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Tie Logs

Started by 4x4American, August 17, 2016, 06:03:52 PM

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4x4American

If you're buying logs specifically for RR ties, do you pay a certain price per log or do you use a scale?


I only have a market for certain hardwoods for grade lumber, but RR ties can be a variety of species.  If I don't have a place to lose my side lumber, I'm going to be losing money with logs bigger than 15" if I payed on the scale.  So obviously I can't pay by the scale, but is that common for tie logs?  The company to buy them from me wants boxed heart ties, so only one tie per log.
Boy, back in my day..

drobertson

If I read you right, several types make ties, there has, or needs to be an out for the so called odd ball side lumber, it can be costly to set on lumber.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

WH_Conley

Around here, NE Ky, we can readily sell oak side lumber for flooring. The other species not so good. A few years back flooring was so cheap that I was taking heavy slabs, banding them up in bundles and selling them for firewood and came out ahead. You will have to do some tracking to see if this would work in your situation.
Bill

killamplanes

You will need a flooring market for the grade lumber oaks, hickory etc. And a pallet market for low end stuff sycamore and low grade oaks ash etc. It's probly more important to have the side lumber markets than anything cutting ties. I now I have learned the hard way. And there will be a bunch of side lumber. You may go into it saying u will only cut 15in and smaller but I bet u won't.  I can't stress enough find a home for the side lumber before you have semi loads of mixed who knows what piled up everywhere.  My 2cents
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

4x4American

Quote from: killamplanes on August 17, 2016, 09:12:22 PM
You will need a flooring market for the grade lumber oaks, hickory etc. And a pallet market for low end stuff sycamore and low grade oaks ash etc. It's probly more important to have the side lumber markets than anything cutting ties. I now I have learned the hard way. And there will be a bunch of side lumber. You may go into it saying u will only cut 15in and smaller but I bet u won't.  I can't stress enough find a home for the side lumber before you have semi loads of mixed who knows what piled up everywhere.  My 2cents




Thanks for your .02.


Right now I can lose grade oak lumber down to 3A, and I can take it down to a RW pallet cant and lose that too.  I need to send out minimum of 4mbf per load on the grade hardwoods, and there's not much profit in anything below #1C.  I do have markets for the slabs and sawdust.  I can get more for a RR tie than a pallet cant so I have been trying to corner that market but it seems like it might just not work for my particular application.  The pallet guy down the road wants me to provide him with all I can produce of 42" long pallet stringers but there is more $ and less handling involved with ties, and with the ties its FOB mill whereas with the pallet guy I have to deliver too.   
Boy, back in my day..

killamplanes

I am very aware of the pallet market and stringers. Here cants 3.5 by 5.5 are 40 cents bdft. Stringers 55-60 cent bdft. I personally cuthink alot of 5/8 which sounds crazy but when chasing a tie out of 13-14 inch logs there's not much room for4/4 lumber the math work easier alot for pallet stringers. But it's alot of work edging cutting to length etc. I caught a contract building specialty pallets and mainly repairing them right now. Let me tell u its been eating the side lumber but been pretty good gig. But haven't but just started so I give it time before I make judgement.  And remember ties get graded junker here are bucks 1-2 in a stack of 25 hurts. Seldom does a pallet guy belly ache unless ur selling him air.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

4x4American

Yeapp...I think maybe I'll stick with grade lumber and pallet cants mainly and if I get enough ties I'll ship em
Boy, back in my day..

paul case

I cut ties.
I make all lumber from the sides into 4/4. I sell the grade fas and some 1c to a local flooring plant 29 miles away. They let me deliver gooseneck loads.
Anything that isnt RO or WO grade fas or 1c gets cut down to 1.25(4/4) x 3.5 x 48'' and sold as stringers.
I could sell hickory for grade but it went down a while back so that I can make more in stringers. If you figure the stringers as 1'' like they do the 1.25 I sell at the flooring plant they are making me $.67 bdft. The ties are right at $.60. Its a little more work to do stringers but well worth the effort. Ties too. Ties are a big chunk of low grade stuff and that means less sawing.

My $.02 worth.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

4x4American

What are you paying for logs to make those numbers work?


I'm focusing on Sel/better W.O. lumber because that's the best pay right now and at the price I have to pay to get good logs to my yard there's not much meat left on the bone for pallet stock or anything.


The guy at the pallet shop has a 3 sided edger to get a 1" board out of the slabwood that comes from his end dogging scragg mill, I was thinking that with the right setup, I might be able to make more $ out of my slabwood then selling it to the guy who chips it for mulch.  But much more handling also comes and I still don't have a worker.  The pallet guy is all for my little operation, he was over the other day and gave me a bunch of good ideas on making my operation more efficient.
Boy, back in my day..

