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Need some advice on forestry for my novel to make sure it's accurate!

Started by JakeCoetzee.12, October 05, 2015, 08:32:26 AM

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JakeCoetzee.12

I'm writing a novel and a main theme of it concerns forestry. It's a fictional town with a fictional farm, this one specific to Red Maple trees. I need accurate information on how trees are planted (how far apart would red maple trees be? 25 - 35 feet?), which soil is good and which is bad (I chose red maple since its robust and can survive almost any circumstances - I think?). In my novel the trees, red maples, are currently 15 years of age. Is this an adequate age to start harvesting?
I also would like to know if you can help with irrigation: my farm is fed from a nearby waterfall/river by pump functioning via generator. The town I created is dry in terms of little rainfall, but the river/waterfall is fed by underground springs - so it's a town rich in water but still very dry. So I settled on artificial irrigation/dry irrigation (please correct me wherever I'm wrong or inaccurate!). My farm is a total of 7500 Acres of land, divided the following way: 3000 Acres used for forestry (red maples). I currently have each tree spaced 25 feet apart with 25 feet between rows (used a tree spacing calculator). Is this accurate? This leaves me with: 70 trees per acre, meaning 210 000 trees on 3000 Acres of land. The rest of the farm is divided: 2000 Acres for livestock; 1500 Acres for crops, leaving me with 500 Acres of unused land, a part of this on which the farmhouse will be located... I want a workshop on the farm where the wood can be processed either fully or to some degree of efficiency - if this makes sense???? I'd just like to know a brief overview of what such a warehouse would look like (size) and some machinery that would be in it.

With regards to irrigation, I currently have it like this: a pump feeds the sprinkler system from the river/falls. The sprinkles are lined up in rows in-between the trees. What I'd like to know is: How big/strong should the pump be? Which make and model would be sufficient for 3000 Acres of land? What sprinkler system would I use and how many sprinklers per row of trees? And how many trees would I have per row?

I also have an artificial river running through the farm past the house - it's fed by pumps as well but with a kind of fishpond effect - the pumps circulate the water so it doesn't go to waste and the river continuously flows. It's just for a nice nature effect, making the artificial farm appear more natural. If this is accurate can this river somehow be used for irrigation as well?

Any other information is more than welcome, and please feel free to correct me where I'm inaccurate and/or wrong. I want to write as accurate as I can, even if all the information I require won't be used in the novel.
Since starting this project I've gained a ton of interest in forestry and agriculture. I am from a lineage of farmers, though I grew up in the city and never learnt the processes involved. Unfortunately most of the farmers in my family are no longer available and forestry is much different to the kind of farming they're used to. Thank you in advance!

Jeff

Welcome to the forum.  I've only got a couple moments this morning, and one of the foresters will have some better information for you I am sure, but just a couple off the cuff comments.   Red maple, as far as I know, is rarely if ever purposely planted as a timber tree. It may be, but I would be very surprised to here it was. It is usually considered an inferior or much less desirable species than other locally native hardwoods. Hardwoods are typically not planted in mono-culture plantations such as you describe

15 years for harvest? No. More like 40-50.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

JakeCoetzee.12

Hi

Thanks for the reply. Is there any maple trees that would be considered for timber? Or which trees are most likely to fit this scenario? I appreciate the info!

Ron Wenrich

I'm not sure where your farm is located.  Being dry would sound like the western US.  But, I wouldn't use red maple as a selection crop.  Hardwood plantations are generally rare.  They would be more rare in arid areas. Plantations are more apt to be pine due to the greater fiber yield.

My choice for a hardwood plantation would be black walnut.  Fairly simple process where you have an annual crop of nuts, which produce income.  Also, you have high end log and lumber at some time in the future.  Your red maple could be used to produce maple syrup, but has a lower sugar content then sugar maple.  Walnut would be a faster growing species then the maple if it has a good site, and not as cyclical in the lumber markets. 

