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Started by mhasel, October 30, 2003, 04:28:08 AM

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fencerowphil (Phil L.)

This thread has some great "venting" and observations.  Oldsaw's primary entry on the first page was great.

The points made by several about changing attitudes in our own USA, rang a bell.  Recent flap about removing the Ten Commandments may shed some light on the deeper causes of our short-term and shallow business "leadership":  

James Madison firmly believed  that only a society, which grasped a moral, Godly (gasp)  and self-governed code, could survive in a democratic system, long-term.  I think he was right.  Many of his colleagues held similar beliefs, noting that education and religious morality were the invaluable foundations for self rule.   In other words, to borrow from a song,  "Freedom's never Free".  Those who call themselves "free", must have self restraint and self discipline stemming from a belief system.

Our founding Fathers and Mothers seemed to think that such a belief system hinged not on a set, governmentally-enforced religion.  They feared such a thing.   Instead, they almost universally attributed the gift of self-rule to a creator - God .  Without Him and without this self reliance and this inward source of motivation, they had no confidence that such a government could survive.   Our enterprise was a unique gift - the first of its kind, depending upon these tenuous traits.

There is evidence afoot and about that they had a point!
Phil L.             Sermon over.   :-X
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

C_Miller

     All I'm sayin is NAFTA  and not the Niagara Frontier Transit Authority,  and WTO.

C >:(
CJM

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

And guess who benefits the most from NAFTA and the WTO?

Those very same shallow and short-term thinking business "leaders".
    Sample #1   "Move the work offshore.  Stock goes up.
                             Execise my options.   Bail out, using
                                Golden parachute.  Do it again at XYZ.
    Sample #2    "Who cares about local jobs.   We can
                             increase our business 1000fold with
                             this World Trade Agreement !"
Phil L.      ;)
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Bro. Noble

Phil L,

How long will it be till the 'ten commandments'  are relabeled the 'ten suggestions'  cause so many people don't pay much heed to them? :'(
milking and logging and sawing and milking

oldsaw

The founding fathers wouldn't be very happy today.  They laid the best foundation ever put down for governance.  Most of the changes added later have been mistakes, or unneeded (if you really think about it) clarifications/obfuscations of the original documents.

The Constitution isn't a "living, breathing document", but a guidebook/rulebook/owners guide for the country.  It was written by God-fearing men who were more concerned about the masses, and less about themselves.  They had a work ethic, and believed others did as well.  Liberals worry about keeping a separation of church and state (a concept never embraced by the founding fathers, theirs was rather not a government enforced religion), the founding fathers worried about a country and people not guided by a similar moral compass than their own, and that shared by the general populace of the day.  Today, we should be worrying about the separation of the population from said work ethic, ethics in general, and personal responsibility.

Phil, I really loved your post.  I also love my freedom to cut down a tree and make it into furniture.  It doesn't seem like much, but there are those who would want us to stop.

Long live the FF.

Mark
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Fla._Deadheader

If y'all REALLY wanna lose some sleep tonight, go to this website.    http://www.wildlands.org
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

I am a firm believer of the separation of Church and State. I do not, however, believe in the separation of God and State!  The "Church" is an organization born of men, and as such, has the capacity to commit all the sins of mankind. The Founding fathers were wise to exclude this as a part of their Democratic Republic. Faith in God, on the other hand, has always been a cornerstone of our Constitution. Without it, we would be just another "flash in the pan" empire. With it, we can lead the world to a new level of community, where nobody's children will starve, and everyone can live without the fear of attack. We can't lead this movement by mandate, so we must lead by example. The first example should be the refusal to be trodden upon in the market place. You do not gain respect by allowing yourself to be trampled. We should insist that imported goods meet our standards, and that the workers that produce them are treated fairly. We should also revise the tax codes for corporations, so that the "offshore" companies pay their fair share. Perhaps a tax on their sales, rather than their "profits" ::) would be more appropriate.

