I have a 78 international 1200 4X4 pickup and thinking of using it to power my belsaw (temporarily) but the starter will not disengage and stop. It works fine on the bench. I suspect the drive gear is getting hung up on the flywheel and the spring cannot kick it out. Any ideas how to fix this?
Quote from: Trapper John on April 28, 2016, 07:18:56 AM
I have a 78 international 1200 4X4 pickup and thinking of using it to power my belsaw (temporarily) but the starter will not disengage and stop. It works fine on the bench. I suspect the drive gear is getting hung up on the flywheel and the spring cannot kick it out. Any ideas how to fix this?
Does it get continuous power when cranking on the truck? As in it turns itself forever after you stop? If it keeps powering itself it is the starter solenoid, usually a separate piece that controls the power supply to the starter. Bench testing the starter alone will make the starter seem fine, until it is reinstalled and the solenoid keeps supplying power. I had a bronco do the same thing, except the solenoid would catch on fire...
I had to read twice. Thought it said international pickup won't start. :D
Sometimes if you have low voltage a starter will keep cranking. Solenoid gets spot wielded together I believe :P
I second the starter solenoid being bad. A generic starter solenoid will likely work. The most common was the style used on Ford pickups for several decades.
Did you try to use a wire to the solenoid to bypass the ignition switch . IHC solenoids have a brown cap on the solenoids because of the heat from the manifold . You may not even find one like that anymore . WOW I was going to offer to send you a starter till I saw where you are at. Where is Galena?
Low voltage at the starter is generally the culprit, battery or cables either one. Sometimes the solenoid survives and sometimes it doesn't. It is possible that the solenoid wire has voltage anytime the key is on, but that would be rare, and the starter would usually try to engage as soon as you turned the key on.
Thanks for the ideas guys. Actually I replaced the solenoid from one out of an GMC dump truck which had a longer spring than the International solenoid so I used it thinking it would be stronger. I bench tested the starter with the new solenoid installed and it was OK. It is not the wiring harness because I disconnected both wires to the solenoid while it was cranking and it did not stop. The battery is good so I will check cables next. Gearhead, Galena is 200 miles west of Fairbanks on the Yukon River, and no road to this village of 500. Things are expensive except moose meat and water.
I am not sure about the spring swap you are talking about, solenoid or bendix. You can (if you have available) use a ford type fender mounted solenoid and bypass the solenoid on the starter. I did this in the mountains on a ford diesel to get home once and wore the pickup out without changeing it back, and have done it to multiple gm pickups, just for the accessability to the solenoid with no problems.
I cleaned up my cables/clamps but it is still cranking. Guess I will order a new solenoid from NAPA. Starmac, my solenoid is connected to a lever that throws the Bendix at the same time the main contacts are activated. Are you saying I can bypass that lever and just the rotation of the starter will throw the Bendix? Another thing is that after I pull the cable off the battery to stop the starter, the solenoid returns to disengaged and I can fasten the cable back on the battery. Kind of eliminates the spot welded idea.
It just sounds like the coil inside the solenoid is still getting power...
This is a sample on how they work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/solenoid~0.jpg)
When you pull the battery cable do you kill the motor? If it has the lever arrangement as you mentioned the gear could get hung up on the flywheel, that would cause the solenoid to stay engaged. If the motor dies when you pull the cable that would release the gear and the solenoid would deactivate.
Kbeitz,
Not to confuse the issue, but look at this solenoid on my trencher. The battery (and alternator, blue wire) is connected on the right, starter on the left and key (black wire) on the little terminal. Works great. What are the other two lugs on the top used for???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20160428_Solenoid.JPG)
I think what you have is a reversing solenoid. They are used on winches.
Big dollar solenoid.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/reversing_solenoid.jpg)
Trapper John, if yours has the lever assembly it will not work. The way I did mine was hotwired the solenoid on the starter on the gm starters and put the remote solenoid on the fender well, so thet I could easily use a remote starter button. This would not work in your case as, the solenoid would still be getting power.
Somwe of the older solenoids had two small wires on them, one was to get 12 volts from the ignition switch and the other was to supply a full 12 volts to the ignition itself while the starter was robbing voltage, is there anyway you could have reversed them.
What happens if you unhook the ignition wire and only leave the battery cable connected and jump across the terminals to start it? If it stays engaged then, I would think the gear on the starter is hanging in the flywheel and spinning the starter.
An easy way to check this is to pull the coil wire and hit the ignition, if it still trys to crank the motor when you let off, it would be the solenoid, if it stops, your bendix gear is hanging in.
