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Timber supply in British Columbia

Started by rmack, July 01, 2013, 11:49:40 AM

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rmack

From what I understand, this is a highly illegal act in British Columbia, one that could result in the impounding/seizure of the poor bugger's truck who ends up buying these logs.

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the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
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beenthere

I'm curious, what is the illegal act ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rmack

Quote from: beenthere on July 01, 2013, 12:02:38 PM
I'm curious, what is the illegal act ??

selling or transporting logs without a registered timber mark. both buyer and seller are breaking the law, buyer could lose his truck/trailer as well as the logs. things are different up here.  :'(

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hth/private-timber-marks.htm

the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

fuzzybear

if it's from private land you do not need a timber mark. Off of crown land, they can seize everything.
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

rmack

Quote from: fuzzybear on July 01, 2013, 12:57:52 PM
if it's from private land you do not need a timber mark. Off of crown land, they can seize everything.

maybe you should read the last link again.

QuotePrivate timber marks are required for transporting logs from privately-owned land.

My understanding is that, if there is no timber mark, the law assumes the logs to have come from crown land.


the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

sawguy21

You are right, without that mark they have no way of determining where the wood came from short of dna testing. Those hammers are jealously guarded, they can and have been used to mark stolen timber.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

beenthere

One would think that taking pictures, such as the one shown with the stumps also in the pic, would be evidence enough (especially in court) that the logs were from private land.
As well, seems the "enforcers" would have some responsibility when notified of such a sale, to mark such logs as a public duty to private owners.
But maybe not.... just guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rmack

Quote from: beenthere on July 01, 2013, 02:42:13 PM
One would think that taking pictures, such as the one shown with the stumps also in the pic, would be evidence enough (especially in court) that the logs were from private land.
As well, seems the "enforcers" would have some responsibility when notified of such a sale, to mark such logs as a public duty to private owners.
But maybe not.... just guilty unless you can prove your innocence.

I don't think it's a matter of being guilty until proven innocent, the rules are clear.

BC's timber resource is a $trillion dollar asset that is 94% publicly owned, the government has a genuine duty to regulate the harvest.

I guess it just boils down to who bears the burden of proof of ownership. I think it makes sense for the guy who is trying to sell those logs to meet the rules to prove, down the line, that they came from his property. 'an unstamped load of logs is a stolen load of logs' is easy enough to remember.  Should my tax dollars go to paying forest rangers to run around trying to match logs to stumps?  :D

one picture does not a log from my property make.  ;)
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

beenthere

Ok, I wasn't too clear with my thoughts.

What is that home owner with logs for sale have to do?
Needs a hammer mark to move the logs, but who will mark the log for him/her to "meet the rules" ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rmack

Quote from: beenthere on July 01, 2013, 05:33:04 PM
Ok, I wasn't too clear with my thoughts.

What is that home owner with logs for sale have to do?
Needs a hammer mark to move the logs, but who will mark the log for him/her to "meet the rules" ??

He goes through the paperwork and the gov issues his mark, buys or makes a hammer, and stamps the logs himself before they leave his property, he is the only one in the province with that stamp, it is his government identification, so to speak. I don't believe he has to stamp all logs, but a few and on both ends of each load. also has to paint same timbermark on each side of the load.

seems like most people just don't want to be bothered with the paperwork and don't realize the danger they are putting the buyer in, that or they are willing to screw the buyer right out of business to save on income tax.

I'm preparing to start buying logs, and I realize it is extremely important to know/learn the rules here. ;)

I have to hand it to the folks at Woodmizer Salmon Arm, they made it quite clear that if I decided to haul my mill up in the bush and start cutting lumber on the sly, that I would be in a zero tolerance position and would certainly lose my mill if caught. Did I tell you these diesel mills are fairly noisy?  ;D
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

reride82

rmack,

Is it similar to a cattle brand where it is a one time paperwork deal, or everytime they do a timber harvest? How long is that timber stamp good for? In Montana a cattle/horse brand has to be renewed every ten years. Is the timber stamp a similar system then? For a ranch with a lot of timber its not a problem, but what about the guy with 5, 10, or 20 acres? That is interesting for sure.

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

rmack

Quote from: reride82 on July 01, 2013, 06:58:05 PM
rmack,

Is it similar to a cattle brand where it is a one time paperwork deal, or everytime they do a timber harvest? How long is that timber stamp good for? In Montana a cattle/horse brand has to be renewed every ten years. Is the timber stamp a similar system then? For a ranch with a lot of timber its not a problem, but what about the guy with 5, 10, or 20 acres? That is interesting for sure.

Levi

from the above BC Government link, it has live links in it.

I believe the mark is yours alone to use, is transferable across different land titles, does expire periodically but will not be issued to someone else, and can be renewed.  :)

QuoteHow do I apply for a private timber mark?

Print and complete the application form then send it to your local Forest District Office or FrontCounter BC Office.  There is a link to these offices and contact names below.

Do I need a separate timber mark for each parcel of property I own?

No, one mark can be used on many different properties.

Is it possible to renew an expired or cancelled timber mark?

Yes, some people want to keep their old hammers.  Just select the "renewal" option at the top of the application form.

