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If you're thinking of a manual mill...

Started by Brad_bb, March 27, 2015, 12:13:29 AM

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Brad_bb

If you're going to do a good amount of sawing, think twice about a manual feed mill...  I have an LT15GO and an MP100 beam planer which rides on the same track.  I've been milling for 6 weeks now on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  My off bearer and helper is 63 and he needs a rest day between.  In all honesty, so do I even at 43.  On those days, he is here from 9am to 3pm.  I usually start either an hour before him, or continue and hour or two after he leaves.  So I'm doing between 7 and 8 hours.  We saw each side of the beam and follow it with the beam planer.  Both are manual crank.  4 sides per beam and we are constantly checking to make sure the already sawn side of the beam is square to the bed and are constantly making clamp/wedge adjustments.  Sawing, especially if the blade is getting dull, can move the can't around and knock it slightly out of square.  I blade that's getting dull also requires more effort with your forearms.

This week we decided to try to do four days -Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, Friday.  On Tuesday night, I was really feeling it.  I was fried.  Today I think I felt worse than Tuesday.  When I finally stopped at 5pm, I had to sit in a chair and rest for awhile, slow down my heart, and catch my breath(no I don't have a heart problem).   My index finger was twitching tonight involuntarily.  I really felt it in my back by the end of the day.  I can feel it in my fingers and forearms.  I think if I were repetitively sawing boards, I'd be fried just as bad or worse. 

The point is, if you're going to be doing a bunch of sawing like I've been with this job, the power feed option would be a good thing.  Don't think you're going to do a lot of sawing with a manual mill without wear and tear on your body.  Just my opinion after doing it awhile.  These timbers are going to be for my timberframe house, so I'm more willing to endure.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

justallan1

@Brad_S. I'd agree with you some on that, but I feel all the work is loading, flipping and off bearing. For me the sawing is the break I get. :D

Cypress Man

I definitely agree with you but I don't think the power feed option is the answer.  I saw full time Monday through Friday from 7 am to 4pm. The only improvement I've seen even after running a LT40 super is the addition of a log deck, power conveyor, transfer table and edger.life is much easier with that equipment, but then again I have a lot of lumber to stack.
LT70 wide head electric, IC5 Power conveyor, transfer table, Stop and Load Log Deck, Catapiller 360B Telehandler, Cat tl642c Teleloader, Cat TH514 Telehandler, Woodmizer EG400 edger, Logosol PH360 moulder, Extrema 26" Planner, Grizzly 16" dual conveyor resaw, Prentice 285 log loader

shortlogger

I screwed my back up two years ago trying to position a larger log on my manual mill now I constantly struggle to do any kind of lifting or sawing without getting down agin . If your gonna use a manual mill get some little upgrades that will help turn the bigger logs and some toe board/roller jacks to position it where you need it on the bunks . If I had done that from the beginning I would had avoided a buldged disk and lots of pain . 
In other words work smarter not harder
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

johnnyllama

I've got a manual mill myself but for me it's the off bearing and stacking that's the workout. I don't have a crank type feed, just a manual push but as long as I have a sharp blade, I can walk through a 20" cut with just a slight push with one hand. Anything you have to crank is a killer on the body though. I replaced my manual crank height with an electric winch with pulleys and now it's just a touch of button up and down. I've put in some long days cutting but the handling from the saw to the nicely stickered stack is the real work for me, especially my lower back, after a spinal fusion a few years ago. Moving logs I'm on the tractor, moving big cants or logs on the deck I try and use pry bars, levers, and cant hooks and take my time. Now that planer does sound like you've got your work cut out for you!
Turner Bandmill, NH35 tractor, Stihl & Husky misc. saws, Mini-excavator, 24" planer, 8" jointer, tilting shaper, lathe, sliding table saw, widebelt sander, Beautiful hardworking wife, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 23 llamas in training to pull logs!!!

Verticaltrx

I think a lot of it has to do with the type and size of lumber you are sawing. Handling those big beams is a lot of work, just getting them off and stacking them is work on almost any mill if you don't have extra equipment. I also don't have any experience with a crank-feed mill, but that does look very tiring. Every push type manual mill I've used the actual pushing/feeding was one of the easiest parts of milling (assuming you have a sharp blade.)  If I had a manual Woodmizer the first thing I'd do is disconnect the rope and just push the mill head. I've noticed in some of the sawmill shootout videos of Woodmizer LT15s they've disconnected the rope and are pushing the mill head.