I'm not sure that irrigation would be cost effective.  Given the amount of underground water you're projecting, the root system may get down to the ground water.  I guess in the dryer areas that might be ok, but you'll end up feeding more of the surface vegetation then the deeper roots of the trees. 

How long of a time period are you planning in your novel?  You can start your spacing tighter in the early years, then you expand it as the crowns start to close in.  You do various thinnings until you get to where you want to replace your stand with newer plantings.  You would start out with a 10x10 planting in walnut.  That gives you 436 trees/acre. 

We use something called basal area to measure stocking.  You would want to keep the walnut in a stocking level between 80-110 sq ft/acre.  So, your 436 trees would be OK until they get larger in size.  Basal Area (BA) increases with tree size.  BA=.005454*dbh^2.  Dbh is the diameter at 4.5' above the ground.  At 4" dbh, those 436 trees would have a BA of on 38 sq ft/acre.  At 6", that stocking level increases to 85 sq ft per acre, and you would be looking to do some thinning to allow the tops to expand.   These trees would be used more for fuelwood than for lumber.  There would be a steady increase in the taking of trees.  When the trees reach 18", you would only want 56 trees per acre to have a fully stocked stand.  You would now be making lumber and probably selling some veneer.  The stocking levels would also be the same for red maple.

Cutting facilities would depend on your end products.  If you went with red maple, you would be cutting railroad ties, pallet stock and furniture grade lumber.  You could build pallets as a side line and you could make furniture.  They would support the town in many ways.  If you went with walnut, you could also get into nut harvesting and processing.  Nut production would be more of a sideline than an income driver.

Just food for thought.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Scott

Knowing your location or the location of the farm in the novel would be helpful. There are a number of members on here that own and operate Tree Farms that could provide some very real information that might be relative. Do you have a publisher for your novel that desires certain subject matter?
~Ron

John Mc

Ron W gave some great information in his post.

To add some background to what he posted:  One reason that trees are planted more densely initially, and thinned as they start to grow is to encourage them to grow in a form that will be good for timber. Planting densely encourages the trees to grow UP, rather than branch out (basically they are competing for sunlight). The long straight trunks make for better sawlogs - you can get longer straight boards out of them. If trees are open-grown, they will tend to branch more, and put less of their energy into growing UP. Each branch is also a knot in the boards sawed from that part of the tree, which lowers the value of the tree as a sawlog.

As the trees get larger, they start to crowd each other out, which stunts their growth rate - hence the need for thinning as they grow up.

Other than in a nursery (and that is on a much smaller scale than what you are talking about), I've never seen anyone irrigate trees - but maybe some of that is just a function of where I've lived over the years. Generally, trees need sunlight, water, and a climate and soil type appropriate to their species to grow well. If one or more of those are lacking, the growth rate will suffer.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

clearcut

The only tree species that I have seen irrigated are eucalyptus and hybrid poplar, both for pulp. Eucalyptus and poplar in California, and poplar also in Oregon. These plantation used drip irrigation, fertilization through the drip, and close spacing.

Research Short Rotation Intensive Culture for details to include in your novel. That will give spacing and growing periods for various locations that you can match to your novel. Most of these plantations are for biomass (energy), pulp, or composite (particle board, oriented strand board) materials. Sawlogs generally do not work using these techniques as the wide annual rings cause warping in the sawn boards.

As to other aspects of your premise, I cannot see 500 acres have no set purpose, especially for an operation that controls 7,500 acres. The buildings and spot for a sawmill would take only a few acres. For authenticity, if your town is in the western US, reference the Public Land Survey System (PLSS). Land is generally broken down by Township, Section, 1/2 Sections, and quarter Sections.

Also, if you are pumping water, the pump is generally powered directly rather than fed off of a generator. That is possible, but inefficient. Usually when pumping water for irrigation, it is delivered via pipes rather than an open channel to limit evaporation. Given your scenario water would be precious and evaporative loss would be minimized where ever possible. A small pond, fountain or water feature, might be reasonable. Consider an aquaculture project if you need open water near the residence. That would use the water in a way that evaporative losses could be tolerated. You could design it so that it provides a landscape element as well as fish production.