I have disconnected the ignition wire so I am agreeing with theory that the gear is hanging up on the flywheel. Which leads to the question, where is the problem? Is it the flywheel or is it the starter gear? The gear looked OK when I had the starter off. I have heard of shimming starters but never tried it. Would I shim the top bolt or the bottom bolt?
The solenoid is not just a relay on that starter it also engages the gear to the flywheel. When you stop cranking the spring in it should push back the plunger and disengage the starter gear from the flywheel and open the contacts. It could be a alignment or damaged gear tooth issue. If all you did was change to solenoid when you worked on it..... I would say it may be a assembly issue as in when you put it back together you got something in the wrong place. I have seen some starters of that type that if you got it wrong when you put it back together and hit start when you went to stop cranking the solenoid plunger would not return and keep the contacts closed. Makes you glad you had a hatchet in the tool box when the insulation starts to melt off the cables. Bench testing it never indicated the problem as it was not obvious. Another meaningful learning experience. It sure was exciting. :o
The only starters I have ever had to shim were the gm starters that had the bolts facing straight uo, in which case you shimmed them both.
Have you by chance had the bendix gear off and replaced it back on backwards? The beveled end of the gear goes toward the tranny.
Starmac, I did not have the Bendix gear off. Maybe when I energize the solenoid in the normal way it causes a short to the battery cable which would keep it energized. Removing all battery power to solenoid releases it and removes the short, sort of resetting itself. Both solenoids I have tried are old so this could be a possibility. I think a new solenoid is next before I mess around with shims and alignment. With shims I can only adjust distance the Bendix travels into ring gear (or angle). I cannot adjust how close the Bendix is to ring gear. Does this make sense?
I would still try shimming it out with a couple of washers. I had a ford starter that would travel too far and lock itself to the ring gear destroying the bendix when it did. it took about five replacements ( under warranty) before the store figured out that the rebuilder was leaving out a washer at the front of the shaft that limited the amount of travel for the gear.
On my Detriot motors if it's been -10 or colder & batteries are low, I've had the starter stick on. I'll shut battery master switch off & back on again & most times it stops it from turning. But if I leave it on to long i'll have to tap on the solenoid to get the contact apart. Mine are Delco solenoids which I've taken apart & took emery cloth to get a better contact till I can get a new one. That's what I meant when I said"wielded together",the inner contacts get hot & stick together. If it's that cold I'll put jumpers on while I'm heating the motor to avoid starting sticking problems. And I do keep two good 1000cca batteries in each machine. But most times if it's that cold I'll wait till warms up a little to avoid other cold weather hazard's
Hello,
If the solenoid is part of the starter then there is a pull in winding and a hold in winding. Once the starter starts ( pull In) then the hold in winding takes less amps and will lock in if the flywheel ring gear is worn or maybe if the spring is incorrect on the solenoid.
hope this helps.
Marty
Did you ever get this sorted out?
I just went through this on a 79 f600. Put in a new solenoid. Turned out i over tightened the posts. So when I hooked up the battery the the starter would turn the motor over. Super scary when the truck tried to take off with me under the hood.
The over tight posts got welded together with the current and created a continuous path for power to the starter. A new solenoid solved the problem...
Good luck
And do disconnect the battery when under the hood. I've even hit it with the oil filter wrench on the ranger.
Put a new starter drive on it. Steve
the delco starters with the mounted solenoid are different then starters with remote solenoids. The large wire is hot and runs the motor. The larger wire to the small stud comes from the ignition switch (or from a separate relay or solenoid used as a relay) The smaller wire from the other stud is the ignition bypass. When you turn the switch 12V energizes the magnet and pulls the lever that engages the drive to the flywheel. When it gets to the bottom of it's travel it closes the contacts and powers the starter motor. It also supplies 12V up the smaller wire to the coil to provide hotter spark for starting. Points can only use 6 volts and use a resistor coil or a ballast resistor when in the run position.
So if the drive gear sticks into the flywheel ring gear the starter will continue to run until the battery goes dead.
Most likely a different starter will solve it. The nose has a bushing that can be bad or the is a stop ring on the shaft that may be missing . Other wise first inspect the flywheel ring gear for burrs. Usually you can just file them off. Next install the starer without the solenoid and engage it manually to see if the gears engage without binding. You can use a wire feeler gauge to check the clearance. You can't shim a international starter like a GM it mounts differently. I have never seen the spring have anything to do with it. The rpm of the running engine throws the drive back,the spring just keeps it there.