Ron Wenrich

Bigger mills often have several different grades and prices for their logs.  They separate things out by species, and come up with a price list.  If you don't do that, you'll end up with logs that you're paying more for than the bigger mills.  Good loggers make money by marketing their logs vs sending them to one mill.  You'll get those logs that you're paying too much for compared to other mills.

That means you don't pay the same for a tie log in sycamore as you would white oak.  If you do, you'll get a higher percentage of sycamore than you do of white oak.  You need to adjust your price to your lumber markets. 

Mills will have different grades ranging from an upper grade and down through low grade.  It reflects the amount of defect.  When I graded logs for a bigger mill, a log that had excessive sweep ended up being dropped to a #2 or #3 and had a significant loss of volume.  We didn't cut ties at that mill, but mills that do have a #3 and a tie.  Buying low grade and ties at the same price is a recipe for disaster. 

We had several markets for side cuts.  In the off species, like sycamore or elm, our volume was too low, so we made it into pallet stock.  For large logs, I could cut a tie and 3½ x 6 as jacket boards.  It might be a bit more waste, but its made up in time spent on a low grade log. 

We didn't sell much to the flooring market.  None close, and we always sent 2A Com or less.  I had a grade market and a casket market for red oak.  Casket was a good place to park some 1 Com and a lot of 2 Com.  We had standing orders for 1 Com and btr.  We also sold a F1F.  Some 1 Com will fall into that grade.  Some markets have a select grade.

When it comes to grade on a tie, you have to consider the alternative of breaking down a tie into lumber.  Most all logs will have a cant on the inside.  Its the most efficient way to get rid of low grade.  A tie has 44 bf of lumber.  If a tie is fetching $25, that means it runs about $570/Mbf.  Sometimes you'll have a tie with a clear face.  Should you go after the higher value lumber or leave it as a tie?

If you break down the tie, you'll come out with about 34 bf of lumber.  Maybe a bit more if you cut a mix of 4/4 and 5/4.  You'll have a piece of blocking 3½ x 6.  If that fetches $400/Mbf, $5.60.  Take that off the tie price, and you'll have to make $19.40 in lumber to break even.  Now you're up to needing $970/Mbf to break even on the lumber.  Hard to break even at those prices.  Your results may vary given your marketplace for various grades of lumber and prices for ties and blocking.  I had bridge timber orders where the price was high enough that it made sense to leave FAS lumber on all 4 sides.  You need to do the math to come up with a good cutting solution.  This is true for all species.  Price logs accordingly.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Peter Drouin

That is all good Ron. Over here If I don't pay what the big mills pay. I don't get logs.
W Pine has 2 grads. #1  and pallet, for pricing. Hemlock, straight through to 16 longer would be more $

Over here the hot thing is crane matts. Low grade hardwood logs 16' with a 10" top'
Went from .30 a BF to .52 a BF for the log.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

I wish my flooring market bought F1F. I  make several F1F boards into stringers since the other side is 2com or worse.

I pay $.35 doyle scale on tie/pallet logs and $.50 on grade oak that has 3 clear sides and more than 16'' x 8' or 10' delivered to my mill. I do buy some on the landing and subtract the trucking from the total pay on the lot.

I still cut all my stuff to width with the mill and either edge on the mill or through the edger. The stringers get cut to length with a dewalt metal cut off saw equiped with a 12'' irwin wood blade. the table and stop is made from lumber and screws. We try to run 1500 plus stringers each week as I have a standing order for that many. I  thought I might never cut any more pallet lumber after making the first 800 boards that way. I kept working on my set up and it gets easier.My wife  or my 15 yo son does all our cutting off. They either one can make 600 in less than 6 hours.

I M O it takes too long to grow the wood to not get all of it out of a log into something useable.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Okrafarmer

Quote from: paul case on August 18, 2016, 08:56:34 AM
I M O it takes too long to grow the wood to not get all of it out of a log into something useable.
PC

Yep, agreed.

Also, all these things assume you are not retailing any wood.

You know, if some of us were smart, maybe we would invent a new log scale-- the RR Tie Jacket Scale.  :o

It might be something like "Tie Jacket Scale BF = Doyle - (Length x 6)"

Then your pricing you pay per tie log would be something like $10 + (Tie Jacket Scale BF x $.25) for one species, and $10 + (Tie Jacket Scale BF x $.175) for another species, etc. A really undesirable species, that you can still make a tie out of, might be $10 only, the price you're willing to pay for the tie itself, if the jacket lumber is useless.

I can abbreviate my new scale as TJS.
::)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

I don't know about now, but when I checked in my area three years ago, the buyer was purchasing any hardwood except tulip poplar and cottonwoods. he paid $22 / tie at the time. Each tie had to be a minimum of 8'6" after being square trimmed.

