Dealing with employees who quit

[Ken]

Last Thursday while away on an unsuccessful moose hunting trip I had a text message from my harvester operator of nearly 1 1/2 years indicating that he was giving his 2 weeks notice.  Over the last several months his work ethic has been less than stellar. He openly admitted to me that he was not feeling very motivated lately.  I felt it was pretty hard for me to bait him with more money or benefits without him showing an improvement first.

I expected him to show up Monday and my plans were to pay him for the 2 weeks and send him on his way.  Fortunately for my bank account he did not show. 

That being said what would be the best way to handle a situation like this?  I have been very fortunate that the vast majority of my employees have been with me for many years.   As many of my jobs require seasonal workers it is quite easy to not invite someone back for the next year if they are more effort than they are worth.

Cheers
Ken

[just_sawing]

When he comes back broke he starts at the bottom and works back up.
Any Lip to me of disgruntle he is fired on the spot in fromt of everybody, You will be amazed on how many other problems go away.

[Dan_Shade]

is not having him now costing you money?

the first half of your post leads me to believe that you won't be missing him. 

[Mooseherder]

Was his job performance ever addressed over this time?
Periodic written Performance reviews have their benefit and let's both parties air out and discuss what they need out of the work relationship.
I always subscribe to praise in public and constructively criticize in private.
Embarrassing someone in front of others isn't professional.  Sounds like you were doing a nice thing by paying him without having to work.  He probably will find out later the grass isn't always greener.

[sawguy21]

MH would you please give my boss a call? He could learn from you.

[redprospector]

Sound's to me like you handled it about right.
The hardest part of being in business is dealing with employees.
It seems that you have been blessed with a good crew that sticks with you. In the last 2 1/2 years I went through 24 people, trying to keep 2 working with me.
I actually had a guy that told me that he just couldn't get motivated. I told him that was ok, but before we get mad at each other over our difference in expectations, maybe he should try to find something else to do that he could get excited about. He stayed till Friday...I haven't seen him since.
I have heard rumors around town that I am a slave driver. Don't you believe a word of it.  :D

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

Some people are just going to be poor employees no matter what. But when dealing with employees, it's important to remember there are three categories of motivation a person can have in any given job.

1. The compensation. This includes pay, benefits, perks, etc.

2. The fulfilment. This means the work itself is rewarding (fun, satisfying, interesting, etc)

3. The treatment. How they are treated by boss, management, coworkers, clients, etc.

In order for someone to stay at any job, they have to have enough of at least one of the three things, in order to stay.  Some times people are desperate, and they will put up with things they normally would not.

Let's look at some scenarios.

1. After being out of work for three months, George found a job helping a mortician. He hates the work, it is disgusting, freaks him out, and gives him nightmares. But he feels he has to do something to support his wife and kids, and he earns more here than he could make flipping burgers or stocking shelves. The mortician he works for is friendly and patient. George sticks with it for three years until another opportunity comes up where he is able to move into a promising sales position.

2. Karen is fifteen, and loves horses. Unfortunately, she and her parents live in a small high-rise, and neither the facilities nor their budget allows for a horse. Karen spends as much time as she can, hanging around the stables a mile away from home. The owner sees her obvious love for horses, and tells her that if she wants to hang around, she needs to make herself useful. So she mucks out stalls, digs fence posts, stacks hay, and so on, just so she can be around horses. The owner is aloof and not real friendly, but Karen puts up with that and the hard work, just to hang around the pintos and palominos.

3. Mark started working at the local fast food joint when he was in high school, because his parents thought he ought to work. Within the first few days of work, Mark had hit off well with everyone-- the boss, the managers, the co-workers, and the customers. The managers and boss were great-- they collaborated to make an awesome work environment. Everyone had fun and enjoyed each other's company. All through college, Mark continued to work there, even though people told him he ought to find a higher-paying job. When he graduated college, his boss asked him if he wanted to become a manager. He said yes, he'd like nothing more. The pay wasn't as great as he might make if he had followed his mom's advice and become a paralegal, but he loved his boss and co-workers, and continued on there for the rest of his life.

So you see, there are three things that motivate people. If you want good people to stay, you have to make sure that their motivations are fed. A good worker that you have trained for several years is worth a lot more money than a newbie off the street. You have to get inside the mind of each of your people and find out what makes them tick. If they are a good, or even an adequate worker, you will do well to keep them, rather than having to train replacements every few weeks.

So-- long before they get bored, anxious, antsy, frustrated, etc., you need to actively meet their needs. Be sure they are receiving a good compensation, help them to understand and appreciate the value of their work, and treat them with respect and appreciation.

Besides that, you also should motivate your workers by setting goals and providing rewards for achieving these goals. This can be done in many ways, including:

1. Profit-sharing
2. Bonuses
3. Commissions for sales leads
4. Flexibility with scheduling
5. Occasional day off with pay
6. Pizza party
7. Fun trip, night out, etc.
8. Upgrades in equipment, tools, office furniture, break room, etc.
9. Words of appreciation

[giant splinter]

Ken
It looks like he solved the problem for everyone on his own, you owe him only for the time he worked and nothing more. Just be nice when he shows up to get paid and hopefully you have an operator filling his spot before he gets there. Chances are he would never have worked out anyway when you consider the way he bailed out. Sounds like you are treating your employees right and I would bet he will not be missed by anyone there.
Hope your next trip will be a perfect one.

[redprospector]

Some people are just going to be poor employees no matter what. But when dealing with employees, it's important to remember there are three categories of motivation a person can have in any given job.

1. The compensation. This includes pay, benefits, perks, etc.

2. The fulfilment. This means the work itself is rewarding (fun, satisfying, interesting, etc)

3. The treatment. How they are treated by boss, management, coworkers, clients, etc.

In order for someone to stay at any job, they have to have enough of at least one of the three things, in order to stay.  Some times people are desperate, and they will put up with things they normally would not.

Let's look at some scenarios.

1. After being out of work for three months, George found a job helping a mortician. He hates the work, it is disgusting, freaks him out, and gives him nightmares. But he feels he has to do something to support his wife and kids, and he earns more here than he could make flipping burgers or stocking shelves. The mortician he works for is friendly and patient. George sticks with it for three years until another opportunity comes up where he is able to move into a promising sales position.

2. Karen is fifteen, and loves horses. Unfortunately, she and her parents live in a small high-rise, and neither the facilities nor their budget allows for a horse. Karen spends as much time as she can, hanging around the stables a mile away from home. The owner sees her obvious love for horses, and tells her that if she wants to hang around, she needs to make herself useful. So she mucks out stalls, digs fence posts, stacks hay, and so on, just so she can be around horses. The owner is aloof and not real friendly, but Karen puts up with that and the hard work, just to hang around the pintos and palominos.

