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The Ultimate Logging Skid Steer/CTL

Started by bamadude, February 21, 2013, 08:24:08 PM

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bamadude

Hello! I am an Industrial Design student working on a project that is aimed to create a skid steer loader/compact track loader specifically designed for the forestry and logging industry. I am looking for your answers to the following questions as well as suggestions of your own. Your feedback can lead to the manufacturing of a brand new skid steer designed just for your line of work!

Just concerning logging tasks, what would be the best for a skid steer/CTL?

- Rated Operating Capacity?
- Tracks vs. Wheels?
- Most Essential Attachments?
- Enclosed or open cab?
- Manual quick attachment/Hydraulic quick attachment/Electric quick attachment?
- Essential features? (float, radial/vertical lift, parallel lift, smooth ride system, high flow)
- What could be improved on the machine to save you time when working?
- What size trailer would it need to fit on?
- Any other thoughts or suggestions you have, let's hear it!

fishpharmer

Welcome to FF Bamadude!  Sounds like an interesting project.  Bama as in The Tide?  Didn't they do well this past season in Rugby or soccer or maybe it was another sport? :)
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Bandmill Bandit

Loaded Ghel RT 210 with hi flow

I have tried a few other that are supposed to be comparable. NOT!!!

One very tough and well built unit.

If you can beat the NEW Gehl line up Bamadude you will have a leader.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

Ok. My opinions here. . . .

Definitely need tracks. And the tracks and bogeys need to be stronger than are currently available, more resistent to stumps, logs, and rocks hitting them from all directions. The tread needs to be a little more aggressive, too. The tracks should be beveled up on both ends, like the tracks found on a tank, to allow a gentle rise up onto an obstacle. Some current models, especially Gehl and Takheuchi, have a near vertical rear angle on the track, which can back into an obstacle and come to a complete stop. Not good.

Higher ground clearance is a must. A minimum of ten inches at all points under the main frame.

Here's the biggy, and I'm making public one of my personal design secrets I've never shared before. Skidsteers and track loaders have needed this feature from day one, and I don't think anyone has come up with it yet. The game-changing automatic ballast shifter (ABS). Inside the bottom of the main frame, you need to make a solid 1,000 lb weight as wide as the main frame's inside. It will be on rollers and activated by roller chain and sprockets, powered by the machine's hydraulic system. A set of sensors in the front idlers and rear idlers of the tracks sends a signal to the ABS telling which end of the machine is light and which end is heavy. The roller chain will then move the ballast weight to the light end of the machine, making it more stable. A computer component similar to the one used to keep Sedgway scooters upright might be necessary.

The operator's compartment needs to be more heavily protected than a current machine. It should be able to take a much heavier impact than is currently approved. Think a large oak tree falling on it.

I would suggest looking into the possibility of using some carbon fiber components in the roll cage and boom to cut down on top-heavy weight and to improve stability with a lifted load.

Implement hydraulics need to be easily detachable and attachable remotely from within the cab. The same goes for implement mounting. Small hydraulic cylinders should lock and unlock the bucket / implement, and some sort of cam lock system should be able to automatically lock the hydraulic couplings from the operator's seat.

The operator's seat needs to be sturdier, as many loggers weigh more than the upper limits for current seats' design parameters!   :-[

High, high, high capacity hydraulics for hydro motor applications, such as feller saws.

Once and for all, the machines need, at least as a northern option, to be capable of starting and operating effectively for days on end at Canadian winter temperatures. Engines, hydraulics, electronics, etc. need to be up to the challenge. Unlike the John Deere 250's we struggled with a decade ago during a 6-week cold snap in Maine, where it didn't get above 0 Ferenheit the entire time, IIRC.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

beenthere

QuoteHere's the biggy, and I'm making public one of my personal design secrets I've never shared before. Skidsteers and track loaders have needed this feature from day one, and I don't think anyone has come up with it yet. The game-changing automatic ballast shifter (ABS). Inside the bottom of the main frame, you need to make a solid 1,000 lb weight as wide as the main frame's inside. It will be on rollers and activated by roller chain and sprockets, powered by the machine's hydraulic system. A set of sensors in the front idlers and rear idlers of the tracks sends a signal to the ABS telling which end of the machine is light and which end is heavy. The roller chain will then move the ballast weight to the light end of the machine, making it more stable. A computer component similar to the one used to keep Sedgway scooters upright might be necessary.

