Red maple after aspen harvest

BEEMERS · October 01, 2016, 08:57:03 PM

I have been harvesting Bigtooth Aspen and whats in the understory is mostly red maple.
These trees are 16 inch on down with average about 6 -8 inches and look like very healthy trees but are obviously suppressed as theAspen is big..up to 26 inches and 120 feet 130 feet tall...the maple always much less.
When the aspen is gone the maples are not skinned ,busted up, tops broke...well are few are gone.. if I wreck them I cut them out but the remaining trees are mostly untouched.
I would think these suppressed trees would just explode with new leaves given all the sunlight but no....many look very thin.....small leaves...look like they are struggling after the cut...and this has been consistent over several areas for several years..
some trees look healthy but on the whole....not any better if not worse than when in almost total shade..some even die in the tops that were healthy before.
done in winter and soil is not affected at all....trees are just given full light where they were in full shade before..
Is this common? Why is this?

thecfarm · October 01, 2016, 09:28:45 PM

Sun burn??

BEEMERS · October 02, 2016, 12:30:30 PM

Is that a joke?...or is there such a thing with trees?..I mean,after a lifetime in the shade and suddenly complete sunlight I wonder if some species go into shock and its hard to adjust?
Like humans adjusting to sunlight...skin wise...after the winter burn easily but after the summer dark tan and don't burn..?
you may be onto something...most plausible theory so far...even if the only one!!
can anyone top sunburn?

thecfarm · October 02, 2016, 01:01:11 PM

I know hemlock can get it. I saw a lot cut hard on one side and the other guy had some hemlock on his side. The hemlock was burned on the side was cleared,the side that was not cut looked good. Or I blamed it on the sun. Was many trees that looked that way.

Clark · October 02, 2016, 03:55:24 PM

I think you are dealing with trees that are accustomed to growing in the shade and they have crowns and roots that are fit to grow in the shade. You now make them dominant trees that are growing in full sunlight and they experience stresses they haven't grown into. Some species have no problem with this (conifers in general) and others seems to really struggle with it (hardwoods seem more likely to display this).

Clark

Ken · October 02, 2016, 05:50:29 PM

I think Clark nailed it. Those red maple trees started when the poplar did and have become accustomed to living in the shade. If they were sugar maple there would be a much better chance of them responding positively as sugar (hard) maple are shade tolerant trees.

BEEMERS · October 03, 2016, 10:16:00 AM

I'll consider my question answered. thank you ForestyForum.

BurkettvilleBob · October 19, 2016, 06:25:15 AM

What would the solution to this problem be? Should the Aspen be removed more gradually, giving the maple more time to adapt?

GAB · October 19, 2016, 09:45:24 AM

Back in 1980 & 81 I clear cut an area around the house and left all the maples. Some of these trees were 20+" in diameter. County forester told me they would all die from sun poisoning or sun burn because I opened the area up too much at once.
Fast forward to 2016 and he was pretty accurate in his statement as there are 2 left and one is not well, as the leaves are smaller than they should be.
If I understand it correctly aspen and or poplar are trees that grow fast and shade other trees, such as maples, so they can get started and over time gradually die off leaving the maples to continue growing.
Mother nature at her best.
Gerald

Ox · October 19, 2016, 09:51:46 AM

It is my understanding that birds eye maple comes from trees that struggle all their lives. Maybe some of that at work here?

barbender · October 19, 2016, 02:22:03 PM

Paper birch seems to not respond very well to being released. I had birch and red maple growing in the understory of the aspen on our property. I left most of it when I harvested the aspen 8-10 years ago. I wish I had just cut it all, as both species are in tough shape. On many of our aspen harvest sites, the foresters require us to run any unmerchantable timber over (this is common for red maple) because they don't want it to shade the aspen regen. "I hate those things" told me one UPM forester ;D

Gary_C · October 19, 2016, 02:58:36 PM

Yes, Red Maple is considered undesirable and not worth much when harvesting. Even the larger ones go mostly for pulp and it's difficult to find a good saw log plus the species is not a good commercial product in the hardwood markets.