Where can I find more information?

Click on the "Timber Marks for Private Land Brochure" for more details.  You can also send your questions to privatetimbermarks@gov.bc.ca but do not send your application here.  You have to apply for a timber mark through your local Forest District or FrontCounter BC office.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

Paul_H

The process is simple and easy and I've had no problems either.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

highleadtimber16

Temporary timber stamps can be applied for and usually last five years. If you have one timber stamp you can use it on any logs you transport. Forestry has no way of proving the log/logs was from a different property. Temporary stamps are just spray painted on. If need be you can get hammers made for about $250-300.
2011 Wood-Mizer LT 40 hyd w/ 12' Extension,
EG 200 Wood-Mizer
Cutting Old Growth Cedar from Queen Charlotte Islands.

Brucer

I've been shifting timber around in BC (legally) since 2006. Here's the rules;

A portable sawyer is allowed to mill timber on privately-owned land if the timber is for the owner's use and the owner does not intend to sell it. Under these circumstances there is no paperwork required and the wood does not need to be scaled.

For any logs to be moved on the highway they must have either a timber mark or a timber brand. The truck moving the wood must have a load slip. These rules don't apply to logs shorter than 4' or with a diameter less than 4". Doesn't matter if it's being moved from private land to private land -- if it gets transported on the highway it must have a mark.

The timber mark is associated with a property or harvest area and shows where the wood originated. The logs must be delivered to a registered scale site and scaled when they arrive at their destination. All scaling results are submitted to the Ministry of Forests.

The timber brand is applied to logs that have already been scaled and are being forwarded to some other destination. The brand is unique to the site where the logs were received. There's no need to scale these logs because that's already been done and reported.

My log supplier buys logs from several areas so the logs in his yard will have several different timber marks. When he sells me a load, the logs will have the supplier's timber brand on them. On the odd occasion when I sell a log to somebody, I have to apply my own timber brand to the logs I ship out.

There is no cost for a homeowner to get a timber mark (Forestry doesn't want to penalize us for being honest). The application may take a few weeks to process but the mark is good for 5 years.

And for the guy who cuts down a tree or two in his back yard and wants me to mill it up for him, there is also a timber mark exemption available. The application is simple and Forestry tries to process it within 24 hours. They accept applications by mail, fax, or e-mail, and they return the paperwork the same way. The exemption can also be used in place of a load slip.

For us little guys there is no need for a hammer mark. Lumber crayon on the ends of the logs and spray paint on both sides of the load is good enough.

It sounds bureaucratic but it is actually very straightforward. Forestry tries to keep it simple. They also go pretty easy (once) on people who don't know the rules but aren't trying to steal logs.

I make darn sure I follow the rules. The Forestry people I deal with appreciate it. They reciprocate by helping me find suppliers, and sources of unusual wood products.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

captain_crunch

Here in Oregon timber and cattle are by rules to be branded while being transported on public roads. But been years since cattle rule been enforced but Logs are watched. Mills will not buy unbranded logs and brand is required on purchase order
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

rmack

QuoteAnd for the guy who cuts down a tree or two in his back yard and wants me to mill it up for him, there is also a timber mark exemption available. The application is simple and Forestry tries to process it within 24 hours. They accept applications by mail, fax, or e-mail, and they return the paperwork the same way. The exemption can also be used in place of a load slip.

would that also apply if I just bought the logs outright? is there a specific limit on volume that can be exempted? I have registered as a scale site and have my mark.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

ST Ranch

Brucer - You did a great job of explaining how it works - well done! 

I am a licensed log scaler and also have my own timber brand [and scale site] and agree with you that once one gets to know how everything works and gets a good working relationship with Forestry Scaling dept, it is not to complicated. 

One thing you did not mention is in regard to trying to "salvage" logs, say a few blowdown trees on Crown Land. This involves a bit more costly and timely process in order to get a Salvage Permit and the timber mark that goes with it. Again this is done through an aplication process to the Ministry of Forests. Usually for  few logs the cost is prohibitive, but for a log truck load it is bearable.
Tom
LT40G28 with mods,  Komatsu D37E crawler,
873 Bobcat with CWS log grapple,

Brucer

Quote from: rmack on July 02, 2013, 10:15:07 AM

would that also apply if I just bought the logs outright? is there a specific limit on volume that can be exempted? I have registered as a scale site and have my mark.

If you buy the logs, they either have to be prescaled, or else they need a timber mark and have to be scaled at your site.

The Scaling department if pretty reasonable around here. A local firewood guy will bring in a logging truck load of firewood (i.e., junk) and take a digital photo of each end. He e-mails this to the Scaling department and they exempt him from having the load scaled ... unless they spot a sawlog in the load.

Tom, you're right I didn't mention salvage logs. I had one guy have me saw up  load a few years ago. He got a salvage permit, someone from Forestry estimated the volume and he got the paperwork to have it delivered to me. What a disaster that was. Decay, shake, badly fallen tries that broke up on impact, big knots, serious spiral grain ...

They were big logs and he got enough good wood to recover his costs but I haven't heard from him again.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

rmack

the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

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