Good luck with your novel.
Carbon sequestered upon request.

JakeCoetzee.12

Thanks Jeff; Ron Wenrich; Ron Scott; John MC; Clearcut:

The novel is set in a completely fictional world, but it would be something very close to Arizona, especially the area of the Superstition Mountains. I want it to be an unnaturally dry place and the farm is quite far away from the underground springs, hence the pumps extract water from the river that's closer, if that makes sense? Basically my town, in this world, relies on the trees for everything: houses, furniture, railroads, etc, since the farm and more specifically, forestry, is its main source of income. I only went with Red Maple because doing research I found that most people said they're able to grow anywhere - I'm thinking I may have gotten some bad information about its usages :). The reason Forestry is a main theme is because my lead character - the protagonist - moves to this town only because her father is one of the top foresters available; and the Chancellor of the town, who bought over the farm ±10 - 20 years ago, wants to reestablish it as the town's main source of income. The reason I selected irrigation is because 1) its so dry; and 2) the owner of the farm wanted to create a separate atmosphere on the farm, a whole different climate - the farm, with its trees are visible from the town and acts as a sort of sight-seeing/hiking/tourist attraction. The mountains are used for hiking (which is usual), so he wants to create a money generating farm as well as a majestic scenery all round - hope this is vivid and understandable :). In terms of money, the owner has spared no expenses, and he's kind of a BIG spender especially if it's unnecessary.

As for the farm, in terms of why I selected generators, is I wanted there to be no electricity on the farm itself, and the house in which the family will stay is also powered by generators - its a very very secluded area this specific farm. I'm still deciding on that - if it doesn't fit the needs I'll cut that idea but I have something in mind with it. Like I said, if it's too foreign of an idea, I'll be happy to cut it. The novel does cover a few main themes that'll be intertwined and it's also meant to be partly suspenseful horror - the happenings that are gonna take place over the course of it - so I need a thick forest and lots of scary scenery, elements, effects and sounds! For example: the forest at night will be scary for the forester's daughter if she had to end up in the middle of it for some reason at night. I need that underlying theme of suspense, and my farm is the main culprit in providing it. :)

I don't currently have a publisher for this novel, it's a new project I embarked on recently. As soon as I've gotten a few chapters down I will send the synopsis and summary to my agent. I've spent the past week and a half on the planning, world creating and research, research, research - it's why I'm here, I need the help of professionals concerning this theme of the novel so I can be as accurate with everything as possible.

What I've gathered is that red maple isn't really a good choice. I've known pine is, but I wanted to go for something different, unless it's the best option available, then I'll go with it. I appreciate the help, you have no idea!

Thanks.

beenthere

Given all the other "fantasy" in the fictional world, then don't name a species. Just plant "trees" and let them do what you want them to do... grow fast with the irrigation and become good fictional wood in the period of time you need it to fit the story.
Avoid the problems that will arise for any species named. Just an opinion...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

Yes, why not. Invent a new species perhaps hybridized from others with the traits you need for your new world
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

John Mc

Sounds interesting.

With that much acreage, you may want to consider more than one type of tree: something that grows quickly for biomass heating (it would be chipped and the chips used for fuel). There are also co-generation plants where chips are burned to produce both heat and electricity. I'm not an expert in this area, but I imagine the electricity part of this would be from a steam driven turbine. Poplar or willow might be something used for this (though others might have better suggestions).