Clear cut it with the Aspen.

Clark · October 19, 2016, 06:05:47 PM

Quote from: Ox on October 19, 2016, 09:51:46 AM
It is my understanding that birds eye maple comes from trees that struggle all their lives. Maybe some of that at work here?

No.

Clark

Ox · October 19, 2016, 06:20:12 PM

I'd like to know more about birds eye maple, Clark. If you have the time and feel like explaining to me...

I try to learn something new every day.

Clark · October 19, 2016, 11:37:44 PM

There's probably more false information about birds-eye maple (BEM) then actual information. No one really knows what causes it. The upper peninsula of Michigan, which grows very good maple, is known for growing a higher % of BEM than other places. Again, no one is sure why.

The above situations, where red maple is trying to grow after being released, is not typical of BEM maple. It doesn't seem that stress plays a part in BEM and the released red maple talked about are undergoing severe stress.

Clark

Ox · October 20, 2016, 01:23:15 PM

Thanks very much, Clark. :P

BEEMERS · October 20, 2016, 06:34:18 PM

Anyone have a picture of a maple that is birdseye? not in boards but standing? The trunk I mean...
I wiped out one maple by accident it was very bumpy..continuously bumpy with little..tiny ..like a leaf stem maybe? sticking out of each bump...kind of like a hair but not that,,crap..i don't know.
next time will think of what I want to type instead of think typing.
anyway..it looked very odd and suspicious I meant to leave it but couldn't turn trees around it.Too small to be any lumber I just wanted to see what it would become...It didn't look very good never seen another,wondering if it was on the way to being a future birds eye.

Ox · October 20, 2016, 08:34:39 PM

Beemers - I believe you just described a birds eye maple. From the old literature I've read on it this sounds exactly the same. It's when the tree tries to send out little limbs but they never take off and grow. They die then the tree tries again next year. I hope this info is correct, it's what I remember reading.

Jeff · October 21, 2016, 08:26:37 AM

How do you guys think these will do? They were growing in a declining tag alder thicket, and had reached a size where they were a bit taller than the alder. I cleared this out last week to givevart a view to the field from the cabin, and also to release the Wolf River apple tree that was basically being smothered.

Ron Wenrich · October 22, 2016, 07:53:21 AM

Now that I have the time, I started to thin out my little woodlot. It has come up as an abandoned field with the bulk of it in soft maple with scattered ash, walnut and cedar. There were a few Scotch pine volunteers, but they have since died. The maple is mainly sapling to poletimber size. What I've been doing is thinning to a basal area of about 70 or a little heavier. I'm looking at crown expansion. All the understory has been taken out, and I have mulched the tops.

I only do this in the fall and there is a lot of manual labor involved. What has happened is I have a nice understory of grasses. There will be areas where I take out some bigger trees for firewood or due to poor form.

I have always used this as a guide to the way I thin. The poor goes first. That may be due to form or species. Size should be irrelevant, if you are looking at future growth. I thin down keeping the basal area at about 70. I can be higher in conifer stands. Thinning should be to allow for crown expansion. It gets rid of the sun scalding and the epicormic branching that you see on heavily thinned stands. You also retain moisture in your stand by limiting the amount of direct sunlight to the forest floor. It can be a plus or a minus, depending on the stand.

Thinning using the basal area guide and looking at crown expansion is a huge departure from looking at the forest and only seeing sawlogs. The favored cutting on many stands is a diameter limit cut. Everything above a certain diameter is cut. You end up with a stand that consists of suppressed trees and reproduction that tends to be stump sprouts instead of seedling sprouts. The next harvest probably won't be so good.