I have no problem with Canadian lumber if they can send me the kind of Southern Yellow Pine I'm used to. ;D

Furthermore, it is high time this thread got around to mentioning food! 8)  I went in a local meat market yesterday, and in the frozen meat case I found a rabbit. "Well, looky here", says I.  I bought the thing, and fried it up for supper tonight. Thing is, when I unwrapped it, there beneath the store label was another label reading, "Product of China". :o :-X  Now, can you imagine the thoughts that were going through my head as I gnawed those bones?  I was expecting the thing to go "meow" most any time. :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Percy

Good thread. No one is "flyin off the handle" and alot of good points being made.

I agree that the morality of big business, anywhere, not just in the U.S., has changed dramatically  in the last 20 years. They have gone to the GOLDEN RULE( the guy with the most gold makes the rules). To get an upperhand on the competition, they cut costs anyway they can, moral or otherwise, to get the consumer the lowest price/best value which should increase market share(profits). Who is to blame?? The consumer for demandind/buying at the lowest price/best value?? Some say yes but I disagree. If greed wasnt in the equasion, in my opinion, we'd all be moving along  at a slow but steady increase in income/lifestyle. One person can only spend so much money so why must some just hoard the heck out of it?? Beats me. If Im not mistaken, somewhere in the Bible it says its a hard thing for a rich man to get into heaven...hmmmmm
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

oldsaw

Hop on Dude!

That was a brilliant monologue.  I wish there were about 550 well placed people in government that thought that way too.

Food:  Had a "whack" o' meatloaf last night.  I really like meatloaf.  Yes, it certainly qualified as a whack.

Mark

I wonder what a rabbit meatloaf would taste like?  A Chinese rabbit meatloaf.  Did the rabbit come with any chopped vegetables?  Or Chinese seasonings?  "Time to Wok the rabbit?"
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Haytrader

I wouldn't want to eat a wabbit from China.
Wouldn't he be "tough" to chew after hoppin that far?

 :D  :D  :D
Haytrader

DanG

I think he musta swimmed over. He was still wet when I got him. :D  I felt a little better about it when I dropped him in the grease and he didn't land on his feet. :D :D

I'm thinking of calling the store to task for covering up the "Country of Origin" label. >:(
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

whitepe

One of the best and possibly oldest examples of
Made in America is the story of Ames shovels.
It seems that prior to 1776 it was illegal to make steel shovels in the colonies.   A colonist named John Ames
took to making shovels rather than importing them from
Great Britain.  It was legal to make wooden shovels however.
Of course, wooden shovels weren't real useful on rocky
New England.  Anyway the Ames True Temper company
survives to this do.  Now that I know this story, I will
always try to buy an Ames shovel.    8)
blue by day, orange by night and green in between

beenthere

Whitpe
Your mention of this raises my curiosity. I worked on a project in the late 70's with TrueTemper Corp (at least that is as I remember the name)on hickory handles for axes, down to hammers. The project came to a halt when TrueTemper was bought out by Wilkinson Sword, of England.

Now when I Yahoo! search on Ames True Temper, the mention of handles as their business comes up. Also, mention of a recall of wheelbarrow's comes up, with the following quote:

""The recalled wheelbarrow wheels were manufactured and sold by O. Ames Company, a predecessor company of Ames True Temper."" About the year 2002.  

Can you shed any light on the relationship of the O. Ames Company, and the Ames True Temper, and the TrueTemper Corp. ??  You seem to have some knowledge of its history.

Thanks.


south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mhasel

WOW, I had no idea this thread would generate so much interest.

There are so many good points that it s hard to say where to start. I can say that almost all of our heavy equipment is made in the USA, Massey Ferguson did have plants here and in Canada where they & their workers produced some of the best-built and best value equipment on the market. My greatest reason for still supporting them is the local dealer, where a handshake is better than a piece of paper and where one stands behind their work. Even though their entire equipment line may no longer be made here they still service their customers.

I still do my research before making a purchase, my latest being shoes, there are still a few manufactures who make a comfortable, quality product and I was sick of paying for a product that just didn't hold up. My last pair of Danner work shoes must be 7 years old and I hate to part with themL but hopefully my new pair will be just as serviceable.