Interesting. I had the same or similar idea proposed for ag tractors back in the day when weight needed to be on the front for plowing, on the rear for FEL work, and also on the left side or right side depending on the slope one was working on.
But decided to go with oil reservoirs in or near the four corners that the hyd. oil would be pumped to the particular side or end or combination thereof to be the ballast to balance whatever the needs were at the time.

So, I like your idea.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

bamadude

Thanks for the feedback, that is excellent data!

So if an ABS feature was implemented, how much do you think it would be worth/how much would you be willing to pay for a machine that has the ABS feature?

okmulch

Rubber tracks like the Cat 287 series and Terex/asv models. Bobcat type tracks pop off all the time on stumps.

Belly pans need to be as big as possible to remove debris from front to back.  Ease of cleaning debris is a must.
Bigger radiators then what engine requires for cooling water and hydraulics. Mine overheat all the time in the summer months no matter how clean.
Needs reversible fans.

As Okra said high clearance.

I can see a high demand for one out here cutting cedars in Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas and Nebraska. When cutting the cedars the needles fall down on top all the time, we are constantly cleaning debris.Terex has a forestry package available on their skid steers. As of right now that would be the next one I would purchase if needed to.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Okrafarmer

Quote from: bamadude on February 21, 2013, 09:22:16 PM
So if an ABS feature was implemented, how much do you think it would be worth/how much would you be willing to pay for a machine that has the ABS feature?

Well, for full disclosure, I personally never buy anything new that costs more than $1,000. But if a machine already costs upward of $50,000, another $1,000-2,000 for the ABS system would make for a much smoother, more stable, less stressful, safer, more productive operating experience, and so I would think it would be worth at least $2,000 and maybe a little more.

Beenthere, when I first had the idea, I had it in reference to tractors and combines operating on hillsides. I had the idea of a weight box mounted underneath that could be swung in the uphill direction, either by operator's direction, or even by a simple mechanical sensor-- a weighted pendulum that hung down and "felt" gravity, and opened or shut a valve or operated an electrical switch by moving from side to side or fore and aft, according to the terrain.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Bandmill Bandit

okra while your idea is a good one practical application of it in a skid steer type machine would put the unit in a price range that would be un reachable besides changing the center of gravity to a much higher point there by mitigating any advantage such a system would provide.

The best application of this idea is a GOOD operator. If you cant keep ALL 4 wheel OR the full length of the tracks on the ground at all times you are NOT an operator.

After owning and wearing out 4 units and operating 7 other different units for various owners for total seat hours well over 20000  ican tell you that you would have to spend many millions to develop a mechanical system that could over ride a lousy operator.

The machine would be useless because you would need weight factors equal to or greater than the operating tip load that is generally about half the weight of the machine it self. And that is assuming you dont change the center of gravity from its current level.

Just saying.

A combine is a differnt kettle of fish
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

With all due respect, Bandmill Bandit, I think I will wait to see what the engineers in charge of this project say about it. And it would actually lower the center of gravity if anything, not raise it.

Today's skidders, tractors, bulldozers, semis, etc. are far easier to operate than their counterparts of 40 years ago. While you can't fix "stupid" in an operator, you can sure level the odds a bit.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

bushhog920

so what part of al. you in? I use a t200 in my woods here in south montgomery. a grapple that rotates would be nice that way i could grab a log on the end and drag it to where i can get to it on the side.

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 21, 2013, 11:44:54 PM
With all due respect, Bandmill Bandit, I think I will wait to see what the engineers in charge of this project say about it. And it would actually lower the center of gravity if anything, not raise it.

Today's skidders, tractors, bulldozers, semis, etc. are far easier to operate than their counterparts of 40 years ago. While you can't fix "stupid" in an operator, you can sure level the odds a bit.