3. Mark started working at the local fast food joint when he was in high school, because his parents thought he ought to work. Within the first few days of work, Mark had hit off well with everyone-- the boss, the managers, the co-workers, and the customers. The managers and boss were great-- they collaborated to make an awesome work environment. Everyone had fun and enjoyed each other's company. All through college, Mark continued to work there, even though people told him he ought to find a higher-paying job. When he graduated college, his boss asked him if he wanted to become a manager. He said yes, he'd like nothing more. The pay wasn't as great as he might make if he had followed his mom's advice and become a paralegal, but he loved his boss and co-workers, and continued on there for the rest of his life.

So you see, there are three things that motivate people. If you want good people to stay, you have to make sure that their motivations are fed. A good worker that you have trained for several years is worth a lot more money than a newbie off the street. You have to get inside the mind of each of your people and find out what makes them tick. If they are a good, or even an adequate worker, you will do well to keep them, rather than having to train replacements every few weeks.

So-- long before they get bored, anxious, antsy, frustrated, etc., you need to actively meet their needs. Be sure they are receiving a good compensation, help them to understand and appreciate the value of their work, and treat them with respect and appreciation.

Besides that, you also should motivate your workers by setting goals and providing rewards for achieving these goals. This can be done in many ways, including:

1. Profit-sharing
2. Bonuses
3. Commissions for sales leads
4. Flexibility with scheduling
5. Occasional day off with pay
6. Pizza party
7. Fun trip, night out, etc.
8. Upgrades in equipment, tools, office furniture, break room, etc.
9. Words of appreciation

My, my, how things have changed.
We have totaly different views on employment (of corse that could be why I go through so many people  :D).
I believe that work ethic is instilled in each of us from a young age, and should be nurtured by our parents and others untill we are young adults. I was raised to believe that when I agreed to go to work for someone that I owed them the very best that I could do (quality, and efficency) for the wage that was agreed upon, whether it was $5 or $50 an hour I should give them all that I had to give.
If a person dosen't have a good work ethic, it doesn't matter how much you pat them on the back, or kick them in the butt, they just won't work out.
I was also taught that every job was only as challenging as you yourself make it. In even the most menial, tedious job your mind can be working trying to figure out a way to make it a little faster, safer, more efficient, etc.
There are exceptions to the rule, but generally if you treat your job with respect, your boss will treat you with respect.
It is not the bosses job to keep the employees entertained so that they will keep gracing the company with their presence. As an employee, one should not expect to recieve a raise as incentive to do more work, one should do more work in expectation of compensation. Not much makes me madder than to hear someone say something like; You don't pay me enough to do that, or; That's not in my job description.

Oh, and no one has thrown me a "pizza party" since I was in Jr High.  :D

Please don't take this personal. We just have different views of employment. And I know...I'm an old dinasaur in my way of thinking.

Andy

[Ianab]

The views aren't mutually exclusive.

What Okra is talking about is how do you KEEP the good workers?

Even with the best work ethic in the world, if you under pay and treat them like serfs, they are only going to stay until a better opportunity comes along. Sure I will fulfill my end of the bargain, and work to the best of my ability, for the agreed wage. Until I find something better, then I'm out of there. Finding and training my replacement is your problem, not mine,

Sometimes it's about money...
Sometimes it's about the actual job, something comes up that you WANT to do more, even if the money isn't as good.
Sometimes you just like working for an outfit, even if you could earn more elsewhere.

This shows up in a lot of the people here. they aren't usually in it just for the money. They like the work, the people they deal and work with etc.

Understanding that might help you keep the better workers? The ones with no work ethic? You can pick pretty quick, just let them wander off to be someone elses problem.

Ian

[Dan_Shade]

monetary compensation is generally viewed as a sustainer, not a motivator.

[ely]

if you keep the old dinasaur way of thinking in todays marketplace, you stand to lose alot more money to the training of new hires than you realize. if you figgure a large turnover then figure in the training involved it gets pricey quick.

there is middle ground to be had by both partys, short of catering to and babying employees.

[ely]

i do agree wholly on your view of work ethic,andy.

[barbender]

RedProspector, if you have went through 24 guys in two years, I have to wonder where you are getting your help from and how much you are paying. For example, if you are expecting experienced equipment operators for $7.50/hr,(not saying that's what your paying) if you happen to find someone to work they are going to have issues that keep them from working somewhere else that is paying the going rate for that trade, i.e. no drivers license, criminal background, drinking and drug problems or just a bad attitude. There are still people out there with a good work ethic, they may be gettin rarer but they are out there. 

[thurlow]

I expected him to show up Monday and my plans were to pay him for the 2 weeks and send him on his way.  Fortunately for my bank account he did not show. 

That being said what would be the best way to handle a situation like this?  I have been very fortunate that the vast majority of my employees have been with me for many years.   Cheers Ken

Pay him what he's owed and let him go (I've carried their last check to them when I knew they'd be at home).  It's been my experience that if you ask/beg someone to stay when they're wanting to leave, it never works out;  they may stay for the short term, but you'll just have trouble down the road.  btdt

[240b]

Fact is some people shouldn't be employers.

[ely]

and a good many more wont make employees ;D

[bedway]

Over my years as an employer, and we payed fair wages, i cant ever say ive seen an employees bad work ethics or productivity improve once given a pay increase. Have you ever heard someone say their payed to much? ;D Whether you make 15 or 50 dollars an hour we all think were under paid.

[drobertson]

When someone quits, in there mind, and waits till you are gone, this tells me that communications were never there. He wanted to talk, I am sure. If he has been an asset, I would discuss what is going on, and move on. Being a boss is every bit as hard as an employee, even harder, facts be known. But an employer is not one without employees.  Some folks have issues and find it hard to talk about. Pride is a factor, on both ends, It does seem like hunting trips, any trip as far as this goes, when the boss leaves, leaves a bad taste in the mouth. This being said, If he wants to try to break out on his own, all the more power to him, he will need help, and he will want to take off as well.  Lots of stress not only in logs but folks as well,   If you like him, and trust him, you might try to work it out, if not, it is time to move on.   david

[Ken]

Although I do not take the time to do written performance evaluations we did have 3 conversations since July with respect to his lack of effort.  I did add an incentive bonus to his wages for the weeks that he worked more than x hours.  Worked for a couple of weeks but that was it.  When we last talked, nearly a week before by short vacation, I asked him nicely if he needed a break.  I would have temporarily laid him off if that was his desire. 