To me, that 8'6" after square trim is one of the biggest problems with ties, because in order to square trim it, you really ought to have the logs about 9' long to start with, or close. Every inch counts when you're bucking a tree-- sometimes two inches can make $10-20 worth of difference in price for a tree worth of logs, or even more if you just miss a valuable grade in a particular log, or worse yet, more than one log. Having to cut a tie log 4-8" longer than an 8' saw log is annoying for a logger, especially if he's not sure whether he's increasing the money he earns by doing so, or reducing it.
:-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

We cut log 8'8 . The tie company runs it thru chops to 8'6 . They don't want 9 because the additional weight and such for transportation.ties here 29 delivered. Logs start at 500 bdft and up. There's alot of tie mills here...
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

The buyer here wouldn't allow any sizable end cracks-- seems like you'd have to trim more than an inch off each end not to have any big end cracks, but maybe markets are different where you are, or maybe I misunderstood the buyer.

The principle is still the same-- 8'8 vs. 8'2 if 2" trim is enough for an 8' lumber  log.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Firewood is a perfectly legitimate use of side slabs and what would be lumber, if you can process firewood and sell it for more money than you can peddle the boards for. It's just going to depend on your available markets.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

bkaimwood

Hats off to all my fellow sawyers who saw ties...with such slim margins, all the handling, the first thing comes to mind is you guys need SPACE!!! Which I don't have...plus I hear guys say they're buying tie logs at .25c a bf...I can't buy a truckload of firewood for under .35c... like I said, god bless you!! Much respect...
bk

killamplanes

Here u can put saver in there shaped like a capital I (eye) . That's probly not the name but we Hammer them in it slows the Crack down. But if u get to cutting ties old logs are usually not good because of cracks. And heat of the summer, u have to move quantity keep fresh logs and bundles moving in summer no waiting 2 months to turn in a load. Here ring shake is bad in sycamore probly half won't cut tie. Other species also water oak, etc. Red oak often suprises ya and looks good and cuts with air pockets size of ur fist. Very frustrating cutting ties at times but rewarding other times but is'nt everything :D
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Sweetgum is favored fairly well for ties around here, as well as all the oaks.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: killamplanes on August 18, 2016, 09:53:42 PM
Here u can put saver in there shaped like a capital I (eye) . That's probly not the name but we Hammer them in it slows the Crack down. But if u get to cutting ties old logs are usually not good because of cracks. And heat of the summer, u have to move quantity keep fresh logs and bundles moving in summer no waiting 2 months to turn in a load. Here ring shake is bad in sycamore probly half won't cut tie. Other species also water oak, etc. Red oak often suprises ya and looks good and cuts with air pockets size of ur fist. Very frustrating cutting ties at times but rewarding other times but is'nt everything :D





So how do you get your $$$ back when you buy logs that don't make it as a tie.
For me If I miss a defect in a log I lose $$$ on that log. I might save some lumber, But, not all of it.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

killamplanes

I wouldn't say u lose money u just don't make much turning it into pallet stock. Other than the loss in kerf and time the bdft is still there. And the price per bdft is close to the same. It's just less sawing and time to take a tie. Remember the most profitable tie is 4 cuts. But when u get into 18in logs etc ur talking 10-14 cuts of course dependent on ur lumber thicknesses.  Even though those boards may have the same value bdft to tie bdft. Its the takin to create a board versus 7x9.. it's not for everybody. And u will find tie logs are not for every logger or logging job. Some timbers are to big of trees to get good ties from. The 13-16 in range is were the ties are profitable. And some loggers see to much waist cutting a 10ft down at top of tree to an 8,8. I get that but bdft difference price here is let's say low end 350 blocking 500-650 tie. I log to and years ago I fault the system understanding why I would cut down logs to tie length and not just call it all blocking. Then at the mill they would go back thru ur logs rebuck them and take ties. Well if they can do I can to.. so live and learn..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

I think some are struggle to see were we can give 60 cents for a log aND get 60 cents for finished tie. It's because of Doyle scale. It's very favorable to mill for small logs under 15in. I can cut a tie and board or 2 of a log scaling 32bdft. But the tie 44bdft plus couple boards. That's why we make money on the scale. Nobody is cheating anybody it's just the scale..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

paul case

That got me at first too.
A 12'' ten ft log scales 40.
A 8'8'' tie from it scales 46 bdft. Those usually make a couple 1x4 or 1x6 as well.

I need a little more than overrun to cut ties, however the low grade lumber from the middle of a grade log makes a real nice tie. I sell some that have 3 sides clear.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Okrafarmer

That's why I don't use the Doyle scale-- it's very deceiving to reality when using a bandmill, especially. I use International. Even on International, there's usually over-run (unless you have a weirdly shaped log, or a lot of defect).
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

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