So, what's the deal?

[DanG]

The thread on Live Oaks got me to thinking. ???  Maybe some of you guys with some eddication or, perhaps booklearning, could 'splain something to the rest of us.

What are the main characteristics that seperate one family of trees from another? Some things are pretty obvious, such as the differences between pines and oaks, but what puts the oaks in the beech family, and what keeps firs from being pines?

[Texas Ranger]

I took six years of college, and 33 years of forestry practice and I still cannot explain it.  There is a whole line of differentiating physical structures that devides out the species.  Has something to do with endomorphic structure and physical characteristics.

And  I think I have had to much pop skull.

[Bro. Noble]

Them DanG guys and their eddycation :  We got these Juniper trees that grow all over around here.  Some smart guy comes along and names them Eastern Red CEDAR :D

[Ron Wenrich]

Basically, you are looking at trees that have a common origin.  Go back far enough on the evolutionary chain, and you will find one parent species that begot all them others in that genus.

Present classification is based on the flowers.  All trees with the same type of flower is lumped together.  Those with similiar flowers also have other similar features.  For example, the Fagaceae family have broad cross rays, for the most part.

Fagaceae also has 6 genus:  beech, chestnut, chinkapin, oak, tanoak and a South American beech.  The oak (Quercus) genus has 2 sub-genera - white oak and red oak.

Confused yet?   Here are some of the neat associations:

Black cherry is in the rose family.  Willow, cottonwood, and aspen are in the same family.  Hickory, pecan, and walnuts are in the same family.  Sumac is in the cashew family.  Locust is in the pea family.  Box elder is a maple.  Ash is in the olive family.  The cypress family includes cypress, cedars and junipers.

The id breakdown for eastern white pine is as follows:
Kingdom.......Plant
   Division.........Spermatophyta
      Subdivision......Gymnospermae
         Order..............Coiferales
            Family...........Pinaceae
               Genus...........Pinus
                    Specie........strobus

You can also get into varieties, which are below the specie.  Great for urban foresters.  Most of us other guys usually know family, genus and specie.

And, yes, I had to look that all up since I ain't that smart.   :D

[DanG]

Thanks, Ron. That's the kind of scoop I was looking for. Good job explaining it, too.

I was kinda feeling unarmed in some of the discussions about the different species. Do you know of any websites or books that would give a fella a leg up on this stuff without getting too deep? I'd just like a working knowledge so I don't seem quite so ignorant when fielding questions for customers and other folks that think I should know because I have a sawmill.

I also posted this question in an attempt to stimulate some discussion, so any other input would be appreciated.

[chet]

DanG,
A very good book is "The complete Trees Of North America" by Thomas S. Elias.

[Ron Wenrich]

I just used my dendrology book from college.  Written by Harlow and Harrar.  Budman has the same book.

Another book I use quite a bit is the Textbook of Wood Technology by Panshin and DeZeeuw.  This has a ton of information about wood and is very useful.   Sometimes it gets down to the vascular level of wood.  

Understanding Wood by Hoadley is also a practical book.  You can take that info and use it.

The first two books are well over 35 years old.  You might be able to get something like that on Amazon or Ebay.  Don't overlook the Forestry Handbook for information on forestry and logging.

[Bud Man]

  So --What's the definitive answer for one is a foreign language to another, I was reluctant to even post a response to the mentioned topic because it's such a feeble solution!   If this was a forum for Botanist's it would be relevant but more relevant here is what some referred to as its properties, usages and difficulties in sawing etc. Many species have multiple names such as Osage-Orange,:Bowwood, Horse apple, Hedge apple,Thorn apple, Yellow dye, etc.... The older I get the more I realize how ignorant I am, even in the areas of interest that I have studied. The dialog here is why I enjoy The Forum so much and why I keep logging on !

[Squirrell_Boy]

   Thanks Ron for that rundown. The scientific stuff does help you know what wood we are talking about. As Bud Man pointed out there are many common names for even one tree and it was really confusing when i first got interested in trees and wood. The science can be confusing too, but it is part of the learning process. I ain't been to college lately and when i was it wasn't always this interesting or fun. I'm learning a lot here.

[DanG]

Thanks for the input, guys. Let's keep the dialogue going so Bud Man will keep checking in.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Unfortunately, one of the reasons 'Bud Man' was hesitant is that even in the scientific community more than one botanical name is given the plant.

Some are constantly being argued over or changed; e.g. in an another post earlier tonight I responded with Calocedrus decurrens for Incense Cedar. It also is known as: Libocedrus decurrens and is not a true cedar at all.

Plant name changes will suddenly show up in scientific literature with a different genus or family name.  Usually due to significant disagreements.  Acer species in particular have many battles over proper taxonomy.

So for the most part myself and other foresters / arborists will use the more common of botanical names published. Without adding further confusion.  Much of the new taxonomy arguements are centered around the recent discovery's of DNA analysis.  :