Future of Southern Yellow Pine?

GATreeGrower · December 07, 2012, 11:37:17 AM

Where do you see the market for yellow pine heading in the next 25 years? Is planted pine a good investment nowadays, with all the engineered and "green" wood being so popular? What species would you plant (south Georgia)?

sealark37 · December 07, 2012, 12:47:48 PM

I don't see how you and your heirs can go wrong planting SYP on your land in South Georgia. When all the smoke clears and it comes down to dollars and cents, your trees will retain your value on the stump. Any other species presents questions that will effect value to an unknown extent. A properly managed stand of SYP is, and will be, a good investment. Regards, Clark

DanG · December 07, 2012, 01:51:00 PM

I agree with Sealark. Trees are an historically sound investment, and SYP is king of the hill in S. Ga. Where in S. Ga. are you, anyway?

As far as markets out 25 years or more is concerned, everybody's opinion is speculation. Personally, I have a feeling we will be returning to more solid wood products in the future, and possibly back to more natural fiber containers such as grocery bags. Even if we stick with engineered products, much of that is made of wood anyway. Just an hour ago, a train came through my backyard with 5 carloads of OSB that all came from SYP. ;)

The variety you plant should depend on the site. Down here along the Ala/Ga/Fla border, it would be silly to plant anything other than Longleaf on most sites, but just a short distance to the north, Loblolly might be a better deal. Now for the really GOOD news, before this day is done, a real Forester or three will weigh in on this thread and give you the true scoop. ;D 8)

Ianab · December 07, 2012, 03:02:30 PM

There seems to be a lot of wisdom in planting whatever everyone else is planting. Reason is that when you come to harvest there will be the local markets to buy and process it.

As for future markets, it's pretty safe to assume that our kids will still want wood, paper, plywood etc and that interest in renewable resources is only going to increase.

Ian

drobertson · December 09, 2012, 10:09:25 AM

Gatreegrower, I applaude your desire to replant. It seems like so much timber land these days are going by the wayside. So many folks are into clearing and planting beef, which is not a bad idea, just saying we all need to do our part in reforestation. Good luck. Cant help on the types, but I guess the advice on long leaf is sound advice. david

Side loader · December 09, 2012, 09:34:59 PM

I have wondered this myself. No one on earth knows the future. However, I believe with all the wood products made from southern yellow pine (pulpwood, chip 'n saw, saw logs, light poles, wood pellets, ect. ) it should be a viable investment. Biofuel could be a big deal as well. Check your soil site index and let it help guide you. If you plant pine , I like the containerized seedlings, 2nd generation or better. A Registered Forester or your local county forestry office should be able to help with any site prep. I assume it's a large enough tract to attract buyers for a sale in the future. Hope it works out for you.

Wudman · December 09, 2012, 10:49:10 PM

The good thing about a tree farm is that it is growing regardless of the current market. In South GA, I would think that 10-12% (annual) biological growth should be reasonable. Maybe one of the more local foresters can chime in and tell me if I am in the ballpark. Add to that price and product appreciation and it is a strong (and fairly safe) investment. The world's population has doubled in my lifetime. Demand for forest products will continue. We are also seeing significant development in the biofuels industry as well as a developing export market for SYP. I don't think you can go wrong planting a tree. There are a lot of other benefits that one can garner other than cutting it as well.

Wudman

WDH · December 09, 2012, 11:48:37 PM

The biofuel thing is very real in GA. Especially wood pellets to fuel power plants. The world will need the fiber much more in 25 years than it does now, for sure.

Okrafarmer · December 10, 2012, 01:07:19 AM

If it were me, I would look into planting part of it in hardwoods. For some diversity, both ecologically, aesthetically, and financially. May take longer to be ready to harvest, but would be a thing of satisfaction to me.

WDH · December 10, 2012, 08:31:03 AM

The economics of pine are much better than hardwood in the South if you are looking at it from an investment standpoint.

Okrafarmer · December 10, 2012, 08:45:18 AM

Long-term, I'm sure you're right, WDH. Right now, oak sells for almost twice what the best pine sells for where I live. Poplar sells for 40% more than pine. If closely managed like the pine is, I would think poplar and water oak could grow almost as fast as the pine does. Even the pulp is worth significantly more than the pine is. The difference between $16 / ton and $21 / ton. Not to mention, it doesn't take as long to gather a ton of oak as it takes to gather a ton of pine. The water oak brings the same price at the mill we sell to as white oak or red oak-- $300 / k. Pallet logs are the same price we can sell premium pine for. $175/k. Water oak and poplar can each put on one inch per year if kept managed properly, with periodic thinning. In fact, under optimum conditions, they can do better than that. I have seen one-inch growth rings in both species.

SwampDonkey · December 10, 2012, 08:45:45 AM

Up here in the north it would be aspen and it doesn't need planting. A mature spruce or hardwood of any decent size is going to take a good 80-100 years to grow. So if that is the case, might as well manage for a good mix and not a monoculture. I may have plantations, but it's not monoculture. I have more natural wild stock growing in those plantations than hand planted trees when it's all averaged out. And as I said many times about hardwood up here. If it's a hardwood site and has been such for eons, you can plant all the dang spruce or pine you want and keep cutting back and spraying hardwood until dooms day and it will still grow right back to hardwood after you leave it alone. Seen all kinds of softwood plantations that failed to take and the hardwood grew right over them and killed out the softwoods or suppressed them so bad that they won't amount to beans. ;D

VT_Forestry · December 10, 2012, 08:56:16 AM

The running joke in the south is that if you want hardwood to grow, plant loblolly pine :D Regardless of what you plant, you can bet you'll have plenty of sweetgum!

