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Culverts--metal or plastic?

Started by sprucebunny, October 29, 2004, 04:41:11 AM

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sprucebunny

Need to replace and place some culverts. Logger says metal. Others say plastic. The ones in the snomachine trail that aren't buried good and get run over ,I was going to use metal again. Can't get heavey equipment there so can't bury it better.
What do you folks think? Plastic will probably last longer if it isn't abraded or squished by jerks in 4X4s. Metal less likely to float away but gets squished ,too.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Tom_Averwater

Plastic will get squished if not covered with 12" of gravel. Metal will end up the same if not covered enough. How big is the culvert? How about some scrap steel pipe or concrete sewer pipe.  Tom
He who dies with the most toys wins .

Ed

Don't underestimate the plastic culvert, It's a double wall material & alot stronger than you think. I made the mistake of questioning a buddy about it, so he set the excavator (690 Deere) bucket on it & proceeded to lift 1 set of tracks off the ground. It deformed the tube, but not enough so that it didn't spring back.

Ron Scott

We've had good luck with both in our haul and forwarding roads. Both were used in our last road with a lot of "heavy" traffic and both held up well.

As previously mentioned, the secret is to use the right size for the water flow, align them properly at the correct depth in the drainage bed, and cover them with a least 1 foot of gravel. It's also good to "armor" around the ends with some stone and do periodic maintenance to keep them "cleaned out".

To do otherwise is usually a waste of time and money.
~Ron

Tillaway

Lots of plastic being used today, but it does burn in a wild fire. ::)
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Murf

I agree with Ron's sentiment, do it once and do it right.

We bit the bullet a few years back and walked a mini excavator back in to do a few up here.

You can't believe hox long it takes to cover a 15 minute ATV ride with a little tracked excavator, but I digress.

We dug down and poured very crude concrete box culverts in each of three trouble spots. We haven't had a problem or had to touch them since.

In one more trouble spot we built a small bridge this spring, we got inspired by that Craftsman commercial on TV, to allow more water to flow. It seems to be working well, even the biggest of rains no longer back up behind it, we'll see what happens with the spring melt.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

bitternut

I vote for plastic and so do all the town highway crews that I know of. Plastic lasts longer, is cheaper and easier to handle. It is also easier to cut. Installed a 20' by 30" diameter plastic culvert in my creek all by myself by hand. Try that with a steel one. Also installed some 8" ones in some wet spots that are only buried about 6" below grade. I drive over them all the time with a 7000# tractor with no problems. They are plenty strong enough. Definitely go with plastic. You won't be sorry.

sprucebunny

Thanks for the answers. I'd forgotten about steel pipe. Will get that for the one in the trail if I can 'cause it gets alot of abrasion and I can't get equipment there to bury it better. The plastic is easy to handle .Already put a 10" X20' piece in and will use that where ever I can. Not too worried about it burning.
The exciting part will be dragging the pipe a mile down the trail with the 4wheeler. Need to make one of those skid plates.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

sprucebunny

Murf-- Oh yes ---I can believe how long it takes to get there.
The main trail I have is very rough and tracks on a 4wheeler are not at all a gentle ride. My problem culvert is 15 minutes away with the 4wheeler and you'd need a helium filled assist of some sort to get an excavator there.
Not only is it wet but the washed out hills aren't flat enough for equipment and the dirt they pushed out of the road with a bulldozer years ago is the kind that when you move it, turns to pudding.
There's 4 kinds of 'muck' in NH according to the soil survey and I got em all :-/ !!
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Ron Scott

Steel pipe or well casing may work and hold up well but will often plug due to its often smaller diameter size. More maitenance is needed to keep the flow open so they don't plug.

Use the correct size for the possible heavest water flow. It will also keep the culvert flushed out better. Back here on Federal land its pretty much an 18" minimum culvert size and the county will allow a 12" minimum size depending upon flow.