You could just about fit complete  skid steer into the engine compartment on all the equipment you just mentioned. There in lies the most significant challenge. The center of gravity is usually at or slightly below axel center and that is rarely more than 20 inches off the ground (usually less) including 8 inchs +/- ground clearance. And as a rule not enough clearance anywhere else to get a wrench in to do repairs with out some gymnastics involved.   

So by taking all the critical components required and lifting them the 6 to 8 inchs to get some where north of a 1000 lb weight system and manipulation systems (and it's weight) that move it around in place at the bottom of the machine you'd be lowering the center of gravity? Hmm seems to me that raising 2000 lbs plus of necessary components to add 2000 lbs plus of unnecessary bulk is a waste of space and still raises the center of gravity. You would be hard pressed to find 1 cubic inch of wasted space in most skid steers most are very well built. The way they are balanced is the most critical in how a efective even a good operator can be on a unit.

Gehl has done a redesign from the ground up in their 2 current CTL models and they have have done a darn good job of it. I have not been on the new Gehl wheeled units but the do look to be much improved over other new models from the other manufacturers. Most of the others have tried or will be trying but while they are much improved in some area they have gone backwards in other areas.

I understand what is going on here and I understand why.

There is a new leader coming through the pack and he is a force with a name that has NEVER been a real consideration before now. Now he is a force to be reckoned with and he has very strong advantages. A close competitor is Case (for the first time since the 1800 series) but they are having way to many computer/control and hydraulic issues at this point. I hope they get it fixed they have a well built platform and a good drive train. Just bit off a too much in the fly by wire department and (I quote) "put it out in the market before it was fully tested because we had to".

the oil idea is a good one but not sure how effective it could be in an already maximized space and what about the environmental side of the extra oil on board? I will add some input for the engineering project later this week end but I need to get to work now.

FYI
The list that Bamadude posted is pretty much identical to the list that was handed to the Gehl design team 5 years ago. The results are out standing.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

sjfarkas

I would agree with most all of the recomendations for improvements.  Whatever the hydraulics produce on machine the attachments need to match.  I run a bobcat and there is a lot of room under the operators seat.  A pressurized cab would be great.

Sasha
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

bamadude

Bandmill Bandit: You mentioned the Gehl RT 210, which has a 2,100 lb ROC. Is a 2,100 lb ROC the optimal weight for general forestry use or is it the most weight you'll ever need on the job? 

bushhog920: I live in Florence but I'm going to school in GA. You said a T200? How do you like the weight of it? Is it ever too much or do you ever feel like you need a heavier machine to lift more stuff?

Everyone: What machines do you use and what do you find to be the best weight for loggin/why?

bushhog920

the t200 dose get very tippy with a big log and the tracks loose traction because you are riding on the front rollers only. it dose help when you can clamp the log and roll the grapple all the way down and back. don't need heat a/c in the cab down here but i don't have any protection on the front, no fun when a branch joins you in the cab.

amberwood

I use an RC85 for log recovery, tree cleanup. etc. Usually fitted with a 2m wide log grab/stick rake.

-It could use steel tracks. or the CAT CTL style steel embedded rubber type.
-The long wheelbase is great for lifting stability, but is a pain in confined spaces
-I dont have the forestry cab, but have fabricated rear radiator guards. The factory belly plates are OK for removal and cleanout.
-Closed cab with ac/heat is a must, pressurised sealed cab would be better. Still get heaps of dust in the cab.
-rear remotes for operate/towing a wheeled grapple arch? depends on the work type.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

Bandmill Bandit

Hey Bama dude every machine has it limits. the RT210 That tried out for a week was primarily working around the mill and I really liked the way it handles the over size logs that I generally cut.

Rarely over 20 feet and rarely less than 20 inch diameter small end. Mostly SPF with some birch and Aspen cedar and fir. The biggest ones get to about 38 on big end. Average around 30.

I did assit with a selective logging operation on acreage of about 6 acres with the unit. Skidded all the logs out full length. smallest was 12 inch butt biggest was just a bit over 20 average was about 15 to 16.

