pole barn in ground part treatment?

timcosby · July 18, 2006, 10:04:54 PM

is there anything i can use on the part of the pole that goes into the ground to keep away insects and rot other than buying pressure treated 6x6's from the big box store. would love to use my own 6x6's.

Radar67 · July 18, 2006, 10:15:22 PM

Tim, I am about to build a pole barn of my own and was thinking about the same thing. I have about decided to pour a concrete peir with an anchor bolt on top. The pier would be above the ground by 6 to 12 inches. Arky had a post on here where he made his own metal fastener plates for attaching the posts to the pier. They were similar to the ones you find in the box store. I'm interested to hear what others are doing as well.

Stew

Larry · July 18, 2006, 10:34:12 PM

Pressure treating doesn't penetrate very far into the normal SYP lumber...so a 6 X 6 will only be treated maybe max 2" or so deep. When the first crack to the pith occurs (and it will) your timber will be exposed to the bugs and decay. Much better idea is to buy treated 2 X 6's. Build em up to a 6 X 6 and as soon as you get above ground level stagger and laminate to your home grown lumber.

End result is a far superior timber at less cost than a standard 6 X 6.

Really, guess my first choice would be hedge, black locust, white oak or walnut.

PineNut · July 18, 2006, 10:45:46 PM

My dad used a concrete pier with untreated post on construction in the 1940s. They were still in good condition when the structures were torn down in the late 1990s. Important thing is to keep the post dry like a large overhang on an open shed. I have an open side shed I built about 20 years ago with that constructin and it is still in good condition.

UNCLEBUCK · July 18, 2006, 11:20:28 PM

I save the waste oil from the tractors and use that and also go back every few years and give a sloshing.

If you check out Morton Pole buildings they are nationwide and have a free video showing a morton pole building going in and up and it is very informative and they do like Larry said and when you watch the video it really is so easy to see why their system is so good . Good luck timcosby

Don P · July 19, 2006, 07:05:16 AM

If you do need treated to the bone 6x6's order foundation grade, like the ones for a wood foundation. Heartwood is excluded from that grade, that's what keeps most of the regular ones from treating deep.

I've had some oily locust in the ground for about 15 years.

Jim_Rogers · July 19, 2006, 10:56:42 AM

There are several ways you can do this.

As mentioned you can pour piers and have your own non treated post on top, using some type of metal bracket to secure the pole to the pier.

You can treat your own pole with some wood preservative, and put it into the ground.
When I did my fence, many years ago, we went to the hardware store nearby and got some Cuprinol #10 "green" wood preservative. And just painted it onto our posts. Several coats just to above the finish grade line. Then back filled the hole with crushed stone to allow the water to filter through the stone, and thereby keeping the wood dry. This fence has lasted for many years.
Other customers of mine have used the Behr brand of preservative for "direct contact with soil" and have had good luck with it. They got it from home depot. Usually you have to order this from their paint department

Since that time I was shown another system called "the short pole system". In this system you use a short piece of foundation grade pole underground and stand a regular non treated pole on top of it above grade. And nail a couple of treated 2bys onto the sides of the poles to keep them in line.

As shown in this drawing:

This drawing shows how a short pressure treated pole is below grade and a regular non treated pole is above grade, with two pieces of pressure treated 2 by stock nailed or bolted onto two sides to secure the poles together.
If the pressure treated pole ever rots away, you just jack up your building just enough to support it and replace only the lower short pressure treated pole.
The amount each side 2 by overlaps the joint should be at least 3 or 4 times the width of the pole (not shown accurately here).

Hope this helps.

Jim Rogers

Raphael · July 19, 2006, 04:47:40 PM

Can you still get Cuprinol in Mass?
No Cuprinol allowed in CT. :(

breese · July 20, 2006, 07:37:28 AM

Tim, I had the same question last year when researching pole barn options. Cam across this information on the Morton website.

www.mortonbuildings.com/ValueInTheDetails/Materials/PermaColumns.shtm

I'll tell you that these things are slick. I've seen them in a couple of big pole barns in New York dairy country and they look great.

The price was too much for me so I started trying to come up with other options. What I ended up using was recycled sections of rectangular guard-rail material. The stuff they use around here is 1/4" thick, 5"x8" inside measurement. All galvanized. Poured footers about 40" down, placed a 4 1/2' foot length of the guardrail on the footer and filled with concrete to about 8" above grade. Cut 5x8's posts to fit inside and through bolted. Worked slick and didn't cost much more that the price of the scrap steel.

Jim_Rogers · July 20, 2006, 09:35:07 AM

I don't know if you can still get Cuprinol around here or not.
I haven't looked lately.
Why? What's up with Cuprinol?