I know that I will continue to support fellow workers here in the US & Canada whenever possible. It is almost impossible to find a product that doesn't contain some bit of foreign matter but I like to know that I am helping to support our national and local economies as much as possible.

Mike

DanG

Mike, the point of pointing out that M-F isn't an American company, wasn't to criticize them, but to point out that a lot of the companies that we think of as "good ol' American", are really based somewhere else.
Just as it is hard to find something that doesn't have any foreign components, it is equally difficult to find foreign products that don't have domestic materials in them. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

EZ

Every 6 months we have a company come in at the shop that call themself, Kaizonc. They tell us where to put machines, how to run them. They tell use where to put clocks at on the wall. They tell me how many pounds of metal I should pour in a day, how hot to pour it, what the micrones should be before pour and after pour. I even had one of them follow me in the bathroom, I thought maybe he was going to tell me how to pee. After 8 hrs of all these little Japanese guys following us around, they pack up and we dont see them for another 6 months.
O-ya, did I tell you guys that I pour metal for American made airplanes, I think I do, I guess I do, I thought I did. :-/
EZ

C_Miller

QuoteI wonder what a rabbit meatloaf would taste like?  A Chinese rabbit meatloaf.  Did the rabbit come with any chopped vegetables?  Or Chinese seasonings?  "Time to Wok the rabbit?"

I'll bet it's good, but you are hungry an hour later
C

CJM

mhasel

DanG I understand your point and didn't take it as negative, I was very disheartened when I found out MF had been purchased by AGCO but my loyalty is still with the local dealer. I believe someone else mentioned about the Toyota pickup being assembled KY, granted this isn't 100% the best situation but at least some Americans are benefiting from the sale and able to keep a portion of the profit in our economy.

It is amazing how companies will listen to consultants as in EZ's comments but won't listen to their own employees who probably suggested the same ideas but which fell on deaf ears????

I'm just glad to see some folks still care and given the nature of the members here I would not have expected anything else. I have been most impressed with the friendliness of everyone and their willingness to contribute their advice and experience.

Mike

EZ

Are contract is'nt up until July 1, 04. The company offer us a contract last week, this is some of the offers, $7.00 less per hr, if we are layed off for at least one week, when we get called back we start $2.00 less then what we had. :-/ $2000.00 deductable insurance. Everyone loose one week vacation, and the list goes on. The union offered $2.00 less an hour and every thing else stays the same, and they refused. The company is not broke or going broke, their last quarter they made $250,000,000 after taxes. They just bought 2 more companys for $240 billon. Don't really know what they want, my guess is they want it ALL.
Thanks for listening. :)
EZ

DanG

EZ, I'm in the same situation, and that's why I've decided to bail out. I can retire now, with a "chump-change" pension, or wait a while, and not even get the chump-change. :-/  I decided to go now, while I am still young ::) and healthy :D enough to get something going on my own. Some departments have already faced the scale back that you're talking about, and it ain't a pretty picture! >:(  The CEO and his henchmen are getting filthy rich, (they've been filthy for a long time) while the folks that butter their bread are suffering.
I have several jobs in mind for myself, just to keep things from getting stale. One of my jobs is going to involve suing folks. Guess who my first customer is gonna be? ;D

mhasel, I just wanted you to know I wasn't putting you down. :)  The manufacturer may be foreign, but the American distribution system is an American company, as far as I'm concerned. The M-F dealer here is a friend, neighbor, and customer of mine. Because of his honest and forthright dealings, there are probably two M-F tractors in this county to every one of all other brands put together.  When I buy something from him, I consider that I'm buying American. At least I know where part of the money is going. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I see the value of local-loyalty, also.  Twenty years ago, in a retail business at the time,  I would have loved to have seen more of it (and would have been the receiver of the benefits).

Recently, after waiting for three months to hear about ordered parts for a chainsaw,  I ended up back on the internet to buy the stuff I really preferred to get locally.   Well, ... at least I tried.  Never even got phone calls back from the local dealer.
Phil L.

Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

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