ROC at 2100 is very conservative IMHO on the RT210. Would be nice at about 4000ROC but I think that would be too big for my needs. Different story in the bush though.

I would peg the RT210 closer to 2800 in actual operation the way I used it. An RT 210 is on the schedule for the second acquisition this year after the edger is in place and operating.

It worked well and was plenty of machine for the task, is very versatile and well balanced and the tracks that it comes with seem to be pretty tough. we took out about 4 32 ton loads (green weight)

IF you were in big wood you would need biggar iron. Dont think getting biggar in a skid steer configuration would be beneficial but then my logging experience is minimal too.

Gehl has a system that is sorta of "ABS" in its electronic control system. For me it is more annoying then any thing so I shut it off. In real nasty terrain or a very inexperienced operator it may be of some benefit.

For a good, safe operator I think it be a PIA. For me it would not be a feature I would be looking for.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

Another form ABS that wouldn't involve much extra weight and very little extra space would be to actually have the entire chassis (with loader boom attached) slide fore and aft on the track frames. This would probably require moving the hydrostatic drive motors out to the track frames instead of mounted inboard. Who knows, that in itself might might make it easier to improve under-frame clearance and stability. There would have to be protected hydraulic drive hoses going from the chassis to the track frames to drive the motors, and depending on drive motor dimensions, that might require wider tracks and/or some intense shielding to protect them out there. It also might make it easier to replace drive motors.

The entire chassis could move backward and forward on the track frames, to help put the weight of the machine where it was needed most. Even 12 inches of travel would make a difference.

So how do I know this? Well, I'll tell you how I know this. We use a Bobcat 751 wheel skidsteer. I don't know the exact weight right off hand, but it seems to be somewhere around 3 tons. With pallet forks, I can pick up a log weighing right around one ton. I can actually get a log on there that is heavy enough to make the rear end come up. Sometimes, when extracting logs from job sites, we have done the (patently unsafe) approach of using human ballast. I would get the log on there (with forks lowered), and one of the guys would jump up on the back of the Bobcat behind the cab. 150-200 lbs. of extra ballast was all it took to get the back wheels back on the ground, then we would creep to the truck, get the log up over the truck, and the guy would jump off.

Now, I have seen some skidsteers, especially New Hollands, with extra suitcase weights attached to the rear end. The only problem is, if you get too much weight back there, then you run into trouble when you are running with an empty loader, especially when maneuvering without an implement attached. To maximize the machine's potential, you need the ability to shift ballast fore and aft.

As somebody mentioned, there needs to be some positive protection (more than standard glass or plexiglass) in front to protect against sticks coming in with the operator.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

okmulch

If it is going to be forestry, I would not even consider a wheeled loader. I have no problem with tipping running my cat 287c, or the amount I need to pick up. A good operator that knows his machine makes up for all the cost of ballast. Track loaders are so much more stable then wheeled loaders. I have a Cat268 wheeled loader with McClarren tires with steel grouser tracks I use to cut cedar down, the only reason I have it, was at the time it was the only machine with High flow. I can still shear 50 to 60 foot tall cedars with 24 inch bases and turn and lay it where I want.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: okmulch on February 23, 2013, 09:47:33 AM
If it is going to be forestry, I would not even consider a wheeled loader. I have no problem with tipping running my cat 287c, or the amount I need to pick up. A good operator that knows his machine makes up for all the cost of ballast. Track loaders are so much more stable then wheeled loaders. I have a Cat268 wheeled loader with McClarren tires with steel grouser tracks I use to cut cedar down, the only reason I have it, was at the time it was the only machine with High flow. I can still shear 50 to 60 foot tall cedars with 24 inch bases and turn and lay it where I want.


Thank you ok!

Operator is 98% of every machines effectiveness.

Okra the new Ghel has out board drive motors buried in the planetaries.

Get on one. If you are an operator you will only need about 10 minutes to see what I mean.