You might have other species for house building/construction (pine is often used for dimensional lumber in the US), and yet others for furniture or similar uses.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Jeff

Remember, monocultures are very susceptible to being wiped out by pests or pathogens. Your novel could take a turn and your fictional forest wiped out by some sort of "bug" unless you diversify your stand. ;)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ianab

Invent yourself a fictional hybrid eucalyptus species, based on the "Lyptus" wood that's grown in Sth America. With the right conditions that can grow useful sawlogs in ~15 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyptus

Not (currently) grown in Nth America, but some Eucalyptus species are, and it fit's your intensive plantation, useful hardwood, short time frame scenario. Planting a large stand of those would also probably create some controversy, which makes for a good story too.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WDH

Pecan orchards are commonly irrigated here in Georgia.  I do not have any specific info about the irrigation, pipes, pumps, etc, but I am sure that you can get that info.  Sounds like an interesting theme. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

John Mc

Quote from: WDH on October 05, 2015, 09:05:59 PM
Pecan orchards are commonly irrigated here in Georgia.

I totally spaced about orchards. I was thinking timber products.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ron Wenrich

Pecan is a timber type of tree.  Used in flooring, furniture, and paneling.  Also makes good fuel wood and smoking wood for meats.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

JakeCoetzee.12

Ron Wenrich;John MC; WHD; Ianab; Jeff; Beenthere:

Jeez guys! Thanks for the input! I like the idea of creating either a complete new species or even a hybrid.
I was thinking the same thing about using one species that they could be wiped out by a bug - that's actually part of the history of this farm, so now I at least know that's authentic!

I decided, since I'm not an expert, not even a novice, to this theme, I am at the mercy of the information I derived. As for you guys's help I think I'm on the path to writing this correctly. The information I've received so far, alone, I'm sure there's lots more out there, is more than enough to build this farm in my world and make it believable should a forester read my novel once published.

Again, I want to say thanks. I'll be keeping my eye on this post for more valuable information. It's good to know people are so willing to give information and help one out!

Jeff

Hopefully the Forestry Forum gets a credit when you publish ;)  :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

JakeCoetzee.12

Jeff:

If I don't do that when I get published then there's no hope in this world! I'll be sure to include a very biiig thank you to the forestryforum long before chapter 1! I'm not sure if you'd be interested but I could also maybe post a chapter or two for your review once I get down to the writing, and some editing, of course. Feedback from any and every reader is always helpful, because in the end the book must be read by the public and approved :)

beenthere

Do the reviews by private message, would be my suggestion.

I have a cousin who I learned was writing western short stories. I was impressed with his writing.
For one story that he sent to me to read, I posted it on the Forestry Forum some years back.

Come to find out, the publisher he approached for publishing his work found it also on the FF and refused to publish. That was, I learned, just one of many short stories he'd written, but felt bad that I nixed that one.

Don't know if this would have any effect on your chapters, or not.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JakeCoetzee.12

Beenthere:

Thanks for the warning! And sorry to hear about that. I'll do the reviews by private, it's better not to tempt fate! And again, I appreciate the help and advice, you have no idea how much it helps!

JakeCoetzee.12

Hi,

Hope you're all doing well.

I'd just like to know: For a Tree Farm, what types of buildings, such as warehouses and/or sawmills would be on such a farm? What do these buildings typically look like, if you have photos that'll be great, and what equipment is usually found in these warehouses/sawmills, not sure what they're referred to as? And how would the layout look? Is it specifically designed or doesn't it matter?

Also, what procedures are followed from felling a tree to turning it into usable form? Such as wood for housing, furniture, basically anything and everything?

I thank you in advance for your time!

beenthere

No set pattern that I can think of... just a tree farm may have no buildings at all.. but if it is an integrated operation from planting to growing to harvesting and then converting the harvest to wood products, then a lot of buildings, sheds, drying kilns, sawmill, equip maintenance, office, and maybe even a firetruck. ;)

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

Are you familiar with the American Tree Farm system? If you Google Tree Farming? and also use the Search "Tree Farming" here on the Forestry Forum, you will find a wealth of information that should be of help to you on tree farming.

