines, this is about the biggest I've skidded with the Argo.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/Big%20sticks2.jpg)
Any reason you want to use the ATV particularly? I looked at the ATV tracks briefly and the prices I saw were, well pretty stunning 4k$ and up. I just wanted to be able to get around in the snow, which we get lots of. Snowmobiles for the most part are not very good in deep snow.
What I'm driving at though is why not invest in a small dozer? Around here older John Deere 1010/2010's can be had for around what you probably would spend on the ATV tracks, and would definitely pull more, without worry about overstressing the machine. Deere 350/450's are an even better machine, that can be had for a few $$ more than the older 10 series.
I have to admit though, I think the ATV tracks are pretty neat.
Thanks
Quote from: tughill on November 03, 2009, 05:36:07 PM
Snowmobiles for the most part are not very good in deep snow.
Should look into a long track sled made for hauling and work in the snow. Like the older tundras, and the newer expedition sleds from ski doo. Wide & long tracks, with low weight and high/low range transmissions (expeditions), they get along good in the deep snow.
Hello Tug & Chevy,
Thanks for the suggestions. The reason to use the ATV is because I already own it and want to get more use out of it so the tracks seem to be a good way to go. If my bobcat was any good in the bush I would use it but it does not have enough ground clearance.
Only reason I mention an older Tundra snow machine is that you could find a good used one for much less than a set of tracks. I've seen used sleds for sale in the 1500-2000 $US range in good shape, where a new set of tracks is 4000-5000$US.
DGK
Tail dragging logs will cut the amount you can tow by about half or more. the biggest problem with tailing is you tear up the path and after a few trips you have to fix it back up or wait a day till it sets up again. Long logs 16' and longer are a problem in the woods with narrow and sometimes crooked trails. If you have a crook in your trail and your load is long the back sled wants to cut the corners. I often tail drag long logs out of the woods. I do this on the end of the day so that way my path can freeze overnight. I also do it before a snowstorm that way the new snow fixes up the trail.
I have been logging with snowmobile for the last 15 years and have learned many little tricks to doing it right. Snow conditions vary so much that on any given day you may have to cut your load by half if the weather is warm or you have had a recent batch of snow etc etc.
We haul on the land and across the sea ice so "slob" under the snow has to be avoided at all costs.
Don't get a Tundra for hauling logs. You can haul logs with them but they are just too light and do not have enough HP to do the job well.
No one in this region has tried ATV tracked machines for logging. I looked into it a few years ago but just too cold to drive.
My sleds are homebuilt and it took a lot of trial and error to get them right.
Check out my gallery for all different pics from my logging work
Quebecnewf
Sorry I was thinking skandic and typed tundra. The skandics with the 503 rotax have lots of power IME.
Quebecnewf,
I have looked at your pictures and find them very encouraging. It looks a though you have perfected snowmobile log hauling. I think that I will experiment with a few different skidding designs first to see how they work and to assess the trail damage. I have thought of modifying my tub trailer to to use as a forwarder as well. The manufacturer makes skis for the trailer if required. Right now though, I think it is best for me to experiment with the inexpensive ideas while I learn the ins and outs of this type of logging. Then, I can refine my equipment to work in the conditions that I have.
Cheers
Wow, you guys deal with stuff in the snow that I can't even imagine.... smiley_clapping
Just think Magicman...... At times we have to shovel the snow away from the base of the trees before any cutting takes place. ;)
Brad.
Quote from: Coon on November 04, 2009, 08:09:52 PM
Just think Magicman...... At times we have to shovel the snow away from the base of the trees before any cutting takes place. ;)
Brad.
I usually cut the tree first, then dig down to cut off the 12' butt log :o
Nick
Quote from: Coon on November 04, 2009, 08:09:52 PM
Just think Magicman...... At times we have to shovel the snow away from the base of the trees before any cutting takes place. Brad.
You see more snow in a day than I've ever seen in my life.....or probably will ever see in my lifetime.
When cutting in the provincial forestry here you must cut the trees as low to the ground as possible. When the DNR come to check your cut block they check stump height as part of their manditory checklist. In violation to this you get fines if your numbers of high stumps is above their criteria. Fines are given to both faller and cut block permit holder. After the third offence you are ejected from the forestry permanently with your name put on the Provincial DNR database. Personally, I fell timber in the forestry for two winter seasons and had two stumps that were too high. DNR guy made me cut the stumps off and gave me a verbal warning. I was surprised that he even found these stumps cuz the were buried in snow and tree limbs. ;D
Brad.
Its fun marking timber in the winter then come ssummer you realize your once breast height paint is 8+ feet in the air. Or for the inexperienced marking in the "non-snow" season at 5-6' high then come winter the paint disappears under the snow.
When felling timber the back end of a snowshoe works great as a shovel to dig to the root flare.
Magicman, Snow reduces the fricrion and makes skidding much easrier, cleaner logs too. Ground freezes, no mud no bugs its nice to log in the winter
Stonebroke
http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=R0doZldycWuRpcUxiRW8&fun-in-the-woods-or-how-not-to-fall-a-tree
Here's what happens in the woods when your not looking up . I have cut a lot of trees over the years and this is the closest I have come so far to ending it all
Quebecnewf
WOW.....Neaver had that happen before.
Did have one chase me around a tree.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom
Quote from: beenthere on October 29, 2009, 02:02:49 AM
Looks like a great project and hope it works out for you. Being in the snow country, you have a pretty good idea what tracked ATV's will pull and how they handle in the snow at depths in the woods where you plan to work. I figure you've made a decision not to go with a snow machine (snowmobile) for a good reason.
Look forward to some pics and some logging. 8)
Do you have pics of the ATV and tracks?
Here is the ATV installed with tracks. Sled design is soon to start.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17833/ATV_with_Tracks.jpg)
Is it hard to turn with tracks on?
Stonebroke
Hi Stonebroke,
The ATV does not turn as tight and does need a little more effort than with wheels. They have a steering limiter which is adjustable as well as track angle adjustment that affects the handling. I have just installed them and need to play around with the adjustments to get them dialled in just right.
I used a ski doo alpine (2 tracks, 640cc engine) for 6 years along with a small set of bob sleds. Used a box on the sleds for the firewood and took the box off and used bunks when I wanted to haul saw logs (12' best size to work with) The whole set up cost me about $2500 used.
Takes a while to learn to steer the twin tracks but didn't need much snow and it would haul about 1/4 cord firewood or 1/2 dozen logs on the sleds. I will try to find an old pic.
Glk34
A pic would be great!!