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Sharpening Advice

Started by Simon3380, April 11, 2018, 12:20:09 AM

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Simon3380

So last fall I purchased a WM BMS 250 and Cooks dual tooth setter. I'm think I'm pretty comfortable with the sharpening part but I just flat out struggle with the setting. It seems like half the time the blades end up cutting a little bit rough like a tooth or two has too much set. I try to straighten them when I see them but it just seems to take forever to get the set just right. I think some of my problem might be trying to revive bands that have hit nails but not sure. It's on my self improvement list to keep track of those blades better. The first question I have is what range do you guys consider acceptable to get a smooth cut, like +/- .001"?

I've read about people and even woodmizer using rollers to flatten the blade/set before reshaping, but I don't see any thing that can be purchased. Seems like Cooks offered something a few years back but don't offer it anymore. Do most people that sharpen their own blades not have issues with setting or do they just make their own rollers?

Sure would be nice to get to the bottom of this. I know now why so many just send there blades out but I'm just the type of person that can't bring myself to paying someone else to do what I can do (even if sometimes it cost me a bunch more at least in the short term. I guess that's why I ended up with a sawmill, and a backhoe, and a skidsteer,  and a ... 😁).
Garbage in, garbage out

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Simon3380 on April 11, 2018, 12:20:09 AMDo most people that sharpen their own blades not have issues with setting or do they just make their own rollers?

I think I saw a few years back that someone made a roller to take most of the set out with a few ball/roller bearings - a pretty simple set up.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Skipper11A

I resharpen my own blades but I don't worry about the set unless I can see one tooth is way out of alignment.  I correct these with a handheld saw kerf bender tool ( not sure of the name).  I wonder if you're not overthinking this thing.  I cut beautiful wood and actually have people comment on how smooth the cut is, but it's not perfect. 

Chuck White

I made this "unsetter" or set remover a couple of years ago!  I made it to run my blades through to even the set up before setting them!





I just slide the blade down in between the two rollers and pull it through backwards to eliminate damaging the points!

Doing so really speeds up the setting process!  Now setting "both sides" usually takes less than 10 minutes!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Crusarius

Chuck, you ever notice less tooth life out of your blades? Like teeth breaking off from unsetting and setting?

I am guessing the blades wear out before teeth begin to fail?

slider

Simon i down set with my cooks setter. Just do one side at a time and by backing the other anvil out. It  takes a minute but it works.
al glenn

YellowHammer

I have the same combination, BMS 250 and Cooks dual tooth. Unlike many, I sharpen then set because I like to set and measure off fully profiled edges not the rounded edges on a dull band.  

I also do not like the anvil strategy of the Cooks setter so I reground the anvils to a full bevel and now push and set off the top of the tooth which is where I'm measuring with the dial indicators and is the part of the tooth that leaves the scratches on the board.

Also, I've adjusted the anvils so that I get 25 thou set when the gullet of the band is exactly flush with the top of the setter clamps. So my procedure for loading a new band is lay it in the setter, spin the burr off on the inside of the band, put the band in the setter clamps and adjust the gullet to be flush. Then maybe a quarter turn raise or lower to tweak and get to my set value, then start cranking. I don't adjust the tooth set by moving or individually playing with the anvils because if the BMS did it's job all the profiles are very accurate from tooth to tooth and band to band. Once I get the anvils "balanced" and set correctly, I lock them down with a wrench and move them once in a blue moon, or less.  If the left and right values don't match very closely it means there is probably something wrong with the tooth tip, it got knicked or not fully profiled for some reason.

All three of these steps in combination result is a very quick setting cycle, about 2.5 minutes, and very smooth cut, better than a new band and Resharp.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

DDW_OR

mine is the Timbering sharpener, drag type
 
"let the machines do the work"

Chuck White

Quote from: Crusarius on April 11, 2018, 07:38:34 AM
Chuck, you ever notice less tooth life out of your blades? Like teeth breaking off from unsetting and setting?

I am guessing the blades wear out before teeth begin to fail?
No, I haven't, and I think this is my 3rd year using this unsetter!
I don't sharpen "heavy", just so long as the point is there, is all I really care about!
I do get down into the gullet when I can, sometimes that might take the second or third sharpening, and sometimes the profile just doesn't go my way! 
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

JB Griffin

To the op, we have one of those dual tooth smashers at work and I loathe that thing. .006" consistency is as good as it gets with that thing. I personally have seen it "set" blades to the tune of .010" variance on the same side. And that my friend is why I bought a Suffolk.

P.S. 4x4american posted a video showing why they can't be accurate. 
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota with 6gpm hyd unit, 150 Prentice, WM bms250, Suffolk dual tooth setter

Over 3.5million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator.

Simon3380

Quote from: Chuck White on April 11, 2018, 06:43:12 AM
I made this "unsetter" or set remover a couple of years ago!  I made it to run my blades through to even the set up before setting them!

Is the gap adjustable? Or do you always have say .045 blades so it doesn't have to be?
Garbage in, garbage out

tawilson

Yellowhammer, how do you spin the burr off? My Woodmizer manual says to rub a piece of hardwood around the inside of the blade, but always looking for better ways.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

gmmills

Simon3380, You will never be able to hold tight set tolerances with a Cook's dual tooth setter. Just check out 4x4's video. If you want to hold tighter set tolerances and still have the speed of a dual tooth setter you need to look at buying a WM BMT 250 or a Suffolk. Accuracy is fully dependent clamping the deflection out of the blade body prior to bending the teeth. Holding set tolerances of +/ - .001 is what you are after, then a single tooth setter is the only true way to do so.
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

YellowHammer

I have a small rectangular piece of carbide stock, about 3/8" x 3/8" x 2 inch long and lightly hold the sharp edge against the inside of the band and hold it stationary while spinning the band in the setter.  The band isn't in the clamps, but being held in the bearings in the arms.  You can feel the burr being shaved off, and only go around once.  There no need to do more because when you get to point you started you can feel the drag lessen significantly which means the burr is shaved off.
A piece of hardened tool steel will also work fine, or anything rectangular with a sharp edge corner that will shave the burr.  I've tried the wooden stick, didn't like it, if anything, it tends to push the burr down, not shave it off.  The setter needs a clean tooth tip to set and measure from.