I pride myself in treating employees with a great deal of respect.  That probably explains why many have been with me for more than a decade.  I've never fired anyone.  I would never reprimand someone in front of others.  Those making an extra effort will indeed be recognized.   As mentioned in my previous post a lot of our work in seasonal and mostly piece work.  Lots of people do not get invited back for the next season if they do not meet my expectations.  When someone makes an honest to goodness effort I will do everything I can to keep them going even if they are not the biggest producers.

I have spent most of this week in the seat of the harvester.  As my precommercial thinning work is wrapping up for the season I may not replace the operator just yet.  I've made some significant equipment investments over the past few months so it would do me good to spend the winter in the seat.  Production was up this week 8)

Cheers
Ken

[barbender]

Sounds to me like you did everything you could, Ken. My last job, I was just getting tired of it after 16 years. Great company, great pay, but I was bored with some things and frustrated with other things to the point it was starting to affect my performance- I just didn't want to be there anymore. The pay was never an issue, I may never have a job that pays that well again, and in my case, a bonus or something may have given me a temporary boost but would have only delayed the inevitable. Once my heart wasn't in it anymore, it was time to go.

[Okrafarmer]

Nothing is forever. Even good people get to the point where they want to move on. Not everyone. Some people are happy to stay where they are for many years, and they become a fixture. Others ride the horse as far as the next town.

Sounds like the fellow in the op was just not a dependable guy, but the world is full of that type these days. Some of these people growing up now, never had a father, or a good father, to teach them right from wrong. They never learned what the proper way to live is. There always have been some of those folks, but there seem to be a larger percentage now than there were in the old days. And even some from good families just are determined to be contrary.

[redprospector]

RedProspector, if you have went through 24 guys in two years, I have to wonder where you are getting your help from and how much you are paying. For example, if you are expecting experienced equipment operators for $7.50/hr,(not saying that's what your paying) if you happen to find someone to work they are going to have issues that keep them from working somewhere else that is paying the going rate for that trade, i.e. no drivers license, criminal background, drinking and drug problems or just a bad attitude. There are still people out there with a good work ethic, they may be gettin rarer but they are out there.

I'm getting my help localy. Town of 700 people and I've been through half of them.  :D
I don't think it's what I'm paying. I had one "skidder driver" that could have been (should have been) pretty good. But what that guy couldn't eat or tear up, he'd crap on. I was paying him $6 an hour more than what he made on his last job driving a skidder.
I want my guy's to make a decent living because that's what I always wanted when I was working for others. I only ask that they show up (on time) and do their job. If the job is done on time I generally give a bonus. I try to work around their schedules (let them take time off to go to Colorado & ride snowmobiles). Helped one guy get a pickup so he could get to work. 6 weeks later he was arrested for DUI, and the cop's got the pickup, and he still owes me $1500.
Hmm, maybe that's it. I'm a sucker, and just too nice to work for. No one want's to work for a sucker. I'll have to work on that.  :D

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

 ;D Maybe that's it. I had one boss (I liked him pretty well) who knew in part of his brain that he was a softy on people. He one day told me he should stop calling his business a farm and start calling it "_____ Brothers Savings and Loan." He would loan some of his people money to buy a vehicle or a house, and take it out of their paycheck. There were some who got a loan and skipped town.

He also had a quick temper and would fire people pretty rapidly. Sometimes very legitimately, sometimes because of stupid stuff. Usually because of a lack of responsibility at some level. But he never quit liking most people, because he would get over the blowup and it was all in the past. He wasn't the sort to hold grudges. Sometimes, whomever he fired would come around to visit a couple months later, they would strike up a conversation, the boss would ask, "so what are you doing these days?" They'd say, "Oh, nothing much, just trying to find work" and he'd say, "Well, so and so just quit the other day. You want to come back?" And he'd say, "Oh, I guess so." And he'd be back to work.

One guy held the record. He had been fired four times. On the final time, the boss told him, "Go home, leave your truck here, and we'll call it even."

[redprospector]

if you keep the old dinasaur way of thinking in todays marketplace, you stand to lose alot more money to the training of new hires than you realize. if you figgure a large turnover then figure in the training involved it gets pricey quick.

there is middle ground to be had by both partys, short of catering to and babying employees.

That is one of my biggest complaints. Investing in the training of a new employee and not having the oppertunity to recoup at least part of that cost. I think my employee problem is probably unique to this area. We used to be a logging comunity. Unfortunatly, most of the old loggers moved North when our forest was shut down by environmentalist law suits in the early 90's. Now we are a "tourist" town. It's hard to find much work ethic in people that grow up in a tourist town (there may be a few exceptions).

Andy

[redprospector]

;D Maybe that's it. I had one boss (I liked him pretty well) who knew in part of his brain that he was a softy on people. He one day told me he should stop calling his business a farm and start calling it "_____ Brothers Savings and Loan." He would loan some of his people money to buy a vehicle or a house, and take it out of their paycheck. There were some who got a loan and skipped town.

He also had a quick temper and would fire people pretty rapidly. Sometimes very legitimately, sometimes because of stupid stuff. Usually because of a lack of responsibility at some level. But he never quit liking most people, because he would get over the blowup and it was all in the past. He wasn't the sort to hold grudges. Sometimes, whomever he fired would come around to visit a couple months later, they would strike up a conversation, the boss would ask, "so what are you doing these days?" They'd say, "Oh, nothing much, just trying to find work" and he'd say, "Well, so and so just quit the other day. You want to come back?" And he'd say, "Oh, I guess so." And he'd be back to work.

One guy held the record. He had been fired four times. On the final time, the boss told him, "Go home, leave your truck here, and we'll call it even."

Hahaha, that sounds a lot like me. Except the "quick temper" part. I can't remember the last time I raised my voice to an employee. If I've got to yell at you, you're too much trouble.  :D
If I fire a man, he will stay fired. I won't subject myself to being pushed that far twice by the same man.
I have hired a couple of guy's back that had quit though.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

Well, you'd have to have known this guy, he's a real character. I enjoy stopping in to see him every time I go that way, which is more and more seldom these days.