Jim Rogers

Snag · July 20, 2006, 01:54:44 PM

I know you can stil get cuprinol in NY. At least 1.5 yrs ago we could. We put some on regular plywood about 15 years ago to use as a hatchway door. It is directly in the weather and still in great condition.

Raphael · July 20, 2006, 06:54:13 PM

I suspect the real problem with Cuprinol is some idiot dumped it down his floor drain and wound up killing a bunch of fish. What they told me at the lumber yard was that there was some concern about possible ground water contamination with misuse, but nobody had a clue what that would entail.

wesdor · July 21, 2006, 04:11:11 PM

I'm trying tp get enough money together to build a pole barn and have much the same questions as you regarding in the ground supports.

I have found an interesting web site, but can't speak to the quality and / or price effectiveness. Our son is a construction engineer and feels this is a good option to consider when we build the barn.

pole barn supports

Good luck on your search.

Tim L · July 21, 2006, 04:53:38 PM

Check some of my posts from the past , I had written in about sleeves or concrete piers for pole barns.

UNCLEBUCK · July 21, 2006, 05:06:33 PM

The free video from Morton pole buildings I have doesnt show anything of what breese is describing , it just shows the method that Larry describes and the cost really not that much and anyone can slam together a pile of these in a few hours ok. Its worth it just to watch the video one time

JimBuis · July 21, 2006, 05:42:24 PM

I have read about a process where you can burn the ends of poles enough to scorch them, but not enough to incinerate them. It seems that partially burned wood does not attract insects. Such wood is also rot resistant. I only know from having read about it not from experience.

Jim

mark davidson · July 23, 2006, 10:17:28 AM

for what it's worth, there is a building on our farm that was built 50 years ago with cedar poles 4 feet into the ground... a bit of creosote was a applied only to the area a foot above and below the surface of the ground. I would not bother using anything on posts now, but absolutely choose resistant trees.
This building has been used for livestock ever since construction, so those poles have not had the best life, spending most of the year soaking in the manure. however, I recently hit the tractor brake a bit early when turning in the building, and whacked one of the smaller posts with full force. no problem. the posts are still solid. even if the posts rot away in my lifetime, I would just scarf something to the bottom and carry on. I would add that these are good sized posts, the smallest would still be 16" diameter at the bottom and at least 8" at the top.
somtimes it's possible to look at the design and make post replacement easy, then you don't have to worry that the posts won't last. I would encourage anybody to check out pole building, it's cheap and quick and strong. Hard to imagine that the first timberframes would not have been built this way.

Don P · July 23, 2006, 08:09:36 PM

But, with both replacing or using the short pole method remember that pole barn construction gets its lateral, or sway, bracing from being buried 4' in the ground. In conventional pole barn engineering the bottom column connection is considered fixed, that is not the case with a patch. A short or patched post won't hold up in a big wind, some other form of bracing inside the building is necessary.

PineNut · July 23, 2006, 09:41:02 PM

I have a pole building with lots of internal bracing. It rode out Katrina with no problems. My dad's old pole shed built on concrete post rode out 100+ mph winds from hurricane Hazel in 1954. I have seen some without bracing but you have to look quick because they don't stay there long.

timcosby · July 24, 2006, 01:55:51 AM

thanks to all for the posts. i spyed some power poles the power company had taken dowm and piled up and not come back to get so they may be mine. thought i would use 4' sections burried 3' in ground as piers, pin with rebar down the center of pier and post and tie on outside with metal straps and x brace well on the inside.

firecord · July 27, 2006, 02:25:23 PM

My buddy has a shed built with pine poles, been in ground for 30 years. NO ROT AT ALL. Dug hole 2 foot deeper than desired, filled to post hight with gravel. Soaked pole ends in mixture of diesel and old oil before concreting over the gravel. Ofcoarse I don't think the EPA would approve.

thecfarm · July 27, 2006, 10:14:58 PM

Hello firecord and welcome to the forum.Update your profile and tell us where you are from.Don't be afraid to take a few pictures of that sawmill you are building.

Don P · July 27, 2006, 10:51:12 PM

This is another way, the concrete finishing leaves alot to be desired :

. The bottom plate has rebar welded to the bottom and is set in the fresh concrete. The upper flat plate with the knifeplate welded to it is inserted in the end of the post, drilled thru post and vertical knifeplate, and then pinned. The post is located and the plates then welded together.

Don P · July 28, 2006, 10:09:35 PM

That's what I get for taking a picture of that tube. We started the porch today, not sure what happened but that sucker is several inches off. I did the layout and the homeowner did the pour, sweat equity. I showed it to him this morning and raised my hand, thankfully he has a sense of humor. Monday my name is going to be John Henry :-[.

Measure twice, pour once
or
Measure once, pour twice :