I ran 287 C for about 1200 hours on very small landings sorting about 5 years ago. Up till the RT210 it was the best one I'd been on. The New Ghel's are the next step up
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

sjfarkas

I think a longer frame would be a benefit.  Also when it comes to ballast a few hundred pounds on the back is a huge difference.  A machine with a rear winch is much more balanced when running a mulching head, but it can't go up steep inclines forward with an empty grapple.  Also the more weight it can pick up the better.  Horse power is huge.  I would like 130 hp.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

Cedarman

Every machine no matter what it is has a maximum capacity it will lift before tipping.  If you put 200# on rear, you now have a new maximum. The problem lies in that there is always a log, or rock, or bundle that is 200# above the capacity that you can pick up.  Increasing the ability to pick up, just changes what is just over the limit.  Then what do you do.
I have run farm machinery, loaders etc since I was 7 years old.  In my younger years I got things stuck.  Sometimes just seeing what a machine will do.  As I have aged, I get stuck less and less.  In other words, live within the ability of the machine to do its work.  It is cheaper to become a good operator than to buy expensive equipment that compensates for operator error.  Seat belts and cab protection is a cheap expense that compensates for operator error.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Bandmill Bandit

Bang on Cedarman

It's what is completed and stacked at the end of the day and even more important what's been moved off of the stack and out the drive way at the end of the week.

If you work with in the limits of your iron you will be working to produce finished product. If your jamin it, the equipment  will look the part and the customers will see it.  You WILL lose sales as a result and you will be fixing your own screw ups when the customers show up to pick up their order.
Being a good operator takes some time to learn and applies to a lot more than sitting on the seat of a piece of equipment. Some never learn it.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Cedarman

Just my observation.  Kids who start young on equipment, bicycles, dirt bikes, 4-wheelers, especially farm tractors, loaders etc seem to grasp operating quicker and operate with more finesse than people that start in their 20's.  Those that start late get good, and can operate very well, but it takes longer.  A very good operator has a hard time telling someone how they do what they do.
If a free throw shooter thinks about hitting a free throw, they throw clunkers.  If they step up and let their muscles do their thing, then swish.  Same thing with operating equipment.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

cutter88

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on February 21, 2013, 11:15:23 PM
okra while your idea is a good one practical application of it in a skid steer type machine would put the unit in a price range that would be un reachable besides changing the center of gravity to a much higher point there by mitigating any advantage such a system would provide.

The best application of this idea is a GOOD operator. If you cant keep ALL 4 wheel OR the full length of the tracks on the ground at all times you are NOT an operator.

After owning and wearing out 4 units and operating 7 other different units for various owners for total seat hours well over 20000  ican tell you that you would have to spend many millions to develop a mechanical system that could over ride a lousy operator.

The machine would be useless because you would need weight factors equal to or greater than the operating tip load that is generally about half the weight of the machine it self. And that is assuming you dont change the center of gravity from its current level.

Just saying.

A combine is a differnt kettle of fish

very well said... i agreee
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

Okrafarmer

 ???
I'm not sure what everybody's in a wad about. I agree that the operator is the key ingredient for effective machinery utilization. A good operator is very valuable. A poor "driver" is a liability. I don't think anyone was trying to say otherwise.

A good operator can operate a piece of crap machinery and make it work. I've done that since I was 8 years old. A good operator can be even more productive on a machine that does more, does it better, is easier to operate, etc.

All I am trying to do with my moveable ballast system idea, is to make a good machine even better. I'm talking about taking a machine of a certain weight, size, footprint, and maneuverability and making it more effective without making larger or heavier. That is why I said to look into carbon fiber in the boom and cab to save weight up high in the air. My second idea, of moving the entire frame forward and backward on the track frames, would do even better at saving weight and getting more done for a similar weight.

The lighter a machine is, the easier it is to transport, the less damage it does to a forest environment, the less it costs to buy and operate, etc. The smaller (in terms of outside dimensions) a machine is, the more tight spaces it can wiggle into and out of. The shorter the tracks are, the less it tears things up when it turns and the less wear and tear on the tracks-- BUT the less stable it is. So, if we want more maneuverability, we shorten the tracks. If we want more stability, we lengthen the tracks. If we want more traction, we lengthen the tracks. But the longer they are, the less maneuverable. So shifting the weight backward and forward on the tracks is a way to get more load capacity in a smaller, cheaper, more maneuverable package. A chance to do the same amount of work as a larger, more expensive machine that burns more fuel and does more collateral damage to the forest environment.  :)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

I agree that provision for a rear and.or front winch would be very welcome. A drawbar, and rear hydraulic outlets would also be very good. But as someone pointed out, if you use a regular old CTL for pulling things, you are very light on the front unless you pick up a counterweight.