Both require a minimum of 1 foot of fill over the culvert. Most states have a standard for their Best Management Practices to be used.
~Ron

SwampDonkey

Same here as Ron suggests, 18 inch minimum on all crossings and 1 foot grade over top. All alterations to water courses, installations and crossing have to be monitored by on-sight inspectors now, even on private land.  :-/ Don't know what's going to happen next as they still have no clear definition of wetlands. Apparently, a seasonal spring that dries up in summer, but only seeps in the wet season is part of the watercourse definition now. At one time it was just streams mapped on 1:10,000 orthographic projection maps. We'll soon need $10,000 roads to cut $6,000 of wood.  ::)

cheers

[Edit] I called the department of envirment today to confirm if a certified watercourse installation inspector was needed for alterations or installation on watercourse. (boy that's a mouthful). They told me its not neccessary to have an inspector on site as long permits are approved by the department. It seems I was misinformed by the local marketing board, as they have a staff member who is certified by taking the course at the MCFT. The certification is mostly for those folks that want a blanket certification for multiple installations such as a supervisor on crownland or a large contractor who cuts wood on several woodlots with several stream crossings.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sprucebunny

I know just what you mean , SwampDonkey. Same stuff here. I figure they can't get too mad if I just fix what's there. Has a 17" culvert now . I may have to get 2 twelve" which I know isn't the same but if I do nothing will be worse mess.
No one has even cleaned the sticks out for years, that was job#1
Am very irritated that I could be arrested for fixing damage that people in 4X4s with big tires did but no one does anything about the people with the big tires.
 Consciense and responsibility seem to be thier own punishment.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

SwampDonkey

I edited my previous post made earlier after talking with DOE today. See edit above.

I also asked to have something in writing that states that it was an option to have the certified inspector or just use the permit provided by DOE, as was always the case. They said they didn't have a pamphlet and would need to speak with a supervisor before writing such statement. Aparently, my simply asking for this information in writing means there is some kind of conflict.  ::) I told them I was looking for clarification and people aren't just going to take my word for it, they'de like to see it in writing. That got nowhere. So they asked me for a contact name so they could call and tell them their information was false concerning the issue. I said that was fine and it was their responsibilty to make sure the public knows this and I thanked the individual for willing to make this clarification with one of their certified inspectors. I knew when I was talking to contractors, who have been cutting and building roads lately, that the onsite certified inspector was not required as long as the permit was approved. Of course the DOE would recommend that an inspector be on site, but it's not a requirement. I also had to make 4 phone calls to get an answer, all long distance.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sprucebunny

Well it wasn't all that easy but I didn't break any of my toys or hurt myself so it was a good day.
Had to buy a NEW 16" pipe couldn't find used. Got it loaded on the big trailer (10k# dropdeck) next to 4wheeler. Had to get it cut off. Unloaded with backhoe (800#) w/ front edge on back of 3k# atv trailer. Chained it on and dragged it 3/4 mile to damaged culvert. Yanked it off trailer using tree.
Then it got interesting. I'd already had to use the winch to drag the atv, trailer and pipe to where it was and now it's on the ground and needs to get spun 90*. Fortunately alders are well rooted. Chains, strap, 4 part pulley, used em all.
Had to dig a couple of good size rocks out from under the cold water. But I got er done. And I won't have to do it again. 8)
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

JD350Cmark

When they need replacing at my place, I am going with the smooth bore plastic culverts.  In my unofficial scientific study I think the water flows better in the smooth bore's and rocks, silt etc tend to flow better and the culvert cleans it self out easier.  I've done a few 18"ers in the last few years that replaced metal ones.  This week I am replacing a 36" X 60' metal culvert that rotted out and caved in with plastic.  The big ones slip together a lot easier than I thought, but it takes a lot of liquid soap. 8)

I also agree that the plastic one are every bit as strong as the metal ones.

Sprucebunny:  hope that water flows where it's suppose to. :)
2004 Wood-Mizer LT40HDG25

Quartlow

Quote. I may have to get 2 twelve" which I know isn't the same but if I do nothing will be worse mess.
.