As stated by Beenthere, a number of FF members have various degrees of Tree Farms with sawmills, etc. that could provide the skeletal basis and framework for your novel. Hopefully some of our Tree Farmers will respond and be of help to you.
~Ron

rockwall

I would recommend reading a great book by a logger. It would provide you with a lot of information about tree farming and I think you would have a ball reading it. It is called "Hard Chance- Tree farming in Troubled Times" by Peter Pfeiffer. You can get it at Amazon.

WDH

I am a Forester.  I have a Tree Farm.  I grow trees, harvest them, saw them, dry the lumber, plane the lumber, and sell it to customers.  All on a small scale.  I have sheds for sawing and air drying.  Under the sheds are my sawmill, an edger, and stacks of lumber air drying.  I have a kiln for doing the final drying.  The lumber is stored in an old building in racks.  I would not consider my set-up necessarily typical, especially on a more industrial scale.  But, it works.  Just on a very small scale.

My friend and fellow Forum member, Jake (Customsawyer) is also set up to saw and process lumber.  You are welcome to come to Georgia and look around. 

Go to your profile and add your location.  Your book may not be set in your location, but it helps to have that perspective in answering your questions.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

JakeCoetzee.12

WDH; Rockwall; Ron Scott; Beenthere:

Thanks for the replies!

Rockwall, I'll check out that book! Thanks for the reference.

WDH: Thanks for the info, it already helps a ton. I will keep your invitation in mind! As soon as I have a chance I'll let you know so we can arrange a meeting. Just a quick question: Would it make sense to take what you do, as you say, on "small scale" and just magnify it into a big-scale production? So larger buildings, more machines, etc?

For the novel I don't want to focus too much on any subject, but I do want enough information to be specific and accurate - so I have decided to take up many suggestions, especially the one of creating my own fictional tree species, since this town is completely fictional. So with regards to the sawmills and sheds etc. I really just want a basic idea, since I'm sure every layout is specific to its farm? Correct me if I'm wrong? --- I am still in the process of designing the farm, so once I know its layout completely I'll be able to fix inaccuracies such as 500 acres of unused land, etc. I also feel that once I understand the process better: such as sawing, air drying, etc I'll be able to set up a logical flow to things.

And, I also think I've developed an interest in forestry beyond my novel. It's become a fascinating topic to me, something I'd like to be involved in one day soon :).

As a last thought: I will do more research, as Ron Scott suggested, and hopefully visit some farms, as the suggestion from WDH. And once I have a better understanding myself, and have a rough layout of my farm and the process flow I will post that rough sketch just for the critical eyes of the professionals. I think this way we'll be able to proceed faster :)

Thanks again for all the help!

Cedarman

Just found this.  Interesting.  What about eastern red cedar plantation?  They grow well in about any soil.  They are drought resistant so would take less irrigation that other species. And they do well in dense monostands.  There are square miles of the stuff in TX, OK, KS, MO, TN, KY, so you could visit one and see first hand what it is like.  There are uses of the trees from 1" up to as big as they get. Small trees 4" can be used for fence posts and post furniture, bigger trees for lumber to make cedar chests, paneling, sawdust and shavings can be cooked to get the cedar oil, whole trees ground for mulch, the list is almost endless.  Also, I don't know of any pests that will decimate pure stands of cedar.
If you walk into a dense cedar thicket, you may only be able to see 20 to 30' in any direction, it can get spooky with rattlesnakes, bobcats, mountain lions etc.
We have a small commercial mill in Indiana that might be of interest.  We have 7 employees. We have several sawmills, edger, belts, resaw, grinding hog, planer, moulder, drying room etc. Also can show you a small scale logging job with shears, grapple and skidsteer forklift.
There is an Aromatic Cedar Association meeting this Saturday Oct 17th in Fairview Ok. where cedar harvesting and utilization will be presented.  Several "players" and several professor types will be there.  I'll be there.  Great place to meet people.
Just wondering why generators rather than solar for electricity.
Using wood waste to generator juice makes sense too.
As you are finding out, there is a heck of a lot of stuff for research on this forum.
Good luck with the book.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

JakeCoetzee.12

Cedarman:

Jeez! Thanks for the info! As I've been busy with research mostly and other small writing projects, I haven't set anything in stone for this novel, so this I will definitely add to the planning! I would've loved to be able to attend the meeting! Unfortunately right now I'm not able :(. Anyhow, thanks for the response. Will there perhaps be a video made of the meeting that I could purchase or download from somewhere? I'd really love to hear what they discuss!