[thenorthman]

So my logging venture is just me and a partner, occasionally the wife, in other words no one to fire or quit.  But I have quit a few jobs and been fired from a few,  the ones I got fired from 50-50 my fault/horrible bosses/I got setup.  The ones I quit where either I had the chance to make more money, hated the outfit, or just plain got tired of the job I was working.  The point is (I am quite drunk now) If they quit there really is nothing you can do about it, if everyone else is happy and been around awhile don't worry too much as long as you're still paying competitive wages.  The fact that you are concerned enough to ask what to do, means to me at least that you're a boss that does care about you're employees, which can mean allot to the werkin stiffs, as long as they are getting paid, and bennys are up to standard fir you're area, and they arn't completely dog tired at the end of the day no worries right? (but then I am drunk right now) ;)

[Okrafarmer]

That wasn't too bad a post, for being drunk.

[redprospector]

So my logging venture is just me and a partner, occasionally the wife, in other words no one to fire or quit.  But I have quit a few jobs and been fired from a few,  the ones I got fired from 50-50 my fault/horrible bosses/I got setup.  The ones I quit where either I had the chance to make more money, hated the outfit, or just plain got tired of the job I was working.  The point is (I am quite drunk now) If they quit there really is nothing you can do about it, if everyone else is happy and been around awhile don't worry too much as long as you're still paying competitive wages.  The fact that you are concerned enough to ask what to do, means to me at least that you're a boss that does care about you're employees, which can mean allot to the werkin stiffs, as long as they are getting paid, and bennys are up to standard fir you're area, and they arn't completely dog tired at the end of the day no worries right? (but then I am drunk right now) ;)

Ok, maybe that's another of my faults as a modern day employer. If I'm paying a man (or woman for that fact) $20 or more an hour, I pretty much expect them to be completely dog tired at the end of the day.

Andy

[Mooseherder]

That wasn't too bad a post, for being drunk.

Foster Brooks comes to mind when I hear that word.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Keep them "dog tired" and maybe they will get to bed at night to be on time tomorrow. And maybe sober. I had one fellow who thought work was when he felt like it after 5 days of drinking, then one good week, then recycle. Sent him down the road. On top of that was some family planning issues and a little bank fraud mixed in. ;D :D

Try thinning, I bet you'll get to bed at night. ;)

[thenorthman]

Sober now... Anyway keep a guy/gurl too tired and hes likely not to want to come back tomarow, feeling like you put in a hard days work is one thing but getting home and crashing on the couch is another, especially if'n they gots a family they want to spend time with, or projects around the house to deal with.  The point is even if your paying the best money around money isn't everything work is just a means to an end for most people, and if they quit well EDITED BY ADMIN  as long as it don't become epidemic...

[redprospector]

Sober now... Anyway keep a guy/gurl too tired and hes likely not to want to come back tomarow, feeling like you put in a hard days work is one thing but getting home and crashing on the couch is another, especially if'n they gots a family they want to spend time with, or projects around the house to deal with.  The point is even if your paying the best money around money isn't everything work is just a means to an end for most people, and if they quit well EDITED BY ADMIN  as long as it don't become epidemic...

Well, I guess that's another one of my dinasaur traits. That job is how they can afford to have a family (just like me). I try to pay my people well, and a lot of times, at the end of the job, they will have made more per hour than me (yeah I know, that's the nature of being self employed). They show up at 6 and work until 3. I show up at 4:30 and stay until everything is maintained, and repaired (usually 7 or 8, but sometimes 10 or 12) so that they can go to work and make their wages. Yep, I've given them everything I've got, so I expect them to give me everything they've got. If they crash on the coutch, that's fine with me because I'm still working so that they can make their 8 tomorrow.
I understand family time, that's why they seldom work Saturday's, and never work Sunday's. If they have something they feel they need to take time off for, all I ask is some advance notice so that I can make plans to acomodate them without disrupting progress too bad.
If that's asking too much, well I guess I should lower my expectations. Of corse lower expectations come with lower wages, they could have more time off and not be tired, but they might not be able to afford to do anything. They might not be able to drive late model trucks if I cut my expectations in half (along with their wages).
It seems that a lot of people have lost sight of the fact that if their employer isn't making money, they won't be making money either. Everyone want's to make $20 or better an hour, but they don't understand that they need to make their employer $40 an hour just to break even. Employers aren't there to break even, they have to make a profit or they can't stay in business.
It's economics 101.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

Trying to say it kindly, Red, it sounds to me like you actually don't have a viable business plan, if you have to put in 100 hours a week to make it work. That's going to kill you. Maybe you enjoy putting in all those hours, but it sounds to me like you don't really. We call people like that a workaholic. Someone who is so addicted to what they are doing that they can't make themselves back off. They are often driven by the idea (often real, often imagined) that if they don't work all those hours, their business will fall apart.

Now, with most business owners, there are times when desperate attention and long hours are needed in order to make it through temporary rough times. But when that comes to be a way of life, then something has to give. I have worked for bosses like that before. They were high-strung, difficult to deal with, and two of them tended to throw temper tantrums all the time, which made them real fun to be around.

One of those guys, his business would have gone fine if he had just backed off and given some of his management load to his family members and employees. Eventually, he had to, when he developed kidney failure, and cancer in his 50's. Surprise-- the business is going strong today, and he is now working 20-40 hours and his sons are doing most of the management.

The other guy, I have never heard how he is doing, but he truly had bitten off more than he could chew, he was sick as a dog, his marriage was on the rocks, the bank was growling at his door, and he truly did not have a viable business plan. He was in his mid 30's when I left-- and that was about 14 years ago-- and it would surprise me if he is still alive today. His whole demeanor was that of a drug addict, yet I don't think he was on anything, as far as I know, and he didn't drink or smoke even.

It's not wrong to put in a lot of hours, but if doing so makes you feel bitter toward those who don't, or if you end up still not making any more money, per year, or per hour, than your employees, it might be time to rethink things. I know I wouldn't continue on with a business like that. That's called spinning your wheels.

There may be ways to make your existing business more profitable. If the same thing is going on year after year, and this mode of existence is not merely a temporary thing, then maybe you need to look at it with a fresh perspective and see what it would take to make it more profitable and/or more enjoyable.

Or, if you are happy with the way things are, just keep on going. But it doesn't sound to me like you are.