It should be pretty obvious that the exhaust needs to be well protected. Many skidsteers and CTL's have this feature already. Also, the boom, cab, etc. need to be very streamlined and strong to scoot under limbs, especially while backing up. Some current loaders are fairly good about this already. Lights need to be very well protected, as on any forestry equipment.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

barbender

I don't think any of the current rubber track undercarriages are tough enough for true logging work (the tracks themselves).
Too many irons in the fire

Okrafarmer

Quote from: barbender on February 23, 2013, 11:45:19 PM
I don't think any of the current rubber track undercarriages are tough enough for true logging work (the tracks themselves).

Probably so. And there is always room for improvement, anyway! Logging is about the worst terrain for one of these to work in, except for demolition, metal recycling, or fire fighting.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

amberwood

just looking at the CAT 299D steel undercarriage. uses D3 components on 12" plates. 106hp. all up machine weight with decent sized log grapple or 4:1 bucket close to 6500kg.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

Okrafarmer

That much power really isn't enough for something that heavy, especially hydrostatic driven and running high-capacity hydraulic equipment.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

okmulch

Quote from: barbender on February 23, 2013, 11:45:19 PM
I don't think any of the current rubber track undercarriages are tough enough for true logging work (the tracks themselves).
The cat 287c I run every day over stumps carrying trees in and out of woods holds up well. I had to change the first set of tracks and drive sprocket bushings with a little over 2000 hours on them. So far have not had to change any wheels or bogeys.
The Cat dealer says I put these loaders in some of the harshest environments they have seen skid steers used in. I have told the dealer if they need testing done I would be glad to do it. :)

What if your ballast malfunctions at the worst time possible? I still think the expense of safety systems and engineering do not out way the benefits of knowing your machine and just making sure you get the machine that works for what applications you will be doing.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Bandmill Bandit

Okra the minute you start adding systems that move things around that need to be solid you are adding unnecessary weight and mechanical systems that need to maintained and FIXED besides destabilizing the unit.

on a combine your idea could work well but you have a quarter section to turn em around not 64 square feet and most of the weight is high any way. Very good idea here.

ABS is not needed on a skid steer type machine.

Amber wood take a look at the RT210 be or you buy. While the 299C is a good unit I think the RT 210 trumps it but I have not had the opportunity to run them side by side. I do know that Gehl undercarriage has a lot more substance to it. Bigger sprockets, wider rollers bigger planetaries. track looks to be tougher but would have to wear em out side by  side. I like the operator platform control lay out and seat much better and visibility is the best of any of the latest models I have been on in the last year. That includes Case, Cat289C, John Deere, Bobcat, Takeuchi and Gehl.

I looked at specs on both just now and to be fair the RT210 compares to the 279/289 in the Cat line up. 

Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

sjfarkas

One more thing.  we need a fire system on the machine.  I think a foam system for the engine.  Then a place to mount a shovel where it wont get ripped off.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

barbender

Okmulch, 2000 hours is very good sevice life, especially in that enviroment. That machine uses the ASV/Terex undercarriage, correct? On our asphalt paving prep crew, we were usually getting 1000 hours, whether the ASV u/c on our Cat 287 or the Case CT450. My understanding is that a lot of the mulching/clearing crews locally were only getting 500 hours on an ASV u/c, one big outfit quit running them and were trying out other brands. As a side note, our Cat was the original prototype 287, ASV in Grand Rapids put it together and we ended up with it in a trade for parking lot paving ;D It wasn't a 287A, or 287B, just 287 :D Overall, a good machine other than the obvious bugs of it being a prototype. One thing with the outboard drive motors on the asv u/c is the hydraulic hoses tend to get ripped off by sticks.
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

