Thinning pole pines

[Roxie]

I can't wait till he comes back and lets us know how he did....

[SwampDonkey]

I'm in agreement with Ron and our red pine.

[semologger]

Have you talked to MDC about giving ya a hand? Are you talking to the pole mill in licking. They are putting in a shaving mill also. Also wherhauser might be interested in alot of your trees in winona or birch tree cant remember which town. How many acres you have planted?

[Bro. Noble]

Well,  I made a gage and measured the trees.  We sampled several different sites and the ba varried from 170 to 260 with 215 being the averadge.  I guess we had better see if we can sell some poles ;D  The baf of my thumb is a hair less than 20 :D :D :D

Semologger,  I've learned lots from farm foresters in the past,  but the present one doesn't seem to be quite so anxious to help. :(  The conservation dept has a video library in Jeff City that was invaluable to us when we started out.  Their films on logging and milling and forest management really helped us.  The only cost was the return postage.

The buying station that weyrhauser had at Birch Tree shut down some time ago and I understand that they sold their chip and saw operation in Russelville Ark. where the pine was going.  There is a guy out of Mtn. Home that was buying pine (pulp I think) in Willow Springs,  but I don't know if he is still buying or not.  The pole operation at Licking is the only one in the area that I am aware of.  There are still a few post operations.  We sell to Missippi Valley out of Iowa.  They have different yards in the area.  Our posts have gone to Success,  Mo.  for the most part, but this last year they went to Salem.

Did the guys in Licking get in the cabin log business?  The last they came here,  they had purchased a huge peeler for cabin logs and were looking at a Baker mill that could saw them on one or two sides.  I guess I'll call them tomorrow,  Maybe we can sell them some big stuff too.

[semologger]

The mill in licking is called current river pole. I think anyways. They are buying telephone pole size stuff and peel them.  i dont think for log cabins just telephone poles. But i could be wrong. 

There is also a post mill in houston mo. they are  also cca treating plant.

The guy in mountain home is Scott Tucker. He also has a buying yard in Imboden Arkansas. He is not buying any pine pulp anymore. He still buys big pine i believe.
There is a shaving mill in california mo that buys pine also. They was coming all the down to my area and buying pine slabs.
I would like to see your pine stand I would like to compare it to all the goverment stands i have cut.
Thats about all i know about in your area.

[SwampDonkey]

Wow, that's a lot of wood chum. My thumb BAF is about the same as yours.

0.95" thumb, 22" arm, with thumb at 90°

k = 0.95"/22"
K= 0.04318

BAF = 10890 x 0.04318²
BAF = 20.3 ft²/ac

[Ron Scott]

Yes, a thinning is in order. 

[Bro. Noble]

Well,  the forester from the pole place came out this morning.  He said that they definately needed thinning,  but he thought that they should only be thinned to 90 or 100 ba.  His reasoning was that they were tall enough that there would be too much chance of wind and ice damage.  He says that he can mark enough poles to bring the ba down to that and then we can take out a bunch more poles in 6 or 8 years after the remaining trees have made some more growth and had stronger root systems.  He also said that our natural pines need thinning bad in places and that it looked like about 20% of them would make big poles,  although this wouldn't bring the ba down as much as it should be.  He suggested we wait till the market is better before taking sawlogs out,  however.

Tom and I went back to work and the forester started marking poles.  After lunch,  he came to tell us the bad news.  He'd come across a patch of three or four acres of planted pine that had been leveled thanks to Ike  and it looked like there might be another patch on the next ridge. >:(  Lucky he found them and we have a market for them.  He said there were probably 6 or 8 loads of poles in the blown down  patch he looked at :(

Looks lide son Tom and I will be in the pole cutting business  just as soon as the deer hunters are out of the woods.

[semologger]

yep sound you will be having fun. Its hard this time of year in the pine tickets it always stays nice and wet. Seems like those needles hold water. I peeled me around 250 pine post this afternoon.

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like your forester gave good advice on post BA. We had no idea the basal area was so high before your cruise.  ;)

[Ron Scott]

Yes, the pole company forester gave good advice. Though I'm much more familiar with red pine management, thinning below 90 sq. ft. will open a stand up the heavy wind throw. Also thin lighter along the stand edges and exposures to prevailing heavy winds. Also more mosture is retained in the stand if not thinned too heavy aslong the edges.

I'm just speaking from USFS research experience in thinning red pine to different basal areas of 120 to 60. The 90 BA range produced the best management results.

[WDH]

I agree with SD and Ron.  Your starting basal area is much too high (dense) to thin to one of the lower basal areas like 75 sq-ft. 

I still think that at this stand's age, the trees have done their thing, and future growth will be too slow, even after thinning.  Once we get old, we don't grow as much .  Might be time to think about a reforestation plan after you take out the poles and then the sawlogs when the market gets a little better.  After you take the poles, you could harvest the balance of the stand in a few years when things are (hopefully) better.

[Bro. Noble]

The smaller stuff that was recently taken out was still growing slowly and you could see when the thinning occured 12 or 15 years ago.  The pole co. foresterthinks they are still making good growth.  It will be interesting to look at the growth rings on the larger ones after they are cut.

We are looking for someone to load and haul now and plan to start cutting as soon as deer season is over.  The pole man thinks we can get them loaded and hauled (about 60 miles)  for 10 or 12 dollars per ton.  Does this sound about right?

[Bro. Noble]

Well, here's an update on the utility pole business.

We've been cutting a couple of loads a week and skidding them to a landing where a fellow with a huge timberjack loader and a couple of west coast trailers loads and hauls them.  The area with the storm damage is a nightmare to work in,  but we are about through it and hope we don't run into any more.  The natural pine is turning out to be a real bonus with a lot of 50+ foot poles.  Those in the plantation are running about an equal amount of 35,40, and 45 footers.  We are getting somewhere around a load per acre.  We have post cutters lined up to follow us cleaning up what tops will make posts as well as the posts downed by the storm.  We are sawing the larger downed stuff that won't make poles into 16' 6X6 and 6X8 poles for the post company.  We have a few orders for pine lumber that we are producing sawing the 16 foot poles. We are sawing these on rainy days.

All in all, it is working out better than we dared hope.

Got a letter from our grade lumber buyer yesterday informing us that they are back to buying.  Red and White Oak FAS is $550 >:(  and then the prices drop fast :  Sure glad we have another source of making a living.

[SwampDonkey]

Wow Noble, you've got quite an enterprise going. Sounds like your busy anyway, wish the price increases some .....soon. Softwood logs sure aren't a very good price, little better than half they were 4 years ago. I don't have any to sell, but glad my woods are still young. ;D  Veener hard maple and birch are down $1000/mbf, not a recent drop, but the best is $1700/mbf here. Those are always hard to come by, still lesser veneer grades hover around $900. Never enough of those even in these parts with all the high grading that carries on.  :

[SwampDonkey]

The guy in mountain home is Scott Tucker. He also has a buying yard in Imboden Arkansas. He is not buying any pine pulp anymore. He still buys big pine i believe.

Semo,

We have a Tucker Mountain Log Homes here in Williamstown, I wonder if there is a connection? I don't know of the name Tucker in these parts. So a possibility? Some of these log home outfits are global operations.

[semologger]

I dont think so. He just has a couple of buying yards i dont think he is that big of business.

Sounds like you have been having fun Bro Noble. I would hate to even think about cutting a pine thicket without my hydroax.