[240b]

I worked part time for an outfit just the opposite of Red. The owner told me "Daddy told me if you were working' more'an 8 hrs a day somethings wrong" Huh?, I thought.  I worked alone for twenty plus years in the  woods, NOBODY I knew who was self employed EVER operated this way. So I thought this ought to be interesting. Well, something broke one day,and it was almost fixed (maybe two more hours and out of the shop.) Nope 4 o'clock, drop every thing and leave for the day. Heck this guy was peeling' out of the parking lot and the help was still cleaning up.(all the time, I alway thought the owner was last to leave.) So, now the whole next am was shot. Thing should have been finished and hauled out to the woods for the next day. He expected you to work 10+ hrs a day and you pay for eight. If I am driving your truck to your job with your employees in it. I think I ought to be on the clock. I have no problem with 10 12 hrs but a least pay the help for the time.  The other guys who had been there for years didn't like it but, were resigned to the fact that thats the way it is.  The guys wife told me not to call him if something broke down. "He'll get too upset" well, I did call him when equipment failed. I don't care, its his junk he needs to know. So, the usually answer was some sarcastic come back."The loader blew a packing, what do you want to do?"(fix it on site,pull the cylinder fix at shop?) "(*^^&($# %&%&%)*Y%$#^$**^*&, a normal person would fix it."  " OK, SOO what do YOU want to do?" Needless to say this behavior got pretty old. The business was(is) always behind on finishing jobs. Duh,Thats not to hard to figure out why. One of the other employees suggested we all carry crystal balls to consult, before addressing the owner.
Where I come from you work till dark, because somethings going break tomorrow or the weather is going to stink. You work till the equipments running again. And if somebody is helping you, treat them well, and I don't mean just with a pay check. 
Some young guy who I was talking to once said something about a business plan to me, said he needed to write one up. I think I said, that sounded like a fine idea. It is good to know your costs. Keep that paper in the truck because you'll need some tp someday, now go get to work.     Best advice I ever got was; be able to pay ALL the bills by working just two days per week, because the other four are going to be used by bad weather, looking at jobs, getting parts,waiting for other people,general screw ups,etc.....And always get one more hitch everyday..   Working for your self is lifestyle and a job, if you don't want that go punch a clock.

[clww]

240b-I enjoy your thinking and what you wrote. ;)

[redprospector]

Trying to say it kindly, Red, it sounds to me like you actually don't have a viable business plan, if you have to put in 100 hours a week to make it work. That's going to kill you. Maybe you enjoy putting in all those hours, but it sounds to me like you don't really. We call people like that a workaholic. Someone who is so addicted to what they are doing that they can't make themselves back off. They are often driven by the idea (often real, often imagined) that if they don't work all those hours, their business will fall apart.

Now, with most business owners, there are times when desperate attention and long hours are needed in order to make it through temporary rough times. But when that comes to be a way of life, then something has to give. I have worked for bosses like that before. They were high-strung, difficult to deal with, and two of them tended to throw temper tantrums all the time, which made them real fun to be around.

One of those guys, his business would have gone fine if he had just backed off and given some of his management load to his family members and employees. Eventually, he had to, when he developed kidney failure, and cancer in his 50's. Surprise-- the business is going strong today, and he is now working 20-40 hours and his sons are doing most of the management.

The other guy, I have never heard how he is doing, but he truly had bitten off more than he could chew, he was sick as a dog, his marriage was on the rocks, the bank was growling at his door, and he truly did not have a viable business plan. He was in his mid 30's when I left-- and that was about 14 years ago-- and it would surprise me if he is still alive today. His whole demeanor was that of a drug addict, yet I don't think he was on anything, as far as I know, and he didn't drink or smoke even.

It's not wrong to put in a lot of hours, but if doing so makes you feel bitter toward those who don't, or if you end up still not making any more money, per year, or per hour, than your employees, it might be time to rethink things. I know I wouldn't continue on with a business like that. That's called spinning your wheels.

There may be ways to make your existing business more profitable. If the same thing is going on year after year, and this mode of existence is not merely a temporary thing, then maybe you need to look at it with a fresh perspective and see what it would take to make it more profitable and/or more enjoyable.

Or, if you are happy with the way things are, just keep on going. But it doesn't sound to me like you are.

Well, I actually have a business plan, and we're pretty much right on track. I'll be initiating phase III early next year. I love what I do, I am not short tempered, or even rude to the people who work for me. I do however expect an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I get frusterated when someone tears something up to get out of doing something. Just makes extra work for me, and I've got plenty to do. It also messes up the flow of progress. My Dad used to say it was a 5 dollar bill waiting on a nickle when crap like that happened.
I think you hit pretty close on the problem in an earlier post. People aren't being taught to work at a young age. Heck, most of them are never taught to work anymore. Whether it's from a broken home, or what ever, it seems a majority feel that if you're actually expected to break a sweat....well, that's cruel and unusual punishment.
I don't know if you have employee's or if this is an exchange from both ends of the spectrum.
I work a lot of hours because I have a responsibility to the people that work for me. I can't tell them "go home, machine's broken". They need 40 hrs. a week, and it's my responsibility to make sure they have it. But in return, they should feel a responsibility towards the company, and that is usually where the problems start.
I was taught that if you're being treated right, and the company is doing what you were told when you signed on, that you owed them all that you could do. I'm not saying that the boss is alway's right, or that there aren't bosses who are jerks, but most of the people I've gone through feel that by gracing your job with their presence should be enough.

Andy

[redprospector]

I worked part time for an outfit just the opposite of Red. The owner told me "Daddy told me if you were working' more'an 8 hrs a day somethings wrong" Huh?, I thought.  I worked alone for twenty plus years in the  woods, NOBODY I knew who was self employed EVER operated this way. So I thought this ought to be interesting. Well, something broke one day,and it was almost fixed (maybe two more hours and out of the shop.) Nope 4 o'clock, drop every thing and leave for the day. Heck this guy was peeling' out of the parking lot and the help was still cleaning up.(all the time, I alway thought the owner was last to leave.) So, now the whole next am was shot. Thing should have been finished and hauled out to the woods for the next day. He expected you to work 10+ hrs a day and you pay for eight. If I am driving your truck to your job with your employees in it. I think I ought to be on the clock. I have no problem with 10 12 hrs but a least pay the help for the time.  The other guys who had been there for years didn't like it but, were resigned to the fact that thats the way it is.  The guys wife told me not to call him if something broke down. "He'll get too upset" well, I did call him when equipment failed. I don't care, its his junk he needs to know. So, the usually answer was some sarcastic come back."The loader blew a packing, what do you want to do?"(fix it on site,pull the cylinder fix at shop?) "(*^^&($# %&%&%)*Y%$#^$**^*&, a normal person would fix it."  " OK, SOO what do YOU want to do?" Needless to say this behavior got pretty old. The business was(is) always behind on finishing jobs. Duh,Thats not to hard to figure out why. One of the other employees suggested we all carry crystal balls to consult, before addressing the owner.
Where I come from you work till dark, because somethings going break tomorrow or the weather is going to stink. You work till the equipments running again. And if somebody is helping you, treat them well, and I don't mean just with a pay check. 
Some young guy who I was talking to once said something about a business plan to me, said he needed to write one up. I think I said, that sounded like a fine idea. It is good to know your costs. Keep that paper in the truck because you'll need some tp someday, now go get to work.     Best advice I ever got was; be able to pay ALL the bills by working just two days per week, because the other four are going to be used by bad weather, looking at jobs, getting parts,waiting for other people,general screw ups,etc.....And always get one more hitch everyday..   Working for your self is lifestyle and a job, if you don't want that go punch a clock.

