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I'll kick myself when someone tells me what tree this is

Started by Woolywolf, March 12, 2009, 04:39:33 PM

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Woolywolf

This one has got me completely baffled.  It's a little understory tree with evergreen leaves and minutely toothed/crenate margins.  The leaves don't have any smell to them, and the underside of the leaf is pubescent.  It looks like it has opposite branching--at times--and at times alternate branching that could be tightly clustered.  A few leaves are turning a purplish color and dropping.  Deer have been chomping on the leaves.

It was found on a piedmont soil with pines (loblolly) and lots of hardwoods--northern red oak, beech, yellow poplar--on a north facing slope close to a little intermitent stream.  I thought that maybe it was Gordonia Lasianthus, but the habitat doesn't seem to fit what it is ussually in, and the underside of the leaves are pubescent.  Any ideas?








DanG

"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

ely

looks like a rhododenron or ever how you spell that. the leaves look like a fruit tree though.

SwampDonkey

Might not even be evergreen, some shrubs/trees can retain old leaves until spring in milder climates. I've seen red huckleberry do it on the north coast of BC.  That sure reminds me of a viburnum. I know it ain't wild raisin, leaf stem isn't winged, but what about blackhaw? Took me a while to figure out where I seen that structure and leaf underside. There are probably other viburnums not in my book, but that's got to be the genus.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Chico

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SwampDonkey

Could very well be, leaf looks kinda dull and broad though. But, sometimes them Audubon pictures are much to be desired.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

fishpharmer

could it be Symplocos tinctoria,  Common Sweetleaf?

Does it taste sweet?

This is just a guess.  Not sure.

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Banjo picker

Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

WDH

I am thinking fringe tree, Chionanthus virginicus.  It is deciduous, however.  Those leaves look a little beat up, so maybe they are tardily deciduous and are just hanging on.   

It is not horse sugar since your specimen is opposite branched and horse sugar is alternate.  It is not sweetbay since sweetbay is alternate and the undersides would be reflective silver.

The thing that bothers me is that the bark is darker than I would expect from fringe tree.  Hmmmm.  If it flowers, that will tell the tale.   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I've settled on a viburnum species, leaves are often pubescent and opposite. We'll know when she flowers. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Banjo picker

Quote from: Banjo picker on March 12, 2009, 09:30:00 PM
Sweet bay     .     Tim

I am going to have to hang in there like a hair in a biscuit on this one for a while yet anyway.  I think the sweetbay leaves kind of grow in a wad or whorled I believe its called.  And as to the silver underbelly, as WHD said I agree.  Look at the third pic. down.  It looks a little like it might be that.  Buts theys a bunch of trees in just the bay family, and it might be one of them others as well.  ;D    The sweetbay down here tries to act a little like a evergreen like SD mentioned.  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

WDH

The oppopsite branching narrows it down to a potential handful.  It can only be a couple of plants. 

It might be Viburnum nudum, Possumhaw.  If I had to bet a million $ on it, I would go with Possumhaw over Fringe Tree at this point without the telling flowers.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Sure wish I was standing right there over the little bush. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Woolywolf

I've looked in all my tree books.  It doesn't meet all the critera of any given species, so maybe I've found a new species--o r maybe not  ;).  I think what's throwing me off is the branching pattern.  I learned in dendrology that if you can find a few instances of opposite branching then the tree is more than likely opposite.  But I don't think that's the case here.  I think it's an optical illusion.  I agree with Banjopicker that maybe this guy really is alternate and so tightly alternate at times that it appears to be whorled or opposite.  Instead of sweetbay, I think that it is Loblolly bay.  Sweetbay, since its in the Magnolia family, usually has stipular scars that circle the twig, while this tree doesn't.  Although it does have minute toothes, they are not like those of Viburnum prunifolium, and it doesn't have the rusty red hairs of rusty blackhaw.  The more I think about it, the habitat seems like a prime candidate for loblolly bay--cool and wet--even though it is not a sandy coastal plain soil.  Raleigh is right on the edge of the piedmont and coastal plain.  I'm not very familiar with sweetleaf, so I'll have to go back and have a chew.  I know the leaves didn't have any smell to them, which also make me think that it is loblolly bay. 

WDH

The pics show it to be decidedly opposite branched from what I can see.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

It's not a Sweet Gum!

I keep trying to make it a Paw Paw.  I know the leaves don't seem to be right, not long, pear shaped and the sharp serrations don't fit.  But, wouldn't it be great to have a Paw Paw there?

SwampDonkey

Viburnum ;D I have lots of books and no book lists all the shrubs out there. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Tom,

There are some fine paw paws just east of there!  I know because I ate some there this last fall ;D.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33342.0.html
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

I sure wish I had some around here.  I found some on the Satilla years ago, but that is a long way to go to fight coons for the fruit.

DanG

Tom got it again!  It's a Notsweetgum tree! 8) 8) 8)  I think I'm beginning to get the hang of it now.  It's the opposite-alternate-whorley branching pattern that tips him off.  That's a dead giveaway for a classic Notsweetgum tree. ;D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Banjo picker

Tom's  thinking here reminds me of reading  of the Cat in the Hat's way of finding a lost treasure.  You eliminate where its not till you finally arive at where it is.  So I will be a sport and wipe out several possibilities..  Its not a pine. ;D  Someone else's turn.  Tim. 
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Ironmower

Sure looks like a Paw Paw to me. Time will tell ::) Boy they grow good here, seem to like stream & river banks, and shaded areas. Heck, I live 7 miles from the little town of Paw Paw W.V.  ;D ...................I've selected a few that I'm going to give some nurturing too. Gonna make some wine with'em. ; 8)
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SwampDonkey

Leaves are too small for pawpaw, especially growing in shade.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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