Eastern Red Cedars - I'm going to give that a thorough check!

Thanks again!

Ljohnsaw

I just found this thread and find it fascinating as well.  I'd probably buy the novel since I'm "interested" in forestry as well (I have 10 acres that haven't been harvested in 50 years).  You can find more info on this site if you want a unique sort of power source for the farm/pumps.  A few here have done wood-gas projects to run tractors and generators.  There are many YouTube videos on it - even one place running a V-8 engine to run a big generator.

I'd have to agree, too, 500 acres of nothing (nearly a square mile) is a lot of open land that doesn't make business sense.  I would consider pasture land open but still being productive.

Out West here, orchards (Almonds, apples, stone fruits, etc) are irrigated, timber land, even plantations, are not.

Looking forward to a rough draft ;)
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Rocky_Ranger

Superstition Mountains in Arizona?  About the only thing that'd grow there (or anywhere within 100 miles of there) would be cactus and/or Juniper of some kind.  Look up the Tonto National Forest and look at their species in that part of the world/////
RETIRED!

JakeCoetzee.12

ljohnsaw; Rocky_Ranger:

ljohnshaw, what trees do you have planted on those 10 acres? Do you have any plans for them? And I'll be sure to give you a peek at the rough draft! Thanks for the information. I'll be sure to visit youtube in a moment and check out what I can find there!

Rocky-Ranger, yes, I know! That's why I wanted to establish the whole irrigation system -  to create a entirely new climate system within another one. Almost like Jurassic Park, or Michael Crichton, did with the Islands - they took one climate system and readjusted it artificially to match what they believed it to be like millions of years ago so the dinosaurs could survive there :). I'll check out the Tonto National Forest! Thanks for the tip!

brianJ

@JAke.     I gather you are looking for as much 'near ' realism as possible to make the fictional parts believable.  Are the waterfalls located near enoughwith enough height to gravity feed water to your plantation?    Saves a lot of expense and gravity is the most reliable power.   Maybe gravity just feeds into a lined resevoir centrally located in your plantation which is easier to pump from.     Also to know umping water all across the great Plains is done by direct diesel powered (a few natural gas) pumps.   No generator intermediary.   Its done that way for simplicity and durability.   Perhaps  the  most common engine is Deutz air cooled diesal precisely for one less thing to break.    Delivering water to the trees themselves has transitioned to drip irrigation rather than sprinklers.  Drip irrigation is just lastic tubing with pin prick holes in it that literally drip water out.   It is laid out on the ground or even buried so water soaksinto the root zone rather than evaporates.   


As for farmstead power?   Solar kilns and  solar hot water have decades of reliability and refinements engineered into them they are a no brainer in a sunny high elevation climate.   The operating costs are minimal too.

Many or some of the outbuildings depeding on winter tempatures could be nothing more than just enough posts to hold up a roof as a sunshade.

Contrary to nearly everyones "East Coast" opinion 500 acres is not a lot of idle land.   Scale is different out west.   But to be accurate those acres would mostly likely be part of the pasture rotation in some manner.    Maybe as a far off dry cow lot before calving season comes close.

Good Luck

Rocky_Ranger

There's more to adaptability of a species to site than water;  unequivocally, red maple won't grow there as a timber species no matter how much water you have.  Don't forget to find the water too, Arizona is appropriated.  Meaning, you have to acquire the water for use - it's all been spoken for and on the priority system (unlike the eastern half of the country on "riparian rights").
RETIRED!