Actually 2, 12 inch pipes will give you the same flows as an 18 inch pipe. To double the flow of any pipe you add 1/2 the diameter to the existing diameter.
Examples
to double the flow of a 1 inch pipe add 1/2 inch for 1 1/2 total
to double the flow of a 2 inch pipe add 1 inch for a 3 inch total

Just one of those stupid tidbits of information thats stuck in my head
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

SwampDonkey

Hmmm

Area of a circle is (pi x Diameter squared) / 4

lets say D = 10 inches

so A = (3.14 x 10^2)/4= 78.5 sqr inches

double A = 157

so, 2A = (3.14 x D^2)/2
then 4A/3.14 = (3.14 x D^2)/3.14
rearrange things...
D^2 = 4A/3.14
D = SQRoot(4A/3.14)
D = 14.14 inches to double the flow

to verify:

A = (3.14 x 14.14^2)/4
A = 157 square inch hole  ;D

But, your method isn't far off, even for large diameter culverts ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Quartlow

QuoteHmmm

Area of a circle is (pi x Diameter squared) / 4

lets say D = 10 inches

so A = (3.14 x 10^2)/4= 78.5 sqr inches

double A = 157

so, 2A = (3.14 x D^2)/2
then 4A/3.14 = (3.14 x D^2)/3.14
rearrange things...
D^2 = 4A/3.14
D = SQRoot(4A/3.14)
D = 14.14 inches to double the flow

to verify:

A = (3.14 x 14.14^2)/4
A = 157 square inch hole  ;D

But, your method isn't far off, even for large diameter culverts ;)

GOOD GRIEF!!! what the heck was that, you trying to make my head hurt? I think my way is simpler LMAO!!!
 :D :D :D :D :D
So at the risk of sounding stupid how far off was I?
and my came from my brother in law who worked at Wheatland tube for the better part of his life, he always said it was close enough.
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Quartlow

Duh, 14.14 inches versus 15 inches my way,
ok do all that math doubling the flow of a one inch pipe and I won't be very far off at all

I never did get algebra :P :P :(
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Quartlow

ok now I get it actually its way off

the area of a 15 inch pipe is
176.7145

the area of a 10 inch pipe is
78.5398
doubled is
157.0796

big differance 19.6349 square inches

But now I understand why they did it like they did,

area of a oneich pipe is
0.7853 doubled is
1.57

to get an exact match you would need a pipe about 1.414 or 1.5 to get close enough, the larger you go the further off it gets but since they only made small pipe it was close enough

no I didn't figure it out on my own
http://math.about.com/library/blcirclecalculator.htm
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

SwampDonkey

Quartlow,

Was that the long method? ;) Just kidding. If you noticed at the bottom of my post, I tried giving you the credit for your methods. Part marks for laziness. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Quartlow

no problem , I realize you where giving me credit for my thoughts on the subject,  To tell you the truth I never gave the subject much thought, mostley since the whole algebra and geometry thing pretty much eludes me. Thankfully theres a whole world out there where people have put programs online for dumies like me  :D :D :D  

You just kind of tweaked my intrest in it for a moment and I had to do some figuring for myself and since I couldn't sema to get the numbers right with your formula I had to go snooping around some, HAd to figure out where I ws going wrong you see, :P :P

And yes that was the LOOOOOOOOONG!!! methond  :D :D
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

SwampDonkey

ok, I'll give you that.... ;)

All I did was to use the Area of a circle to calculate the mouth of a 10 inch pipe, then I doubled the area to find the diameter required. So there was a bunch of rearranging of the formula and variables. The first section used diameter to find area, the second part used double the area to find the required diameter. ;)

Sorry for the confusion, I was skipping intermediate steps as I was rearranging the formula.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bill Johnson

See lots of posts here about the size of the culvert, but shouldn't one also consider the size of the watershed being drained when replacing or installing culverts.

Lots of old pipes were just dropped in the ground, covered up and hoped for the best.  The way I understand it now it's recommended that depending on the length of time the pipe will be in the ground (temporary or long term) that flood events also be considered when sizing pipes.

For instance on a short term install 1-2 years it may be acceptable to use a 12" pipe based on historical data but in the same crossing for long term use an 24" pipe might be recommended.

Just my 2 cents on this.  

Plastic or steel it don't really matter as long as the installation is well done and up to spec.
Bill

Gary_C

A note of caution about plastic culverts. The local township board tried plastic culverts in one road and when the center of the road was packed and had settled, the ends of the plastic culverts were turned up and would not drain properly.

Plastic will bend much more than steel, so if you do not have a very solid base for the culvert, plastic may not be the best choice.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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