I have a manual mill and often saw 8hrs a day, and feel no worse than after any other day of work on the farm or the jobsite. That said, I've done a lot to make it easy and efficient, have equipment to load logs (and turn big ones) and with the dimensional lumber I'm sawing I really never lift anything over about 80lbs. 

There is a lot you can do to make milling quicker and easier and I have learned a lot on here. I increased my production from 80bf/hr to 130bf/hr just by making some changes in the way I did things and by making the mill easier to operate. Lots of good reading on the subject.
Wood-Mizer LT15G19

kelLOGg

I "brag" that I can saw just about as fast as hydraulic mills of equivalent HP. That's sawing, not loading, turning and off-bearing and stacking. I spend an enormous amount of time walking around the mill to wrap a cable around the log and reel it in or turn it. It is highly effective and saves effort and is SLOW. I also "brag" that I can do everything hydraulic mills can AND 10% as fast. ;D Like juatallen, the sawing part is when I rest; off-bearing is the bear. My head advance allow me to push big boards onto my trailer but, guess what, that's slow, too.
My manual mill suits me because I don't have to make a living with it, it has allowed me to be creative in modifying it, I've met lots of neat people sawing for them, I've saved many logs from the dump and I just enjoy sawing at my pace.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Magicman

What are you young guys doing, trying to make us old guys feel old.   :)

Really, a work day is a work day.  Yield will be greater with higher production sawmills with hydraulics, etc. but never think that log rolling and adjustments, slab and lumber handling, plus flitch edging and stickers does not require manual labor.


Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

fishfighter

Quote from: Cypress Man on March 27, 2015, 06:35:26 AM
I definitely agree with you but I don't think the power feed option is the answer.  I saw full time Monday through Friday from 7 am to 4pm. The only improvement I've seen even after running a LT40 super is the addition of a log deck, power conveyor, transfer table and edger.life is much easier with that equipment, but then again I have a lot of lumber to stack.

I would like to come by and check your operation out one day. I pass your place all the time.

Yes, a manual mill will work you. More so when you are doing everything by yourself. ;D

bandmiller2

If your over 50 and thinking about a manual mill, don't. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

thecfarm

I would think that beams would be hard to saw AND to plane much more than boards would be. BUT what do I know,I've never planed beams. And I don't cut beams all day long either.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

fishfighter

I'm doing beams and boards and yes, I'm over 50. ;D With a backhoe and tractor, I wouldn't even dream of doing what I am doing without them.

red

I would not run a marathon without proper training. I would not run Any sawmill 8 hours without being in shape.
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

kelLOGg

Quote from: Magicman on March 27, 2015, 07:17:58 AM
What are you young guys doing, trying to make us old guys feel old.   :)

Wow!, MM, thanks for the flattery. :D
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

fishfighter

I have ran mine for up to 10 hours in a day. But, my production rate is very low. I have to pace myself with many sit down breaks due to not catching my breath. Bad ticker will do that to you. The wife fusses me all the time. ;D But one thing is for sure is that I will not go down without a fight. 8)

YellowHammer

If you do the math, it's amazing the tonnage moved during the process of sawing.  Generally, mixed hardwood logs fall between 6 and 8 ton per thousand board feet.  So if someone is sawing that much a day, (easy for some, difficult for others) and everything  that comes off the log is handled manually, such as slabs, flitches, boards, even shoveling sawdust, then the sawyer, or offbearer is still handling 16,000 pounds of log material a day, if only in 10 or 20 pound hunks of wood.  If you were to go to a weightlifting gym and tell the folks there to do 16,000 pounds of 20 lb reps a a day, they would probably have second thoughts. 
So this is how much weight is being handled, whether the mill is manual or automatic, if no offbearing or auxillary equipment is used.  That's why is so important to have things like roller tables, pallets, skids, I.e. "Stuff" to help handle this. 
When using a manual mill (I used to have one) or any configuration where the log or log material must be handled repetitively, then the weight number is increased.  Turning logs, flipping cants, etc or other things really add up.  For example, (doesn't matter if manual or not) if someone saws 3,000 pounds of lumber, but doesn't sticker it right off the mill, then it will have to be rehandled, and the Sawyer or offbearers will be lifting the 3,000 lbs again, one board at a time...
On the other hand, if 2,000 lbs of slabs are coming off the mill per day and instead of manually lifting them and carrying them to the slab pile, a simple roller table is used, then that is one less ton of weight that needs to be lifted per day.  Multiply that by sawing day after day after day, then the numbers really add up.