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

CCC4

Quote from: Jeff on October 05, 2015, 02:32:59 PM
Yes, why not. Invent a new species perhaps hybridized from others with the traits you need for your new world

Jeff, I did a clearcut this past Spring for Corps of Engineers down in Greer's Ferry, Ar. Guess what they are replanting with...yes, a fictional hybrid tree...a White Oak Cypress!! They have some growing in 4 ft of water right now. My project manager said they were $100 an acre to plant. Who would have ever thought of making that cross...strangest tree I have ever heard of. Wonder what type of leaves they have? Wonder if they will produce acorns? Being a hybrid, I wonder if they are able to regenerate?

beenthere

Quoteyes, a fictional hybrid tree...a White Oak Cypress

If it is a real hybrid cross, then how can it be fictional?  ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CCC4

Quote from: beenthere on October 17, 2015, 11:29:28 AM
Quoteyes, a fictional hybrid tree...a White Oak Cypress

If it is a real hybrid cross, then how can it be fictional?  ??

Well, ever since I was told what they are planting, I have been looking for info on this cross and can't seem to find any. I have tried several wordings through Google and can't seem to get a hit on it. I was told it existed but can't find proof and I didn't see the test planting...so in my mind it's fictional until I can find further proof. LOL!

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ljohnsaw

Jake,

My property is fairly steep.  At the bottom flat area, there is the remnants of the old Emigrant Trail and the ground is somewhat damp in the summer.

 
There is an old stand of Quaking Aspen (18-24" DBH) that I plan to use for flooring in my cabin that I am building.  There were a number that had fallen years ago - they are no longer the tallest in this area and are probably past their prime.  Interspersed with those (and up the hill) is somewhat larger (DBH and height) Incense Cedar that I will use for wall boards - out competing the Aspen.

 

 

 

 

There are a few big cedars (60-80" DBH) that I will leave - magnificent trees - that are probably in the 100 year range, if not older.  Not a great picture but gives you an idea.  The top is full and lush.

 

There is a lot of either red or white pine along with Ponderosa Pine that will be used for frame timbers and joists.  The larger are 20-30" DBH.  There are a couple of large trees (60"+ DBH) that will be left standing.  My homemade mill can only handle 42" logs.  The woods are very thick and some of the red/white pine is in desperate need of thinning (dead tops, standing dead, etc).
  There is a bit of oak (not sure what type) that has been out competed for light that is dead or dying.  Nothing suitable for building - just firewood.  The oak out here is not straight by any means like east coast stuff.  Maybe I will use some crooks to make braces...
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Rocky_Ranger

I'd be suspicious of a white oak cypress; two different families don't do too good trying to cross.  Also from a Gymnosperm to an Angiosperm makes this fictitious all right....
RETIRED!

JakeCoetzee.12

BrianJ; Rocky_Ranger; Jeff; CCC4; ljohnsaw:

BrianJ: Thanks for the info! You're right about the diesel engines. Haha, I recently went to one of my friend's farms, normal corn, cow, wheat, sheep etc. They use the diesel engines to pump water into the dams from which the animals drink. Can't remember the engine model, will let you know as soon as I remember, but it makes more sense! And the solar power, wow, can't believe I didn't think of that! Thanks!

Rocky_Ranger: I think that's very interesting about the water "being spoken for" ... I'll look into that, just to have precision should that topic make itself known in the novel! I think I'm going to go with the eastern red cedar that was suggested. I've looked into them and they've got the look I pictured in my mind before even really knowing it. Thanks!

CCC4: That's very interesting. I'm sure you guys are fascinated with the hybrid, being knowledgable in these areas, but *DanG I'd love to see what that tree looks like! And smells like! I'll also do a search haha, maybe they'll put up something soon :).

ljohnsaw: First off, I kinda hate you ( :) ) because I'm extremely jealous that that's your property!!!!!!! It's freaking beautiful!!!!! And thanks for the pics, they're going to serve me well in getting the creative juices flowing when describing the actual farm, since the protagonist's gonna spend a lot of time in the forest.  I'd love to pay a visit some day, just to see it for myself :). Thanks again!