Well said! 

Andy

[davch00]

I can attest to sometimes people get bored, tired of what they are doin, or want to do something different. A few months ago I finally got enough of the place I use to work and left and went to work somewhere else. I gave up some money in doing so but I also know money isn't everything.

If you are working that much and complaining about employees it kinda sounds like you might need to hire someone to help you manage and/or repair stuff.

About expecting someone to be dead tired everyday is a bit much unless you are paying extremely well. A honest days work is one thing but being dog tired every day is another. I know I wouldn't deal with that for very long. As I have told bosses before, I have a life outside of where I work. I know so people don't but I do. I do agree with that a lot of people are just plain lazy but there are good ones out there.

Anyways that's just my $0.02, I hope you can work something out for yourself.

[drobertson]

This thread has to have the record for the longest winded posts I can remember, And if I am wrong, then it wont be the first time.  Drinking and work have been around for many, many years. It always has the tail tell sign of disgruntlement.  This is why I believe in a close communication with the ones who are the closest to the front.  They fell like, (my experience) to be taken advantage of.  Contracts, or no contracts, everyone is responsible for their own decisions, but when booze inters the picture, the focus is always off. It takes an up front approach with respect and resolve.   I have to say, love and forgiveness covers a multitude of sin, for all parties.
Not trying to be a holy roller, just saying we all have issues that need refineing. There is a great story about a lost son, lost coin and lost sheep that come to mind, there is a value in the most minascule items,  david

[thurlow]

Not knocking anyone who's spent his/her life working for someone else (someone's gotta do it), but if you've never been the 'boss', you ain't got a clue.  I've signed paychecks on both the front and the back.......... 

[Corley5]

  The last guy that I had quit.  I guess he quit anyway.  I told him to take a couple weeks off and at the end of two weeks he was to call and I'd start him on the next job.  He got too far ahead on the job we were on and we lost some maple sawbolts to stain  >:(  That was my fault for not monitoring the situation better.  I had told him to slow up on the sawtimber and concentrate on the pulp until the forwarder caught up.  He knew more than I did and kept cutting.  When I paid him for the last week he brought up some money he felt I owed him for some work he'd done on my house.  He's an out of work general contractor.  I asked him for a bid on the drywall after he finished a couple smaller jobs and if he figured out a materials list I'd pay for it as I planned to bid the job not just let it to him.  His materials list was worthless.  He figured all the ceilings for 4X8 sheets.  That was the 1st thing I saw when he handed it to me.  I never referenced it again and came up with my own list.  We had some 16' sheets for the ceiling on ours.  He wanted me to pay him 125.00 for it when he got his last check for logging.  That was almost seven months later and after I gave him a job in February when he was down to rice and beans and paid him well.  I didn't pay him for his drywall list and his bid was high by $1,500.00 anyway.  He told me that it wasn't fair because he had so much work into it and I told him I wasn't paying for something that did me no good whatsoever and I never even referenced.  And then he told me he didn't believe that  >:( >:(  He left without that money.  Two weeks came and went and he didn't call me.  The catch is that he had my almost new 2172 Jonsered and associated supplies.  I called him at three weeks and he wouldn't answer his phone and his voice mail was off.  I tried several times over the next couple weeks and he wouldn't answer.  One day I was pulling out of a driveway after a firewood delivery closer to his neighborhood and I saw him coming in his pickup a 1/2 mile away.  He snubbed me.  Didn't wave when I did, no acknowledgement at all and then didn't answer his phone.  There was no possible way that he didn't see and recognize me.  I pulled out behind him as we were both headed towards town and he musta been doing ninety the way he left me in the dust.  I wasn't chasing him but it was pretty obvious he was avoiding me.  I tried to call him several more times that evening before I called the sheriff's dept with the story and the saw's serial #.  I took delivery of my saw with extra chains and bars from a deputy later in the evening.  I took it to the saw shop for a check up the next day and it was fine.\  That's my latest employee fiasco.  I fired a guy because he needed more $$$ to work harder.  He felt he wasn't getting paid enough to show up on time and work a full day.  Another guy quit before he got fired.  I jumped on him for spending much of my time talkng on his cell phone and smoking cigarettes while sitting in his truck.  When my other guy told him he'd better shape up he said it didn't matter that I was making lots of money anyway  : >:( : >:( >:( >:( >:(  I'm down to myself and one guy who likes what he does  8) 8) 8)   

[redprospector]

This thread has to have the record for the longest winded posts I can remember, And if I am wrong, then it wont be the first time.  Drinking and work have been around for many, many years. It always has the tail tell sign of disgruntlement.  This is why I believe in a close communication with the ones who are the closest to the front.  They fell like, (my experience) to be taken advantage of.  Contracts, or no contracts, everyone is responsible for their own decisions, but when booze inters the picture, the focus is always off. It takes an up front approach with respect and resolve.   I have to say, love and forgiveness covers a multitude of sin, for all parties.
Not trying to be a holy roller, just saying we all have issues that need refineing. There is a great story about a lost son, lost coin and lost sheep that come to mind, there is a value in the most minascule items,  david

You callin' me long winded?  :D

Andy

[redprospector]

Not knocking anyone who's spent his/her life working for someone else (someone's gotta do it), but if you've never been the 'boss', you ain't got a clue.  I've signed paychecks on both the front and the back..........

I can't imagine how this could have been worded any better.
I think this thread has been an exchange between those who employ, and those who are employed. Maybe we all learned something about the expectations of the other, but at the end of the day it's the bottom line that rules.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

If there's one guy who's hard to work for, and I mean real bad, it's the guy who has a business, and has never worked for someone else in his life. There are a few of them out there. Ooooh, there are indeed.  :-\ But not many, thankfully.

