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Standby power: propane versus diesel?

Started by LeeB, February 03, 2009, 02:29:26 AM

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LeeB

What's the pros and cons here. I'm gonna get a standby generator. The power goes out for long spell around my place way to often to rely on my little gas job. Which ya'll think is best.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

stonebroke

In the North propane is better because the fuel will not gell no matter what.

Stonebroke

Norm

I looked long and hard at them after our last ice storm and decided propane was the way to go. Unfortunately I still have not bought one.

submarinesailor

It depends on if you are looking for life cycle cost or just the short term costs.  In the long run, taking into consideration the maintenance and fuel treatment cost, propane could be the cheaper.  You can just let propane sit in the tank for many years and it is still good to go.  You can't do that with diesel.  Also, there is very little injector/carburetor maintenance.  And the engine oil stays a lot cleaner.

If you want very high reliability with diesel fuel, you ready should drain it, run it thru a dryer and add some treatment to it each year.  We, the DESC Energy Support Center, have had major boiler plants on military installations go down big time because they did not take care of their #2 oil.

Lee, it sounds like you are looking at a backup generator for the house (Lindy)???  I have been doing a lot of research into backups and it looks to me like the Guardian/Generac series gives the best deal around – automatic switch gear is included in some of their packages.  I hope to pickup and install a 17KW propane this summer.  Any of you other guys have good or bad things to say about them????

Bruce

pineywoods

Propane is probably the best all things considered. It does have one drawback, especially for you guys in the far frigid north. Like gasoline and diesel, propane has different formulations depending on the season. Fill your tank with the summer blend, and you may be in trouble when the temp turns cold enough. Propane won't vaporize or "boil off" below a certain temp. That critical temp varies depending on the blend. I've seen a few cases where it was necessary to heat the tank....carefully ::)

Best bet if you have it is natural gas......
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

WH_Conley

The guy that owns the little store down the road put in propane. Knowing him he looked at all the pro's and con's, was talking about it for a few months. His parents live just behind the store and he tied into their tank, has automatic switching gear.
Bill

stonebroke

Pineywoods
the best way to solve that is to put the propane tank underground.

Stonebroke

beenthere

Quote from: pineywoods on February 03, 2009, 08:14:36 AM
Propane is probably the best all things considered. It does have one drawback, especially for you guys in the far frigid north. Like gasoline and diesel, propane has different formulations depending on the season. Fill your tank with the summer blend, and you may be in trouble when the temp turns cold enough. ..........

First I've ever heard that propane has different forumulations, as we get fills year-around up 'nort, independent of time-of-year.
Do you know of where more information about this can be found?   I'd like to confirm if it is true.   :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sawguy21

Most of the units we sell run on NG, they are also set up for propane if required. NG is very clean and convenient, maintenance is limited to annual oil changes and air filter replacement.
Diesel would be the way to go if propane or NG is not readily available but as was mentioned, the fuel system must be kept clean. Otherwise, algae and water will accumulate.
The Guardian units are reasonably priced but our experience has been that they require more frequent service calls. Hard starting and the switching are the usual complaints. The cabinets have been flimsy but they appear to be addressing that.
The biggest issue is finding a knowledgeable service dealer, a lot of retailers really do not know how to set up and maintain them. The big box stores are the worst.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

renegadecj

I'm looking at the same thing...backup power for power outages, but also wanted something that would run in case of a national emergency.  We have natural gas, but a friend who who works for xcel energy said not to depend on the flow of gas in case of emergency.  I own a couple of 100# propane tanks which would work just fine.  How long can a generator run on a propane tank?

Where is the best place to buy a backup generator?

Gary_C

Back in the 1990's I went thru an ice storm that knocked out power for almost two weeks and we depended on a 55 kw pto generator for all that time. Afterwards I decided to look into getting a stationary generator for standby power as we were milking cows and standby power was a must.

I found a surplus generator for sale that I thought was just right for what I needed and the price was right. It also was a very interesting unit and I was ready to buy that generator. It was only about $3000 if I remember right and it was a Solar brand gas turbine generator that was formerly in one of the tunnels on the Pennsylvannia Turnpike for emergency lighting and was replaced by a new generator.

But before I bought that generator, I had the salvage company send me the specs. As it turned out, that gas turbine would consume anywhere from 8 to 32 gallons per hour of diesel and that meant it would burn between 200 and 600 gallons of diesel per day.  :o :o

Needless to say, I still have that pto powered generator. With a 130 hp tractor running all day even that would consume 60 to 70 gallons per day.

So if you are looking at a standby generator, look closely at the fuel consumption and consider how much storage is needed. Those numbers are available, but not easily found unless you look. Problem is those numbers do not sell generators. Plus you have to maintain and exercise those generators regularly or they will not work when you need them. That's one thing for a large company with a maintenance staff to do, but for the rest of us it is just another project that probably will not get done.

And many of those large businesses that must have standby generators have them connected to natural gas. Small propane tanks will not work, they will freeze up as the NER (normal evaporation rate) is not nearly high enough. You need a vaporizer.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Larry

When I worked for the telephone company we had gas onan generators on the repair trucks, propane on all power carts for underground work, and big diesels for central office backups.  By far the propane units were the most reliable with zero maintenance.  The diesels were just as reliable but maintenance was required on a monthly basis to insure this reliability.

