Codes and building inspections.

[Qweaver]

If you've read any of my previous posts on this subject, you know that I'm against enforced codes and inspections for self builders.  But I firmly believe that professional builders should be held to reasonable standards and an inspection system is about the only way to insure this.  BUT
Cousins Rodney and Cindy had a banquet hall built three years ago by a well respected local builder who is also a friend and I truly believe his intention was to build them a quality building at the best price that he could. 
Yesterday I got a call to bring a ladder to the hall because there was water dripping down in the middle of the dining room.  Long story short, the evaporator drain lines were blocked and both units had tripped the catch pan high water switches...but not before they over flowed and put water thru the ceiling tile.   One look at the drain plumbing had me ready to shoot the HVAC installers.  Absolutely no slope and near the end of the run an 8' unsupported section that slumped down and actually entered the drain system higher than where it started. That drain stays full of water all of the time and over the three years had grown enough slime to block up everything.  What really gets to me is that these units had been recently serviced and the drain lines supposedly cleaned.  Lots of other AC problems as well that we'll get up there and fix next week when the hall is not booked.  Also, one of the flexible ducts was completely off.
After we got the drains cleared and the AC back on for a wedding reception that was scheduled for just an hour away, I had a good look around up there and I was just shocked at the poor workmanship.  The real shock tho' was that the slot had been cut for the ridge vent but it had not been put in!  There is absolutely no way to vent hot air out of the attic.
The halls AC units have never been able to keep the place cool and now I can see why.  Rodney had complained to me on several occasions about the units poor performance and yet I'm sure that they are big enough and should do the job...and they will, when we fix all of the problems that should not have been allowed to happen by a "PROFESSIONAL" builder working to a code.  Nothing wrong with a good set of guidelines to insure quality building but when I see this kind of nonsense, I just throw up my hands.
Quinton

[Dan_Shade]

my opinion is codes are for whoever ends up with it later.  many areas have a "bypass" where you can have a note put in the deed at that county courthouse that says you didn't want to have it inspected.

but I agree, there are times where the inspection means nothing.

[Handy Andy]

  In my experience, there is no code for workmanship.  They require this and that , whatever the latest code they have adopted, but really doesn't matter how badly it is put together.   

[DanG]

They sure inspect for workmanship around here, H-Andy.  They specify the sizes and spacing of the nails and even check to see that they are driven to the correct depth.  Of course, Florida has one of the toughest building codes in the country for residential construction.  That being said, however, there will always be things that are overlooked by inspectors.  They can't look at everything.

There are fallacies in the code itself, too.  When we put in this mobile home, we had to bury the power at least 2 feet down, and the BI got down on his knees and checked it.  The gas line, a quarter inch soft copper tube, wasn't required to be buried at all.  They just left it laying on top of the grass.

Q, there was just no excuse for that!  Not on the part of the HVAC guy, the roofer, and most of all the Gen. Contractor.  After all, he is responsible for everything his subs do.  The BI should have caught it, too.  I've got mixed feelings about not having inspections for owner-built houses, though.  On the one hand, I'd like to be free to do it however I want to, but after two years I'll be allowed to sell my house and build another one.  Two years later, I could sell that one and build another.  That isn't that much different from a contractor building cookie-cutter shacks for the public, when you really look at it.  I've been told by a number of Contractors and subs that the BIs cut the owner-builders a lot of slack around here.  The State code is in place, but it is enforced(or not) by the individual Counties.  If you could build your place any old way you wanted, in exchange for NEVER being able to sell it, would you go for it?

[tim1234]

Have you ever heard the term code minimum?  I would never just build my house to code.  they are the bare minimum.  I always build my house to a standard that is way beyond code.  You can put a 50 cent outlet in your house and it may work for years, but it also has a higher potential of failure.  Putting quality outlets is only a few more dollars and then you don't have to worry about that garbage in the walls.

I know builders have to compete, and when all of them are building to "code" it would probalbly price you out of the market.  But I here over and over that the only thing a builder of contractor has is his or her reputation, then I think you would have to put in things beyond code and then you would get the quality customers who would appreciate your work.

Tim

[scgargoyle]

I had my breaker panel replaced and upgraded by a licensed electrician. The inspector never looked at it- just checked it off. I asked why and he said "I know his work, it's always good." Luckily, the electrician did do a very good job, but that seems like a problem waiting to happen. OTOH, when I installed my own garage door, the inspector was very thorough. He complimented my work, saying it was better than what a contractor would have done. As much of a PITA it is, I think owner-builders should have their work inspected, both to protect future owners, and for insurablility reasons. As it is, I'm a little worried about getting insurance on a house I build myself. They (the insurance companies) are finding a LOT of reasons not to insure these days. We nearly bought a house that had an illegal addition on the back. The roof started to leak, and the reason was found to be that the addition had dropped some 2". It was built on a slab w/ NO footer! Probably started out as a patio, then a quick enclosure job when no one was looking. I'll agree some of the things in Building Codes are pretty dumb, though.

[Handy Andy]

  You guys get me revved up. I had my own building company, small, but I built houses for 25 years.  Tried to do as much work my own self as I could, as I could never sub out work and get a job I was happy with. Except for a very few exceptions.
Anyway I got so sore with licensed plumbers and hvac and electricians, I needed to get out before I beat some sense into some of them with a 2x4.

[Qweaver]

Anyway I got so sore with licensed plumbers and hvac and electricians, I needed to get out before I beat some sense into some of them with a 2x4.