Okra, I think your concept is interesting. I don't know how you would implement it, especially in the extremeley tight confines of a skid steer bellypan. But we can't innovate if we just leave things the same, can we. For something like that to work, it would have to be dead simple and reliable. What if you get dirt in your bellypan and jam up the works? I can't stress simplicity enough- Ponsse processors use a gyroscope controlled hydraulic cab leveling system, it often ends up bypassed out of frustration. Guys just want to cut wood, not put expensive parts on a system that often doesn't really accomplish much.
Too many irons in the fire

Okrafarmer

Barbender, it might be better to have the system operator-controlled rather than computer-controlled. I think a simple slide system, sliding the upper portion backward and forward on the lower portion, would be best. It would add some weight compared to a unit not so equipped, but it would be mostly steel/cast iron, and added down low where weight is good. I can picture a rectangular lower frame (solid, with little or no oscilation) fitted with some solid rails that hold the upper portion securely from going any direction other than fore and aft. It can run on whatever type of bearings or slides would work best for the application, and be controlled by a hydraulic cylinder.

By the way, I have seen where some of the piggy-back forklifts carried on flatbed trucks already have a system kind of sort of like I'm talking about. It seems to work for them. I think they move their fork system farther away or closer to the wheeled power unit.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Cedarman

Let's say it is a $5000 add on.  How long would it take to pay that back in increased productivity?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offthebeatenpath

Great thoughts,

I have run an ASV in the woods for a number of seasons and have gotten almost 2000 hours out of the tracks.   That said, they could still be a bit more beefy.  In icy conditions, carbide tipped studs help to keep the machine from sliding sideways.  I don't know if you can ever keep these machines from sliding on slippery cross slopes- it seems to me to be the most limiting factor.  I love the track design developed by ASV and incorporated by Cat.  It just doesn't get stuck.

I have also ripped numerous external hydraulic hoses off- encasing them is paramaount for forestry operations.

I run my machine with a rotating grapple in front in electric winch in back.  I would like to have a hydraulic winch on both the front and back.  A strong arch design is key to an effective rear winch.  The photo below shows my homemade version which could be greatly improved upon, especially by adding a roller fairlead and bigger cable.



 

I think counterweights can work well and having an easy way to manually add/remove them could be the most cost effective way to keep the machine balanced when lifting from the front or skidding from the rear.

Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

okmulch

To me making the machine run longer with less down time is what needs to be improved upon. Bigger radiators to keep machine cool. When it is over 90 degrees and I am running our turbo tree saw these loaders over heat quickly which causes me down time.
The hydraulic hose covers that come out of the body and go to the tracks definitely need protection!

I do not know about most of you, but I do most if not all of the maintenance and repairs on my machines. The spaces to work with are all ready tight and small in the belly and you usually have to take several other things off, just to fix what is broke, so the more stuff that you put in the bottoms of these machines the more difficult it will be to work on. To me it would not be worth it, because downtown equals not making money time.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Cedarman on February 25, 2013, 07:44:49 AM
Let's say it is a $5000 add on.  How long would it take to pay that back in increased productivity?

If using the machine to near full capacity daily, in hilly terrain especially, probably 3-6 months.

Back when I was a kid, I somehow ended up with some college-level "Agricultural Engineering" magazines. One of them, written in the 1980's, had this article about auxiliary four-wheel-drive axles on farm tractors. (tractors that had otherwise been designed as two-wheel-drive, but had four-wheel-drive as an option). The title of the article was entitled "Front Wheel Assist-- Does it Pay Off?" I thought that was interesting. The bean-counting scientists in the article had a very skeptical view of FWA. They did this scientific study where they compared the tractor's fuel efficiency in the field with or without FWA while plowing. The tractors got more done per hour and per gallon of fuel with FWA, but the engineers poo-pooed the whole concept because they said it would take years for a farmer to earn back the additional cost of the powered front axle.