Hardwood pulp isn't doing much right now, but as these pellet mills and biomass facilities come on line, I expect that to change. Pine pulpwood is doing very well (for the time being anyway), at least in my area. And that's about all I know about that 8)

Okrafarmer · December 10, 2012, 08:59:00 AM

Yes, SD, and soil-wise, there may be some sites down here that are distinctly better-suited to softwoods or hardwoods. But all else being equal, we have several hardwood species that grow quickly here. Now the question is, how long does it take to achieve the same amount of tonnage per acre as you would with pine. I don't know the answer to that, but as fast as the tulip poplars and water oaks grow around here, I wouldn't want to mess with pine. Other hardwood species are fairly slow growers. Now, for that matter, I would prefer to see a lot more selective cutting and multi-aged stands around here, but it isn't very popular around here.

As for that, my area has very poor utilization of the approximately 90-100 species that are not pines, oaks, or tulip poplar.

Okrafarmer · December 10, 2012, 09:01:48 AM

Quote from: VT_Forestry on December 10, 2012, 08:56:16 AM
The running joke in the south is that if you want hardwood to grow, plant loblolly pine :D Regardless of what you plant, you can bet you'll have plenty of sweetgum!

Hardwood pulp isn't doing much right now, but as these pellet mills and biomass facilities come on line, I expect that to change. Pine pulpwood is doing very well (for the time being anyway), at least in my area. And that's about all I know about that 8)

SG will grow no matter what you do, and it is great for pulpwood. Good heavy hardwood, brings a lot of weight to the paper mill. Here we get $21 / ton for hardwood and $16 for pine. We like oak and hickory pulp, since it's good and heavy and it doesn't take as long to round up a ton.

Claybraker · December 10, 2012, 06:47:51 PM

Just thought I'd toss this out there, since we're discussing the Georgia market. I've heard of some pretty good returns on plantation pine, especially longleaf, and harvesting pine straw.

Ain't no secret that Metro Atlanta is out of water, I'm guessing a lot of those fancy lawns are going to need to adopt a more xeriscape approach. Any thoughts?

WDH · December 10, 2012, 08:44:56 PM

Okra, the problem is site. Those growth rates that you talk about are on the good bottomland and alluvial sites that do not lend themselves to plantation management. It is not very practical, and the sites in South Georgia are not alluvial bottomlands.

Claybraker,

The water situation in Atlanta will be interesting to watch.

SwampDonkey · December 10, 2012, 09:25:33 PM

You don't know how much you will miss it until it's gone. It's mighty inconvenient to be without water.

Claybraker · December 10, 2012, 10:16:08 PM

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 10, 2012, 09:25:33 PM
You don't know how much you will miss it until it's gone. It's mighty inconvenient to be without water.

I remember that from my days in the army, and what a joy it was to take a shower after a few weeks without one. Truth be told, I remember how much I appreciated my team members showering after a few weeks without one also.

A little background for the forum. Metro Atlanta has been sorta kinda the economic engine of Georgia, but roughly half the state's population is in the Metro area, and it depends on a watershed (Chattahoochee River) that only drains 5% of the state's area. Atlanta was established as a railroad town at the bottom of the Appalachian Mountains, unfortunately that mean it was also located on the Continental Divide. Water wars have been big out west for centuries, but it's something new in this area, and a lot of folks (mostly politicians) are in serious denial.

GATreeGrower · December 11, 2012, 02:10:58 PM

Drobertson, I appreciate that. I am a sixth generation tree farmer...my grandfather has always said for every tree you cut, plant two in its place.

GATreeGrower · December 11, 2012, 02:23:40 PM

Side loader, I agree with you on the container and advanced generation seedlings. Better survival rates and wood, and less disease. And thank you everybody for your replies...hoping to plant 50 acres soon that was clear cut, piled and burned this summer....we don't waste no time putting them back

PC-Urban-Sawyer · December 12, 2012, 10:54:37 AM

Quote from: Claybraker on December 10, 2012, 10:16:08 PM
... Atlanta was established as a railroad town at the bottom of the Appalachian Mountains, unfortunately that mean it was also located on the Continental Divide. ...

As I was taught geography in the early 1960's, things may have changed a bit since then, but I thought THE Continental Divide in North America was the one running roughly North and South along the Rocky Mountains. I've never heard of the term being applied to the Smokey Mountains chain, although I suppose it does divide that section of the continent into northern and southern watersheds...

Just struck me funny, using that terminology in this case.

Herb

Claybraker · December 12, 2012, 01:06:45 PM

The one out west has a better PR firm.

East of Atlanta, water flows into the Atlantic. West, it flows into the GOM. I think it's a helpful concept when discussing the tri-state water war between Georgia, Florida, and Alabama. Atlanta doesn't have any natural boundaries to restrict it's growth, but it does have a limit on water resources available. And folks downstream have a claim to those resources also. It won't be an easy problem to solve, which is why it's been tied up in court for the last two decades or so.

My gut feeling is conservation is going to play a big part in the solution, meaning less use of water for lawns and more mulch type landscaping, but so far I've been wrong.

sealark37 · December 12, 2012, 03:23:42 PM

Since WWII, only one military base in the U.S. made money. That was Fort Stewart, Georgia. The pine timber that was sold off of the base provided enough income to make the activities on the base profitable. Regards, Clark

GATreeGrower · December 12, 2012, 07:48:27 PM

Quote from: sealark37 on December 12, 2012, 03:23:42 PM
Since WWII, only one military base in the U.S. made money. That was Fort Stewart, Georgia. The pine timber that was sold off of the base provided enough income to make the activities on the base profitable. Regards, Clark

They still manage those woods, too. When I graduated college they were hiring Forestry Techs