JUST A LAST THOUGHT: Can anyone tell me what eastern red cedar smells like? I'm trying to word it but I'm coming up empty. I'm planning to pay a visit to an eastern red cedar just to whiff it (yeah, we do that haha), but I'd also like to know how others perceive the smell! And the smell of a forest. I'm tired of always reading about how they smell the damp earth and fresh air - that's not really vivid anymore, it's a little cliched. I'm trying to come up with a different way of describing that's more vivid! Thanks!

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: JakeCoetzee.12 on October 20, 2015, 01:48:36 AM

JUST A LAST THOUGHT: Can anyone tell me what eastern red cedar smells like? I'm trying to word it but I'm coming up empty.

Not what you are asking for, but I did slice up some of my Incense Cedar:

 

I smelled like I fell in a pencil sharpener!  Brought me back to my grade school days  :D
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

John Mc

I'm not good at describing smells, but you do get some hint of the smell when you sharpen some types of pencils (some are made of cedar). However, comparing sharpening a pencil to what you get from fresh-cut red cedar is like comparing the taste of Bud Light to my favorite local micro-brewed IPA.

To me, it Red Cedar almost smells like it should be some sort of spice used in cooking... maybe something from India or the Far East?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

CCC4

I have been thinking all day about describing smells of forests and timber. I have spent years of my logging career involved with Eastern Red Cedar, from logging it to sawing it at a mill. Funny thing is I can't describe what it smells like. Best thing I can tell you there is go to a Home Depot or Lowes and find some closet lining and take a big deep breath. In the woods the smell is a little different, some times you can walk through a stand of Cedar and it smells like...cedar! Other times you can go through and it smells just like where a Bobcat just marked it's territory. Juniper Cedar smalls like pepper when you cut it, but the needles smell just like ERC.

Sassafras smells wonderful, like rootbeer and flowers. Depending on what kind of ground it is on it can be very pungent.

Sweet Gum smells like cinnamon and fresh water when you cut it

Tupelo or Black Gum smells like fresh water

Hickory smells like a bar b cue to me, especially if you dulled your saw and it got the chain a little hot

Red Oak and Water Oak smell like a mixture of cat pee, blue cheese, chicken house and stinky feet all wrapped up in one wonderful bouquet you get to wear the rest of the day if they pee on your leg while falling them.

A forest smells like what ever season you are in, honeysuckle in the Spring, leaves in the Fall, crisp fresh air in Winter.

A forest being logged smells like 2stroke gas, diesel, the breaking down of leaves from the tree have been cut


John Mc

Black Birch smells like some brand of gum I chewed as a kid (can't remember the brand - maybe Wriglee's?)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: John Mc on October 20, 2015, 09:36:36 PM
Black Birch smells like some brand of gum I chewed as a kid (can't remember the brand - maybe Wriglee's?)

Wriglee's SpearmintWintergreen!  I use to chew on twigs when walking in the forest as a kid in N.Y.  Cheaper than gum :D

edit: opps!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

clearcut

Black and yellow birch taste like wintergreen more than spearmint to me. Wrigley's Doublemint perhaps?
Carbon sequestered upon request.

tempforce

if your considering a arid-zona climate. in high altitude, pines grow very well. in the lower elevations. mesquite grows. not much else unless your watering...
if you have lots of water, a redwood would be a useful tree. especially if your in higher altitudes. as these trees gather moisture from the air when they get large. fog is the lifeblood of a redwood.
good luck with your novel...
cleaning up wildfire damage...
making lumber and siding out of wildfire damaged trees.

Cedarman

Smell a bottle of gin. Smells a little like cedar.  Made from grain alcohol and essence from the berries of juniper communis.  Can be found through out Canada. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

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