At which point, even as a naive young teenager, I said to myself, "self, those silly engineers have never been to Maine, have they?" The point isn't about how more efficient you can be over time, it is about how many times are you able to "actually do something useful" instead of "trying and failing"? Four wheel drive is not valuable for small increases in efficiency over time. It is extremely valuable for making the difference between "can do" and "can't do" on a daily basis. Stuck tractors, trucks, etc. are a mini crisis that has to be solved. While you are extracting stuck equipment, you are 100% losing time. Also, when dealing with mud, hillside, deep snow, etc, the "can do" factor is critical. If your 2X4 tractor would be incapable, but your 4X4 can do it, it is extremely valuable. The same would be true for a balance system. Any time you can change "can't do" to "can do" you are saving money.

Any time you are in your loader machine (of any type) and you have it teetering on the front wheels or front of its tracks (or back wheels, or back of tracks), you have to go slower and be more careful. But if you are balanced, you can go faster, and get more done, more safely.

If you primarily operate your machines on hard smooth surfaces, such as concrete, you may not need a balance system. Having 90% of your weight on one or the other end of your machine might make little difference for traction and control. But off-road, the issue is much more serious.

A new point I'd like to make is that, if you run with 90% of your weight on the front or the rear quite a bit, there is more stress to those components than there should be. If they are designed to take it, then fine, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Another observation is, I don't think it is good when a machine is capable of lifting enough weight as to lift the rear of the machine off the ground. The Bobcat I run is capable of doing that, barely, and accidents are much more likely to happen when you are teetering. Eliminating the teetering (by more than merely operator judgment) is what I am looking for.

By the way. Another observation about operators. You may rightly say that having a proper operator is the solution for all equipment problems, but I have noticed that proper operators are not always available. Sometimes you just have to get some work done, and a veteran operator is not available. So you have to put someone in there who is less experienced. This happens a lot in the real world. So eliminating as many of the variables for disaster as possible is a good thing.

How many of us would like to go back to the days of steam engines and horse logging and river drives, and try to eke out a living, day after day, year after year, under those conditions? Thankfully, year by year, new safety practices and devices were introduced and now forestry is a lot easier and safer than it was. It's also a lot more efficient.

So let's keep making it safer and more efficient. I think that's what the OP was asking for our input about.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: okmulch on February 25, 2013, 08:56:19 AM
To me making the machine run longer with less down time is what needs to be improved upon. Bigger radiators to keep machine cool. When it is over 90 degrees and I am running our turbo tree saw these loaders over heat quickly which causes me down time.
The hydraulic hose covers that come out of the body and go to the tracks definitely need protection!

I do not know about most of you, but I do most if not all of the maintenance and repairs on my machines. The spaces to work with are all ready tight and small in the belly and you usually have to take several other things off, just to fix what is broke, so the more stuff that you put in the bottoms of these machines the more difficult it will be to work on. To me it would not be worth it, because downtown equals not making money time.

Well said. Small diesel equipment, across the board, is difficult to maintain. I will vouch for that. Ease of maintenance and repair, and reliability of all components, really needs to be paramount in any improved model introduced.

My philosophy for good equipment is that there should only ever be about 5-10 components per machine that ever break. These should be designed to be the weak link, and should be replaceable in the field in less than an hour. An example on a gear drive machine would be a massive shear pin in a drive shaft, designed to take the design stress of the engine and drive train, but to shear if the system is overloaded. It should be easily accessible, so as to replace quickly and easily if failure occurs. Engines and all other major components should be modular and quickly removable and exchangeable.

On track loaders, having the drive motors on the track frame should mean an increase in accessibility and "swapability".  But the drive motor and its supply lines definitely must be well protected from trash and terrain trauma. (TTT).

Too many machines have been built with ease of factory assembly in mind, rather than ease of field maintenance. People need to design machinery from the ground up to be in-field serviceable, under Guadalcanal-like conditions. If they designed machinery like the AK-47 is designed (any dummy can disassemble it and reassemble it, even me) it would be oh so much better. But OH! We can't do that! Some shop mechanics at the dealership might get laid off.  >:(
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: sjfarkas on February 24, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Then a place to mount a shovel where it wont get ripped off.

You would have to sit on it. That about the only place on the machine that the brush cant get at. :D :D
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

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