So everytime I saw, I am always looking for ways to reduce the tonnage I am having to handle, and look for ways for equipment to do it.  It's not being lazy, it's trying to last through the long haul.
YH


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

fishfighter

I used to work out all the time, 12 and 16 oz Bud lites. My body for my age is in very good shape. Still, handling wet red oak fresh fell, milling and off loading does take a toll. Just wish a few of those guys that work out would come by for a real work out. ;D

WV Sawmiller

I am thankful every day my wife and friends talked me into buying the hydraulic mill instead of the manual ones I was originally looking at.

I suspect the ease of log/cant handling with the hydraulics make it much more likely I will turn the log/cant when needed more readily than with a manual operation. I'd be much more likely to just cut the log/cant where it lay then spend more time trimming flitches than with my hydraulic options.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DMcCoy

I plan to power feed my mill but I understand that still leaves a lot of physical work. 
Off bearing - "the green chain" was the biggest source of back and wrist injuries in a smaller local mill before they automated that.  They cut 150,000 ft a day so they were really wearing 20's something guys out.

One thing I do that helps immensely in handling logs and lumber.  Find the pivot point, like a teeter-totter.
I roll logs onto a well placed 4x4 and you can pivot logs with one hand.  Find the pivot point with beams and lumber, place 2 pivots near the center.  You can then walk your lumber sideways from 1 end with a fraction of the physical abuse of your body.  Might be a little slower but if your choices are fast until you get hurt or slower, slower means you are still working and enjoying something else after work beside pain medication.

Magicman

Try to never pick up both ends of a board or slab at the same time.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Bruno of NH

It's the material handling that gets me . Finding ways to be more productive with less handling of slabs and finished lumber. It's some thing I need to work on .
Jim/Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

fishfighter

My problem is staging lumber. Were my mill is to were I'm staging finish lumber is about 200'. I need to stack and sticker them before I move them, but I haven't been doing that due to mud and water all around my mill area. This summer, I will fix things once it dries out.

Besides that, I been cutting different sized finished lumber all together from each log. I don't have a close area to were I can separate most of it as I mill right now.

taylorsmissbeehaven

I have to agree, sawmilling is a labor of love! I am fortunate enough to have a small tractor with FEL. I roll the logs onto a makeshift deck and then pivot materials back onto forks to be put into place. A manual mill is not for the man looking to compete with the box stores selling 2x4s. I pick and choose how and when I saw and keep it realistic. I also sleep well after a good day at the mill! All in all I love making sawdust, Brian
Opportunity is missed by most because it shows up wearing bib overalls and looks like work.

logboy

I think some are more in love with the idea of sawing than the actual doing.  People need to be realistic and honest with themselves when it comes to running a sawmill. I fully expect to be dirty, sweaty, and have a sore back at the end of a full day. Ive had people tell me they "don't have time" to run a Lucas Mill. After talking to them for a bit I learned its not that they dont have time, its that their idea of running a sawmill is chain smoking Marlboros and pulling hydraulic levers while their offbearer does all the heavy lifting.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

landscraper

The human body has to be conditioned to extended exertion.  You have to work your way up to hard work, and get used to it, and it takes a while.  Either that or get efficient, use mechanical aids, spend money to reduce labor. 

"Worked himself to death" was a cause of death in the old days.

I know I'm not quoting this exactly right, but I used to work with a guy who had this saying about how it was faster in the long run to work slow but steady.  It went something like this.

Slow is smooth.  Smooth is easy.  Easy is fast.  Slow is fast.
Fast is rough.  Rough is hard.  Hard is slow.  Fast is slow.
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

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