I hear you Andy.
And that's exactly how I feel about the hall.  I just look at the work and think, why would they do that? 
I really don't have time to take away from working on my cabin but we're going to take a day next week to get it right.  Actually the return air vents are poorly located as well, but that is going to have to wait a few weeks.
Quinton

[Don P]

I feel the same way pretty often, Friday at 4 was the latest. Sub hooked up the range and buried a fitting  >:(. What t's me off is I'm not allowed to work outside my license and yet I have to hire in subs who are not invested in the project the way I am, its just a short day job to them and they could care less. Somebody dinged the entry door this week and broke the latch handle on the back door. These were both imported expensive items, it looks like a toolbox ding on the entry. We've brought appliances and lumber through those doors for months without hitting them, it takes a little caring is all. I've run the range, I can hire a big company and get inexperienced hourly workers or I can hire little companies and hope there is pride, sometimes there is, sometimes not. On my neighbors project last week the painters came in, didn't tarp the kitchen and got the cabinets and granite tops.

As far as owner builders being exempt, I don't agree. A 7 year old child died this week after falling through a untempered storm door and cutting an artery. Codes do save lives, codes should be about life safety. If we would get that through our heads when we write laws, enforcement would be a whole lot more palatable.

I almost left this job before it started when the homeowner was complaining about something that I could see his hand in also. I let him know that long after we had both spent his money the only thing that would echo through the community was his pleasure or displeasure with our work. I've seen good people taken down by toxic clients before. Which just leaves more bad ones who don't care.

Thought some of you all might like to see the first building code known. It comes from Mesapotamia, the cradle of western civilization...Iraq

If a builder build a house for some one and complete it, he shall give him a fee of two shekels in money for each sar of surface.

   If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

   If it kill the son of the owner the son of that builder shall be put to death.

   If it kill a slave of the owner, then he shall pay slave for slave to the owner of the house.

   If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means.

   If a builder build a house for some one, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means.

[tim1234]

My friend, a Master Electrician wired my garage.  It had a 2nd floor with 2"x12"x24' hem fir joists 12" OC.  He drilled for the grage door openers in the middle of the span about an 1" from the bottom of each floor joist -- all the way across :'(.  When I asked him why, he said the strength came from the TOP of the joist not the bottom >:(.   I might as well saved my money and bought 2x10's.

He had great sidekicks too.  Somehow they wired 2 banks of lights that were supposed to be on 2 different switches so that either switch turned on all of the lights.  Also there were 2 outlets in the wall with a wire between them, but no homerun to the panel.  I didn't find this one out untill after the drywall was up and they didn't work.  I took pictures before the drywall went up so I know what happend.  Why did I pay these guys again ???

While the last 2 issues may not have been code violations the floor joist drilling certainly was.  The city inspectors passed everything, but the same as scgargoyle, they put me throught the ringer on my homeowner permits.  They also said I did a better job than most contractors in the end.  I wonder why they don't scrutinize the contractors more if the homeowners do a better job than most contractors????  Seems it should be the other way around.  Just because you know someones work doesn't mean they don't make mistakes or hire someone that doesn't have the same quality standards as the owner.

Tim

[sawguy21]

This topic really gets me going. I don't like silly rules and their heavy handed enforcement either but good building codes and REASONABLE interpretation are important for safety and liability. I would occasionally go out with a real estate appraiser and was appalled at some of the work I saw. One brand new house was so bad he put in an appraisal subject to an engineer's report.
I have also seen poor design and shoddy work by people who really did not know what they were doing. A friend of my mother's who called himself a carpenter did some shoddy repair work on a porch at the back of her house. In her eyes, he could do no wrong but a year later she finally had to admit her error in judgment.

[tim1234]

Sawguy21,

You are right, not every homeowner puts in the time to know what is right or what is wrong.  Some homeowners need to be protected from themselves. 

The thing that gets me going is when you pay for someone who is licensed by the state and monitored by inspectors and still you get garbage.  The contractors like that should loose their licenses but it isn't that easy.  Usually it ends up being the homeowners problem to fight it out in court.  But your still stuck living with the substandard work, just like the AC units Qweaver was talking about in the original post.  Plus the HVAC sub is probably long gone.  He has the money, Qweaver's cousins are stuck with the shoddy workmanship.

Also just becasue something is done to code, doesn't mean it will work

Tim

[Handy Andy]

  You know, as I see it, the licensing process is just a way of protecting these no-goods from competition.  Home builders are not allowed to do plumbing unless they have a plumbing license, so we have to hire these bums protected by their license.  Licensing does not mean you get good work.  And the material used for plumbing gets easier to use all the time.   Now we have this pex pipe, which is just hose for water lines, instead of solid copper, fittings and soldering.  Seems to me if not for licensing, carpenters could do a better job of installing plumbing in a new house than the plumbers.  And it could still be inspected.

[Larry]

This topic gets me hopping also.  I found in my former life as a telephone company outside plant engineer that good plans, detailed specifications, and a inspection by a qualified person after work is completed eliminate most problems.  And the contractor doesn't get a paycheck until defects are corrected.

I live in the land of no building permits, codes, or inspectors.  I relied on an architectural engineer to check plans, answer questions, and do inspections on completed work when I built my house 17 years ago.  We became friends and I've had him do the same work on several projects since.  He doesn't cost money...he saves my money.  And more importantly the project is built safely, and will be insurable in the future. 

When I built my house specifications called for PVC waste pipe.  Plumber used ABS.  Specifications called for a lot of 20A circuits using 12 gauge wire.  Electrician  put in 15A circuits using 14 gauge wire.  Both trades were good to go by code...but they got to re-do there work because they bid it by MY specifications.  Both did good work...they just didn't take the time to read the specs.  The HVAC guy was so bad he didn't get a chance to correct his work...I fired him on the spot. :(

Quinton, since the builder is a respected local and the structure is only 3 years old why not give him a chance to make it right?