Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber

[Abethetenacious]

On a positive note yes I have seen a tract of timber survive 3 cuttings. In fact that was all that was ever harvested on that patch.best timber I ever cut, I'm talking walnut 100+ inches.there were 6 that big. And the white oak, there are guys I used to work with that won't talk to me anymore because I sent them pictures of the white oak. And by the way it's been 5years and we're gonna cut some more next week

[Jeff]

You are not listening. 3 cuttings of proper management versus 3 high grade cuttings are 2 totally different things.

[Abethetenacious]

Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.

[mike_belben]

I think this thread has encouraged me to engage a forester in my quest of improving my forest.

I have no specific need/reason to cut at this point, but I do wish to improve the timber growing there

So far, a chainsaw is the best fertilizer i have encountered.

[Jeff]

Cheeky. That's funny I'm glad to know you r tough enough not to kick me off the forum, for a difference of opinion. And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.

I don't kick off for a difference of opinion. I kick off for attitude and the way you treat other members. And the worst thing you can say to me here, in my house, is that you have freedom of speech here. As long as one is respectful of our rules and our members, there is a lot of latitude.

[Abethetenacious]

Me thinks we be talking about the same thing.but due to differences in geography and vernacular we are butting heads.i believe responsible forestry management lead's to  a sustainable forest.

[Gary_C]

And yes everyone has one most of them stink. I think we're in big dog to weigh a ton territory , just sayin'.

Me thinks we don't have a clue about what you are saying.  :

[Abethetenacious]

Don't take advice from me I'm conflicted, I grew up in Florida and live in Missouri.

Pics to follow

[Gary_C]

Conflicted, confused or a bit too hip for our understanding.  ???

[John Mc]

Me thinks we be talking about the same thing.but due to differences in geography and vernacular we are butting heads.i believe responsible forestry management lead's to  a sustainable forest.

Yes, but high-grading is not exacty the poster child for responsible forestry, and as others have noted, Clear Cuts are not necessarily a bad thing - the treatment has been abused in some cases, and when it is, it certainly makes for a dramatic photo op. However, as others have noted, there are situations where that is what is called for. It could be something to reach a silvicultural objective, or around here it's often done for wildlife habitat (creating an opening for early successional growth).

[Puffergas]

I agree with Jeff, clear cuts can be a healthy choice. High grading leads to trouble. Clear cuts doesn't mean the whole forest needs leveled, just the troubled areas or plantation sections, etc. It all depends on the variables.

[Andries]

I've seen "high grading" defined as:
Cutting trees with the highest value and leaving those with lower value, often diseased or malformed trees, is referred to as high grading. It is sometimes called selective logging, and confused with selection cutting, the practice of managing stands by harvesting a proportion of trees.

Selection cutting and a forester developed plan is prolly what the OP is looking for.
This Canadian is covered in snowflakes, and enjoying this lil'bit of drama.

[Abeman]

Wow! Super helpful posts guys. Even the troll served a purpose in bringing out a dynamic I wouldn't have thought through otherwise.

Getting a proper appraisal and plan from a forester seems like the proper approach but I'm curious if foresters will work a detailed plan for the small size of my tract (roughly 17 acres). It seems from my reading, they are involved on very large projects...mine is failry small, no?

[mike_belben]

If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity.  Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.

[Texas Ranger]

If A is from Missouri, yes, he could cut 3 times and not hurt the hardwood/walnut on a tract.  It is called selective harvest and a few trees of the size he mentioned is a significant harvest.  I worked with some of the big hardwoods in Mo, and that is not unusual.  Used to be a place called Pioneer Forest that was in the big hardwood business, a few trees an acre was significant for them.

[mike_belben]

Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit."  Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit."    Everything 12+ goes. 

If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small.  I cut many a 90yr old 10" white oak this year.  If they get trapped in the shade of a dominant canopy hog they just kinda stall out and age.  1/16" growth rings and dark chocolate heartwood. 

It wasnt as apparent to me until id delivered firewood to a few small residential lots with huge absolutely prime straight oaks, 60' of 4SC.  Awe inspiring timber just a mile or two from a sea of short  branchy pulp forests of the same species in the same soil map.  I start looking into the ownership history and the common denominator is a company that either did or didnt own it.  The ones who have owned nearly all the acres on this plateau at one time or another, going back over a century.

Cliff notes:  high grading sucks.

[Abethetenacious]

Finally someone I can relate to. Mason Dixon line, apples+ oranges,all that jazz. Also I'm a troll now, I do this for a living

[chevytaHOE5674]

Here they like to dress it up by calling it "diameter limit."  Naturally the magic diameter is anything the mill will buy which is 12" so we are gonna "select cut on a 12" diameter limit."    Everything 12+ goes. 

If you do this a few times you are left with only trees that are old and stunted and small.

A true diameter limit cut removes ALL trees over a certain diameter even the junk so you aren't "high grading" you are just choosing a different management style. So given the proper rotation length (stand harvested with a diameter limit cut has a much much longer harvest interval) it isn't the worst thing. I can show you stands that were D limit cut and given 60+ years to grow and they look about the same as stands that were cut every 10 years and thinned throughout the D range.

[coxy]

 

[Puffergas]

I knew an interesting fella that bought timer at what he called "12 and 12." That was 12" from the ground and min. 12" dia. That applies only to valuable timber. The low grade stuff he left standing.

[bushmechanic]

Well in reguards to high grading, here in Newfoundland we had to give it up and moved to clear cutting all stands of timber. All areas are different and what works in one place won't work somewhere else. When we select cut it damaged the residual trees to where they would rot and lose their commercial value. Now that we clear cut in 50 years a stand can be harvested again and get the most value out of it.

[curdog]

All timber types are different,  but shade intolerant species do best in clear cuts. For planting pine or natural regeneration of yellow poplar,  we clear cut. We use shelterwood harvest in oak,  and have to be careful that they don't turn into high grades. If all of the good trees are cut,  and you only leave undesirable species,  then that is where your seed source for the next generation of trees comes from.

[OH logger]

I agree with coxy...  but also why does basically everyone say to go with a forester?? are ALL loggers crooks?? I sure don't think I am and I buy a lot of timber with out a forester holding my hand AND I take great offense if anyone thinks I'm hosing the landowner. I treat EVERY woods and landowner as if it were mine and pay as much as I can and still make some money. I know some loggers are bad apples but there are still some good ones in the bushel. I have noticed on this forum sometimes loggers are on the same plane as the tax collectors were in biblical times. in a lot of coffee shops around here it is that way with people who have heard old stories that may or may not be true about loggers that may have been dead for years, but I would expect on a forestry AND logging forum it might be a little more balanced. for instance our STATE foresters RARELY ever go out and see a sale they marked get harvested. if they would they might learn a little (or a lot). just because a logger didn't graduate from a fancy university doesn't mean much at all in MY OPINION. also no 2 foresters are going to look at the same tree/stand/tract the same. that much I do know cause I work with 5ish foresters on a regular basis (when I'm not apparently ruining woods on a private basis). sorry to vent but that's MY OPINIONS

[Abethetenacious]

If a clear cut is the best scenario, can you still call yourself a Logger? I have never run into a more entrenched mindset, but hey I live in the hardwoods Mecca. What would I know, btw all This over 17 acres.

[John Mc]

OH Logger: I don't think anyone is saying all loggers are evil or that all foresters are good. In my experience, the % of dishonest slimeballs is independent of their profession. There are good and bad in every profession. The trick is in figuring out which is which.