[thenorthman]

In my straight job, I am a supervisor (whatever that means...) so every once in a while I have to make the decision who gets to go and who gets to stay.  This is not something I consider fun.  However sometimes its very easy who gets to leave and not come back...  The last thing I want to do is fix someone else's mistakes, they should fix them, then they learn, if they don't learn, then goodbye.  If a guy is messing things up on purpose then he should be sent home to think about it (its childish behavior treat them like a child) does it again then take a hike and don't let the door hit ya on the way out... Normally I'm a pretty nice guy get your work done and everything is grand, if I am doing your job for you, HULK GET MAD.
    That being said fore those of you that are full time employers.  There is no reason that you should clean up my mess or anyone else's, make the mess maker do it "oh you ran the skidder into the swamp and left it there over night... grab  a "hand" shovel and start digging I want it out before sunrise or go home" etc.  May seem hard nosed but it won't take long to get your point across.

[Okrafarmer]

At the end of the day / week / month / year, it's a two-way street. Different people will act in different ways, because we are all different. I've been at my current job for three years now, longer than any other. My boss knows that my current position is merely a stepping stone to the next thing, and he and I have been talking about that for the last two years. We're finally getting closer to the reality of my next thing, and it's something we're both looking forward to, because it looks like my next thing will still involve and benefit him.

I hope, within the next year, to be an employer. I hope that being an employee or contractor for half my life has prepared me for the fearsome battles ahead.  :-\

[thenorthman]

If there's one guy who's hard to work for, and I mean real bad, it's the guy who has a business, and has never worked for someone else in his life. There are a few of them out there. Ooooh, there are indeed.  :-\ But not many, thankfully.

Ah the joys of working for Rickey rich, and his sister Shirley maintenance, Whats worse the lack of understanding pay check to pay check or the worthless office parties to boost "moral" I'm going to go with the Umbrella I got one year in lieu of a christmas bonus.  I live in Warshington dummy we don't use umbrellas hear except for fencing... and what about the 3,000,000 dollar profit you posted last month oh yeah you bought a hummer...(I'll stop ranting now) non of this was made up by the way... 

[redprospector]

In my straight job, I am a supervisor (whatever that means...) so every once in a while I have to make the decision who gets to go and who gets to stay.  This is not something I consider fun.  However sometimes its very easy who gets to leave and not come back...  The last thing I want to do is fix someone else's mistakes, they should fix them, then they learn, if they don't learn, then goodbye.  If a guy is messing things up on purpose then he should be sent home to think about it (its childish behavior treat them like a child) does it again then take a hike and don't let the door hit ya on the way out... Normally I'm a pretty nice guy get your work done and everything is grand, if I am doing your job for you, HULK GET MAD.
    That being said fore those of you that are full time employers.  There is no reason that you should clean up my mess or anyone else's, make the mess maker do it "oh you ran the skidder into the swamp and left it there over night... grab  a "hand" shovel and start digging I want it out before sunrise or go home" etc.  May seem hard nosed but it won't take long to get your point across.

Hahaha, I love it. Hard nosed? I don't think so. Unfortunatly the skidder is down for at least another day with this method and that's money out of the bottom line. In a case like this, I would meet him the next morning and say "I can't believe you even showed up this morning". Here's a check for what I owe you, have a nice life. Then I'd get the skidder out of the swamp and start changing fluids (I just couldn't trust that job to him after what he'd done).
It would be fun to hand him a shovel though.  :D
It's never fun when you have to be the one to decide who stays & who goes, and being a supervisor, you are the man that takes a little pressure off of the man that you work for.  8)

Andy

[redprospector]

At the end of the day / week / month / year, it's a two-way street. Different people will act in different ways, because we are all different. I've been at my current job for three years now, longer than any other. My boss knows that my current position is merely a stepping stone to the next thing, and he and I have been talking about that for the last two years. We're finally getting closer to the reality of my next thing, and it's something we're both looking forward to, because it looks like my next thing will still involve and benefit him.

I hope, within the next year, to be an employer. I hope that being an employee or contractor for half my life has prepared me for the fearsome battles ahead.  :-\

I hope you all the success in the world with your new business venture. Not saying you aren't smart or anything like that, but that's when your education will begin. There is absolutely nothing that can prepair you for the challanges of being your own boss. One word of advice that I got was If you're not the hardest S.O.B. you've ever worked for....odd's are that you won't make it.
The 1st thing you're likely to learn is about that 2 way street.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

At the end of the day / week / month / year, it's a two-way street. Different people will act in different ways, because we are all different. I've been at my current job for three years now, longer than any other. My boss knows that my current position is merely a stepping stone to the next thing, and he and I have been talking about that for the last two years. We're finally getting closer to the reality of my next thing, and it's something we're both looking forward to, because it looks like my next thing will still involve and benefit him.

I hope, within the next year, to be an employer. I hope that being an employee or contractor for half my life has prepared me for the fearsome battles ahead.  :-\

I hope you all the success in the world with your new business venture. Not saying you aren't smart or anything like that, but that's when your education will begin. There is absolutely nothing that can prepair you for the challanges of being your own boss. One word of advice that I got was If you're not the hardest S.O.B. you've ever worked for....odd's are that you won't make it.
The 1st thing you're likely to learn is about that 2 way street.

Andy

Good advice. I also realize that if someone quits, it's just another day. I've seen an awful lot of people quit from a lot of jobs over time, and so nothing like that will surprise me. What will surprise me is if someone sticks with it.

I've had bosses that were too soft, and others that were too harsh, and some that were both (schizophrenic). I've had a few that probably struck it just about right.

You are definitely right that I will be jumping in with both feet and can't begin to imagine how it will be. I think it's like marriage-- no amount of expectation can prepare you for what it's actually like. But unlike marriage, it doesn't have to be forever!  ;)

Anyway, I'm sure I will have my share of problems. One key thing to remember, for me, is never to depend on any one employee to the point that if they leave, everything falls apart. I think of them as people who make my work more efficient. The more they can keep me in the decision-making mode and sales-making mode, the more productive I'll be. If my chief _____ operator ups and quits, just means I'll be wearing that hat myself for a while, and being a bit less efficient.

It is in an employee's best interest to strive hard and work earnestly to build up the company they work for. If they don't do that, they are kicking themselves in the teeth. Some get that, some don't.

It is in an employer's best interest to strive hard and work earnestly to build up and do what's best for his employees, or else he goes back to being a one-man show-- or a no-show man.