If you're looking at a reproduction cut, then it probably is better to use a shelterwood cut for heavy seeded species. That means you go in there and cut everything in the understory and allow it to seed in. The surpressed trees are gone, and won't be in the next forest cycle. After you have established regeneration, then you cut the overstory. For lighter seeded species, you cut heavier. They tend to be a bit more intolerant and benefit from the extra sunlight. You still cut everything in the understory.

maple man · October 24, 2016, 08:55:55 PM

I am thinking that the age of the suppressed trees has a lot to do with how they respond to release. Also some species respond to release at older ages. Do you know how old the aspens you took out were? Also wondering if the remaining trees are putting out epicormic branches? You have got me worried as I have just had a hard cut done although most of the remaining trees were codominant oaks, ashes and red maples with the more suppressed leave trees being hard maple.

A little info for the fellow asking about birds eye maple. The rule of thumb on birds eye is "dimples not pimples" if the tree has small bumps on it that is possibly some other issue.

Clark · October 24, 2016, 11:54:19 PM

Jeff - I think you are dealing with a situation that is very different than the original post. I have no doubt your trees will do quite good. The crown of the tree has come over the top of the now cut alder and they are acclimated to the full sun. I think they'll grow well there.

In the original post beemers was describing a situation in which suppressed trees were given an amount of release that they couldn't handle. These released trees were also unlikely to ever grow into large trees because they were so suppressed. Maple man, you are likely fine although you could have lots of epicormics on the oak and ash. A super heavy release is typically not good for timber quality.

Clark

Al_Smith · October 25, 2016, 06:11:31 AM

Red and silver maple are not native in these parts .Those you see are either transplants or propagated from seed blow down from the transplants .

Now they will get large in maybe 60 years but they don't have much value other than shade trees .

Sugar maple,often called rock in Canada is another story .They survive as under story trees under large oaks but they grow tall and spindly because if they don't get sunlight they die .Problem there is if you drop the big trees they aren't protected from the wind which can give them a hard time if a big blow comes roaring through .

Now believe it or not I can go though my little patch of three acres plus another adjoining three about every 4 or so years and get the 4-5 cords of wood I normally burn from just blow downs of little trees that either died from no sun or a big wind .I don't even need to split much.6-8 inch diameter .Just grab a little saw and have at it .Takes forever on itsy little trees but what the hey,it's free .

BEEMERS · October 26, 2016, 07:28:21 PM

These Aspen are 115 or so years old..this stand was cut about 130 years ago and then burnt heavily after maybe several times..so after the last fire...I counted rings on them before and on Ash and ended up 115-116.
These are not trees you can thin...well you can but...they are so thick in the tops you almost have to take one to make a hole for the next and so on..you cant just pick every third tree...never have a place to fall..
Also they are at or beyond their peak...they are thinning themselves and I don't think I have a twenty year window and they will mostly be on the ground.
Also they are 120-130 feet tall and are all stem..i even go 8 logs 10'4 each out of one..they are just a very long stem and a little poof of branches at the top ..all swaying in the wind as one and always have all their lives..
I believe if you take some the wind will take the rest.....
I have some tall oaks but in these thick stands the aspen IS the overstory with some oaks at or below ans these maples at the @30 foot on down level..
no timber in the maple at all no pulp really but very nice healthy looking trees...and I work so hard to leave them nice and next year...not so much...
I don't see any other option.clearcutting the maple to not hinder the aspen regen is off the table as it would be by hand and take a tremendous cost and effort and a huge mess as they would just lay there with the Aspen tops.
They are very nice healthy trees..well before the are allowed the sun..Anyone thing the stronger trees will adjust?My hopes are that they will and will leave my children a nice maple forest..mixed with oak.
they are already twenty -thirty years along,hopefully they take off...either way, I guess my site can be the guinea pig...

maple man · October 29, 2016, 07:53:30 AM

Beemers,
Good luck to you . I hope some of your maples recover in time. Conditions and results are surely different in different places but here in Maine red maple while fairly valuable are much less robust trees than hard maples and would be unlikely to respond to release after age 50 years.

Your aspens sound fantastic! Are these big toothed? We have no deciduous trees of any kind that reach such heights. What kind of equipment and procedures did you use to cut them?