When I say spin, I mean you can spin the band fast, three of four grab and pulls and it's done. You can also hear the sound change when you come all the way around. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Chuck White

Quote from: Simon3380 on April 11, 2018, 09:36:16 PM
Quote from: Chuck White on April 11, 2018, 06:43:12 AM
I made this "unsetter" or set remover a couple of years ago!  I made it to run my blades through to even the set up before setting them!

Is the gap adjustable? Or do you always have say .045 blades so it doesn't have to be?
The gap is adjustable, but not very much, it is set where it was when it was made!
I've set .042 and .045 blade with it regularly!  One time I had a guy bring in a couple of .035 blades and it still worked ok!  If I had to do a .055 blade, it would probably need to be opened up by undoing the bolts and retightening (the bolt holes are ever so slightly oversize).
I mostly do .045 blades, and when the blades are run through the unsetter, they will be between .018 & .020" set!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

petefrom bearswamp

My neighbor Tim and i pass the WM "unsetter" back and forth as needed.
YH I dont like the wood method either, so have gone to setting before sharpening.
I dont have the proper cam for the 7 turbos which I an changing over to so use resharp for these.
I am not smart enough to re profile a cam for the 7 turbos.
My sharpener is a 95 drag model.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Chuck White

I set, then sharpen, and I don't worry about the burr, just pretend that it's not there! 

I've never had an issue with it since I started setting first, then sharpening!

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Kbeitz

The log will take care of the burr...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

highleadtimber16

The guy who used to sharpen my blades, would leave a heavy burr on them. It caused a big rust issue on my Red Cedar boards. I sharpen my own blades now, and make sure the burr and any metal residue is cleaned off. 
2011 Wood-Mizer LT 40 hyd w/ 12' Extension,
EG 200 Wood-Mizer
Cutting Old Growth Cedar from Queen Charlotte Islands.

4x4American

I hate setting..if you get the set within .003" you'll make some nice lumber.  I have the cooks dual and single tooth setters.  The single tooth setter is actually quicker if you're trying to be real accurate because it's easier to tweak the blade.  I pretty much only use the dual tooth to downset teeth because its pretty good at that.
Boy, back in my day..

Darrel

I have come to the conclusion that I need to make a set of rollers to remove set. For a setter, I use my Pineywoods inspired shop built setter Link and most of the time, I have no problem unless I hit iron or in some other way damage the band. It is for these damaged bands that I need the rollers. 
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Bandmill Bandit

I need some instruction for the sharpening of the carbide bands. I have 6 to sharpen and recieved my CBN wheel to do the job today. Having never sharpened these blades before I would really appreciate any tips and advice there is available to make sure I have a reasonable chance at getting it right on the first shot.

Any one with experience on these blades please post your tips and instruction for me please. Thankyou    
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Ljohnsaw

Been a while since this has been up.  I made an Un-Setter from timing belt rollers/tensioners.  I happen to have this 1/2" plate with holes pre-drilled and removable pegs.  The pegs were perfect for the bearing center hole.  Just had to add some washers to lift it off the plate.



 

 
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Percy

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on September 13, 2018, 08:29:26 PM
I need some instruction for the sharpening of the carbide bands. I have 6 to sharpen and recieved my CBN wheel to do the job today. Having never sharpened these blades before I would really appreciate any tips and advice there is available to make sure I have a reasonable chance at getting it right on the first shot.

Any one with experience on these blades please post your tips and instruction for me please. Thankyou    
I could be mistaken on this so take it for what its worth...heh... I believe the cbn wheels will do stellite tooth blades as I have done so with great results. The carbide toothed blades that WM sells needs a "special diamond wheel". I have a few carbide ones that Im scared to put on my cbn equipped sharpener as Im scared it will wreck the wheel....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: Percy on September 14, 2018, 12:32:34 AM
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on September 13, 2018, 08:29:26 PM
I need some instruction for the sharpening of the carbide bands. I have 6 to sharpen and recieved my CBN wheel to do the job today. Having never sharpened these blades before I would really appreciate any tips and advice there is available to make sure I have a reasonable chance at getting it right on the first shot.

Any one with experience on these blades please post your tips and instruction for me please. Thankyou    
I could be mistaken on this so take it for what its worth...heh... I believe the cbn wheels will do stellite tooth blades as I have done so with great results. The carbide toothed blades that WM sells needs a "special diamond wheel". I have a few carbide ones that Im scared to put on my cbn equipped sharpener as Im scared it will wreck the wheel....
Yes Percy you are correct on the requirement of a diamond wheel. 
Shawn had sent me the CBN wheel for doing the for the regular 7*/39* turbo blades and then sent me an email to let me know NOT to use it and that he would ship me a the correct wheel as soon as he had one in. I got the right one yesterday and the other one goes back today. Now I just need the instructions on how to use correctly.
I was kinda hoping maybe marty would weigh in on the advice part.
How is life up in the beautiful northern interior? I kinda think I may have stopped at your place when I was up that way a couple of years ago but not sure.  
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

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