[nhlogga]

[quote author=thenorthman link=topic=61000.msg896034#msg896034 date

Well, I guess that's another one of my dinasaur traits. That job is how they can afford to have a family (just like me). I try to pay my people well, and a lot of times, at the end of the job, they will have made more per hour than me (yeah I know, that's the nature of being self employed). They show up at 6 and work until 3. I show up at 4:30 and stay until everything is maintained, and repaired (usually 7 or 8, but sometimes 10 or 12) so that they can go to work and make their wages. Yep, I've given them everything I've got, so I expect them to give me everything they've got. If they crash on the coutch, that's fine with me because I'm still working so that they can make their 8 tomorrow.
I understand family time, that's why they seldom work Saturday's, and never work Sunday's. If they have something they feel they need to take time off for, all I ask is some advance notice so that I can make plans to acomodate them without disrupting progress too bad.
If that's asking too much, well I guess I should lower my expectations. Of corse lower expectations come with lower wages, they could have more time off and not be tired, but they might not be able to afford to do anything. They might not be able to drive late model trucks if I cut my expectations in half (along with their wages).
It seems that a lot of people have lost sight of the fact that if their employer isn't making money, they won't be making money either. Everyone want's to make $20 or better an hour, but they don't understand that they need to make their employer $40 an hour just to break even. Employers aren't there to break even, they have to make a profit or they can't stay in business.
It's economics 101.

Andy

If you pay well and dont scream and yell and treat your guys with respect and I was employed by you, everyone else goes home by 3, I would be the guy staying late or coming in early to help ya get things fixed/going, etc. It's almost to a fault on my part. I usually end up getting scewed in the end. I worked for an outfit once where I was paid by the day and paid well. The hard part was I was told the work day is 7 - 4 which is fine. If it rained and we had to leave early, then we got half a days pay. On the other hand, if I was asked to stay late there was no extra in the check so it didnt really work both ways. Besides that, 7-3 was really 6-5 for me because I had to get to the boss's house and get the co. truck and get all necessary things for the day and @ nite claen all the trash out and organize for the next day because the other guys trashed the truck. I brought some of these issuses but nothing was ever done. At the end, I didnt drive the co. truck anymore as it was not safe to drive. 3 other buys incl the owner drove it once and then parked it. Spriing break up came and I got laid off and 3 month later got called back but I had found somewhere elst to work and that is another story.

[learner]

I believe that if you Love what you do, everyday is a new experience, your wages pay the bills with some left over for play and needed things, then your far better off than most people.
I only have one employee right now but he loves the work, wages and no hurry atmosphere.  I have to keep telling him to slow down because rushing in This bussiness Will get you hurt.
Heavy equipment, Sawmills and Big trees allways win over the Human body. So take it slow and everyone wins in the end.
I think the same applies to anyone you do bussiness with.  If they do the job well and everything gets done, then all is well.  It's when you start thinking like a Manager and demanding more for your money that people start losing their Love of the job.
When that happens, people get hurt, production goes down and everyone loses. I'd rather have One Good employee that loves his work, than ten good employees that hate what they do. Keep it interesting, flexable, enjoyable, tough enough to make a person feel good about what they've done and earned, and you'll allways have good people working with you.
Yes, I say working With you.  Because if you have employees that feel like they are a part of the entire operation, and Not just a hired hand, then you have a Man or Woman that will stick with you through thick and thin.
If you give your employees That and they still quit then you don't want them working with you.  They have problems in their lives that Only they can deal with.  You can ask them if you can help, but Never let your desire to keep them influence your Own needs to survive and prosper.
If they can't deal with their Own problems, then you can't reasonably exspect them to deal with the problems of everyday bussiness. 
Times are tough and we all want to help each other.  But sometimes we just have to say goodbye and move on.

[thenorthman]

Very well said, current job going on 8 years that's a record for me, of the jobs I have quit most of the crew fallowed me out the door within a few months, same goes for the jobs I got fired from, any employer that treats his employees with dignity, and honesty will have a dedicated crew working for him or her.  I could make $10 more an hour at half a dozen shops in the same area, but they won't treat me nearly as well as where I'm at, plus I've burned most of those bridges :D
and don't care to rebuild them... a good half of the shops I used to work at are now defunct or under "new management" same diaper different dinner...

[Okrafarmer]

Good post, Learner. I almost think Teacher would be a better name for you.  ;)

[learner]

Well thank you Okrafarmer.  I have allways believed that the day you stop learning is the day you start dying.  So I think I'll stick with learner.  Oh, no offense to MM but MY sweetgum is drying very nicely too!  ;D

[1woodguy]

Played manager several different shops usually only had forty or fifty folks to deal with on the shift
Some were whiners and you constantly had to babysit ,afew could care less were there for a check, some listened and understood when you turned into mr a@&hole
Lots of the others understood that if you didn't get production some of the above and maybe they would be looking elsewhere for a check
Before long you could figure out away to get them to produce

Had more problems with the owners than the employees most poor production had to do with lack of supplys or parts to repair equipment or they stayed in the office and after awhile they had no clue how long some things took to do and because of that got behind on orders and expected everyone to forget life cause your life priority should be company comes first(actually had a guy want me to tell the employees that)
Or comes time to get rid of slackers and he won't back you because he knows so and so is a hard worker (guy was worthless lied all the time but could kiss up to the owner well)
  Had several quit that just wanted to try something different for a bit later ended up coming back had one do this three times he was a good hand would do what you asked
Had a guy push me into a position to fire him so he could get out of child support payment hike,had afew who only wanted to work to pay off tickets or courts then quit and when they got into a jam again wanted a job back
Fired or pushed some to quit cause they couldn't get along with anyone else
  As far as employing younger people had luck with maybe one in eight(talking city kids from Tulsa) larger percentage of decent help came from rural areas
Don't know how it is now this was 10/15 yrs ago
Learned to try to keep two or three folks around that could cover all the slots whenever possible they were my rovers and paid them more they were worth it
  Ran into a bit of guff at times when some refused to train them thinking it was job security by not doing so ,got rid of one who refused rest saw the light
Had several quit or threaten to when promoted(more pay but lost their security blanket) same folks complained about being passed over In the past and how theyWanted  to step up

Never was the owner bet if I was would have different point of view
Aboutt a lot of it

[Okrafarmer]

Good insights there, 1wg. Being stuck in the middle you get to see all sides of things.

[learner]

I've been at the top, bottom and middle. That's how I arrived at the balance I described above. If your management you Work the hours they want(for the same pay). At the bottom you Do what they want for little pay. In the middle you just get to listen to everyone complain and Still have to get the work done. But if everyone gains from the work done and goes home happy, well then you have Happy people that Love the work they do. And I may be wrong but when My employees Want to be at work then I've done the right thing.

[davch00]

In the middle you just get to listen to everyone complain and Still have to get the work done

So very true!