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Walnut Trees and Ground cover

Started by Canada, May 23, 2007, 09:06:41 PM

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Canada

Hello,

Can anyone tell me what type of ground cover would thrive in an extremely shaded area under several walnut trees?  If the walnut trees were not so valuable, I would cut them all down.  They certainly dominate the area that they grow in as well it is one heck of a mess in the fall. 

Any assistance or advice would be appreciated.

Thank you.


Furby

Why are they considered valuable?

Ianab

Not a lot...

Between the shade and the natural herbicide that walnut trees produce it's a tough job for anything to grow under them.

Cheers

Ian
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beenthere

Grass grows under black walnut trees just fine.  What kind of walnut are they?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Walnut trees secret a chemical called juglone to retard competition.  Not sure you will be too successful growing much stuff under the canopy ???.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Canada

Thanks everyone for your replies.  I thought the outcome would be grim.

One person asked "why are they considered valuable".  Currently walnut is $5.50 a board foot.  We have several walnut trees on our property, planted by the previous owners or forgetful squirrels however they are not planted in very good spots relative to the location of our home so unfortunately they will eventually have to come down.  For those who are cringing at the thought of taking trees down please note that I have planted to date an additional 35 trees on our property and will continue to add to this each year. 

Thanks again for your advice and replies. 

thecfarm

Welcome to the forum,Canada.Good luck with your timber frame building.Any plans for a sawmill?
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Dodgy Loner

Quote from: beenthere on May 23, 2007, 10:19:24 PM
Grass grows under black walnut trees just fine.  What kind of walnut are they?

Black walnut IS what kind of walnut they are, apparently.  Juglans nigra.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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Dan_Shade

I think black locust will grow with walnut
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Dodgy Loner

I'm not sure that black locust qualifies as a groudcover  :D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

Just know I need (hope) to get the grass mowed this weekend between my black walnut trees. I've about 700 on 10 x 10 spacing. For the first 10-15 years, I kept the ground turned over and free of any cover. For the last 15 years, I either use roundup or just mow the grass a couple times a year. Not many broad leaved plants will grow under them, but a few berry bushes and cedar seem to take hold. Grasses - no problem for them ta grow.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Canada,

Plant mo' trees 8).  Kinda like DanG's "eat mo' grits" ;D  If you plant mo' trees, we will get you some grits 8).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

Might even send you some Grits Trees.  ;D

Larry

Just a few observations from a uneducated would-like-to-be forester.  And I may be all wrong so don't be afraid to correct me.  The canopy of maturing walnuts is more of a detriment to ground cover than juglone.  And if I could talk to Mr Walnut tree I'm guessing they would prefer any legume ground cover...to fix nitrogen and more importantly to hold moisture.       

Dan...both black and honey locust fall in the legume category and I think Mr Walnut tree prefers either as a bed partner.  Maybe not as a ground cover though.

And that mess in the fall...I call that good eating...for me and the squirrels.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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Furby

I guess my whole point is, just because the lumber is fetching $$$ someplace, WHO says YOUR trees are of any value?
Take them down if you don't want them. :)
Don't hold onto them for the $$$ unless you are VERY sure they are worth the $$$ and know what you are looking for when you apraise them.
Not all trees are worth the $$$ or worth keeping.

Left Coast Chris

Not alot grow under my english walnuts either.  The shade is the biggest factor.  I have found that leaving the leaves creates a mulch that covers the ground.  You could add mulch, decorative bark etc. since they are so close to the house.  Another possibility is to get a creeping vine ground cover that will cover the ground beneath the trees but also grow on the fringe where it will get primiary light.  Another strategy is selectively prune the limbs to let some light in and you will get grass.  If the trees have a central leader the pruning would be difficult and they tend to fill back in with new growth so you would need to prune every two or three years.

Hope that helps  :) :)



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Canada

Thanks guys, some great feedback here.

Furby, I know what you are saying and you are right. I guess the trouble is not worth the $$$.

One other question surrounding my walnut trees - can anyone recommend a spray to take out the weeds and brush that are thriving under the walnut trees?  I like farmer77's idea about putting down a bed of mulch but first I need to clean it up. 


WDH

I would try Round-up at a 3% solution in water at first to see how effective it does the job.  Round-up is readily available and is not soil active.  Also not too expensive.  I used to do a lot of spraying under the hardwoods around my house.  I mixed Round-up at 3% solution in water and Garlon 4 at 3% solution in water in the same sprayer.  That controls practically everything, even green briar.  The Round-up is deadly on grass and the Garlon 4 is deadly on the toughest to kill broadleaf plants.  Just don't get any of the spray directly on the bark of the good trees.

There may be better chemicals on the market today, as my major spraying program was about 20 years ago.  Surely, the experts will speak up.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Phorester


Sounds like you've gone from wanting a ground cover to wanting mulch.   ;D Maybe you want both.  Mulch is better, but I can go with grass too. The problem with grass is that most people want to cut it, which means lawn mowers, which means soil compaction over the tree roots. If you were in my neck of the woods, I'd recommend red fescue if you want a grass cover.  Here it grows well under walnuts and in shade, and I'd suggest you investigate it for your neck of the woods.

Where you want mulch underneath trees (an excellent idea, by the way), I'd suggest first putting down a layer of landscape fabric.  This is especially made to restrict plant growth up through the fabric, but allows for water and oxygen percolation down through it.  Don't use just plain black plastic. Plastic will not allow the percolation of water or oxygen to the tree roots.  Plastic is like putting down asphalt, it will suffocate the roots.  Only use 2" - 4" of mulch. Any deeper will limit the amount of water getting down to the tree roots.  Don't pile it up against the trunk like a volcano.  I have no idea why that practice got started.  All it does is rot the bark on the tree trunk.  Remember, the idea is to mulch the tree roots, not the tree trunk.

RoundUp is a good all purpose herbicide where you don't want to affect plant roots.  It's only absorbed by foliage.

Don't worry about us cringing about cutting trees.  Most of us on this board realize that it's a necessity, and a lot of loggers and wood workers reside here.

Patty

Another thought to ground cover in shaded areas is to plant hostas. They will eventually take over and eliminate weeds and also eliminate the need to mow. I am not sure, however, if walnut trees will retard the growth of the hostas. Someone else will need to answer that one. I do know they grow well under pines or other very shaded areas.
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And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

Jeff

I gotta agree with Furby. Don't fall into that myth about retiring on your walnut trees. It would be like basing your retirement on the lotto ticket that aint been drawed yet.. Its the rare tree that has any higher value then any other marketable hardwood species of tree., If these trees are yard trees, odds are they are worth nothing to a buyer, only perhaps to you. Yard trees or open grown trees generally do not have the form to create what is valued in a high dollar walnut. Those big dollar trees are generally the slow growing, forest grown trees. Those trees that had to fight for sun and grew tall and straight and slow.
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SwampDonkey

Jeff ya might want to change your avatar signature or modify the avatar itself. The view I just got was a dead dog (actually a coyote for those that don't know) and that 'Where is my Ice' line.  ;)

Did the dog run off?
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Dodgy Loner

Jeff, are you suggesting there's something wrong with my "Pick 5" retirement plan?  >:( :D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

DL,

Hope is not a reliable process ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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