You might watch for a generator from a chicken house...they are too small to run the new chicken houses and have been selling on the cheap.  There were several adds on craigslist this week for them...of course they were asking a premium.  As soon as we get power back I going to do some serious scouting for one...if I turn up two I'll send ya a PM.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Ironwood

I'll be keeping an eye out on this post,as eventually I'd like to have a unit here (10kw or so)


Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

WoodMiller

I have a Generac 15KW propane standby generator and it has been very reliable - biggest maintenance issue was to remember to check the battery water when we changed the oil.  The battery is on a trickle charger and can lose water over the year.  Didn't discover this until the battery blew up.  The other issue we had was our propane supplier.  They "don't do generators" (propane ads notwithstanding).  Had to buy the tank (already had one 100 gallon tank, wanted another).........

Wayne
WoodMizer LT40 Superhydraulic LT40HDD51

Sprucegum

In my experience propane didn't jell till temp got down to -20 or -15 with a wind. A little skirt around the tank and a pan full of charcoal briquets gets you going again. If you're going with it get a decent sized tank- 500 gal. - and be happy no matter how long the lines are down.

submarinesailor

If I remember the numbers correctly, the 17KW Guardian consumes about 2.56 gals of propane per hour at full load.  With a 250 gal tank full to 80%, that's about 78 hours of full load.  I think it drops to about 1.6 at 50% load or 125 hours. 

Bruce

Mr Mom

I have thought about this and can get a 1000 gal tank from my dad.
Just doing research now.
Will be watching this post.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

Radar67

There is an article in Mother Earth News this month that address emergency power. Propane is recommended in the article because it will not go bad from sitting around for years, it is not in high demand like gasoline and diesel during emergencies, and you can store large quantities in fairly small spaces.

Someone mentioned a national emergency and not being able to get propane or natural gas, in that senario, I would prefer a diesel powered generator. You can always filter and burn your used cooking oil, and if needed, make your own by rendering parts the game animals you will have to be using to survive or the oil from parked cars.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

beenthere

Quote from: Sprucegum on February 03, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
In my experience propane didn't jell till temp got down to -20 or -15 with a wind. A little skirt around the tank and a pan full of charcoal briquets gets you going again. If you're going with it get a decent sized tank- 500 gal. - and be happy no matter how long the lines are down.

Would't think wind chill would affect an "object" like a propane tank, or could it?
No problem around here with propane and -30° F temps. But you've got me wondering... ;D

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Larry

Quote from: Radar67 on February 03, 2009, 04:43:56 PM
Propane is recommended in the article because it will not go bad from sitting around for years, it is not in high demand like gasoline and diesel during emergencies, and you can store large quantities in fairly small spaces.

The day after the ice storm propane vanished...and you could not get tanks re-filled or find pre-filled tanks.  People use the small tanks for cooking and ventless space heaters.  I had two 30 pound tanks that I lent out just for that pupose.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

pineywoods

Woodmiller I have also run into the "we don't do generators" problem. My supplier will gladly fill the 250 gallon tank I rent from them, but absolutely refuse to fill the 30 gallon tank welded to the frame on my motorhome. Other than capacity, the 2 tanks are identical...The genset on the motorhome is propane. They also won't fill my grill bottles from their delivery truck... The local phone company changed out their small gensets from diesel to propane to cut down on maintenance. First time the power went out for 24 hours, they found out the propane supplier wouldn't refill their tanks either.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Polly

i bought a honda with gas engine    wish i had bought a pto unit i already had a jd diesel tactor you might say i goofed :D :D :)

Ironwood

I am hoping for a gas well supply for my NG/ generator needs. We will know for sure by summer if the well is a go. They just punched a spud (vertical ) well on the folks up the street, if it continues to hold pressure and produce they'll be here in there next drill cycle. I had no idea the consumption needs of a medium generator was so great. It would be tough and costly to get enough fuel for a serious national disaster lasting many weeks. I guess the strategy would be to run it as needed for pumping water (175' well here ) and other necesseties. The well is our biggest shortcoming during outages. I do have some catchment options, but the rain would need to be "safe" :-\. I have no heat worries, as I can always burn my inventory to stay warm in our little effiecent house.  :o That would be expensive heat!!!

  Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

farmerdoug

Beenthere, 

   The problem is gas companies like to cheat in the warmer months with Butane.  They either mix it or run it straight in the summer in the north or all year down south.  Butane will not vaporize good below 20°F, just try leaving a lighter out in the cold.  There are other -anes that are used for fuel also.  They just ones that liquidfy easily.  Of course they all do not have the same heating value but are close though.
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Gary_C

Propane has a boiling point of around -42 deg F. That means that propane will not vaporize below that temperature. However that is misleading because if you draw the liquid or vapors too fast from your tank, it will still freeze at temperatures higher than -42 F.

For things like engines that draw large amounts of liquid propane, you must have large enough lines so the pressure drops very little and then feed the liquid into a vaporizer. For smaller appliances like furnaces and hot water heaters, it is best to have a large tank as it will act like a large heat exchanger to keep the vapors flowing. However when the liquid changes to vapor in the tank, it cools and can freeze at temperatures above the boiling point. IT generally will work OK till you get to about -30 F and then it's time to worry.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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