Hunter safety

[WV Sawmiller]

   Okay, maybe I'm just getting old, venting some (which is usually not a great idea) and this may end up being too controversial and end up in the woodshed so please keep your comments appropriate and tactful.

   I am becoming increasingly concerned when I read the news about all the hunters and others hurt this year by "hunters". The last I saw I think it was something like 7 people who shot others or themselves while hunting in Wisconsin. I think it was New York where the lady walking her dogs at or after sunset and was mistaken for a deer and shot by a guy with a pistol of all things. I see a guy from Fla was killed hunting in Ohio. I forget where it was but a "hunter" saw a flash of brown and shot a guys brown truck.

    I remember several years working a project in the northern panhandle of WV between Ohio and Pennsylvania and on the first day or so of deer season in Pa I saw one guy on his "deer stand" which was leaning on a billboard pole overlooking I-70. That year or might have been the previous year a lady hunting had to take a bathroom break in the woods and was shot and killed when another "hunter" saw a flash of white (her underwear) and thought it was a deer's tail. I think she still had her orange coat on.

    I'd bet all these states have hunter safety programs. Why aren't they working? I am certainly no fan of adding more regulations but how can we stop this?

    Yeah - I know "You can't stop stupid."

    I have posted before about having a Norwegian daughter (former exchange student) who hunts with her dad over there and she has told me about their regs. First she has to prove she has access to hunting grounds (Member of a club, landowner, etc.). Next she has to fire at least 30 rounds in practice with a DNR equivalent rep from over there observing then hit a 5" target 5 times in a row at 100 meters. The DNR rep then writes her rifle number on her license. If she wants to hunt with different rifles she has to repeat the training and qualification with the subsequent rifle(s). They have to even have access to a trained/certified tracking dog to track down any wounded animals if such happens.

    Even that does not always work - a co-worker in 2008 when I was working in Southern Norway was hunting and his best dog had a wounded/dying moose bayed and a guest hunter with them tried to shoot the moose and shot off both front legs of his dog which then had to be put down.

   To really stir the pot - it seems the worst reports are coming from the north and east regions of our country and not from the deep south or out west. Maybe I am just not hearing about them there as I am sure they have problems too.

    Is this caused by a bunch of careless city slickers who just never grew up with responsible adults constantly beating hunter safety into their brains at an early age and all their formative years? It sure makes me want to pay extra attention to my grandkids hunting training. I like the idea of kids getting responsibly involved in outdoor sports but they need good adult supervision in the process.

   If anybody lives in a State with regs and policies that are working I'd love to hear them and I'll pass them along to a friend who is a member of our state congress here. I hunt almost exclusively on my own land but that may not mean I am safe there.

[Autocar]

You already said the answer to the hole problem [ You Can't Fix Stupid ]

[Grizzly]

We watch pretty close during hunting season up here. Strangers wandering around in vehicles hoping to see something they can shoot from the cab and stuff like that. Or trespassing on posted land. But the ones we watch for real close are the outfitters. They seem to believe that rules don't apply to them or to the foreign hunters that have paid them. We headed to church one morning and discovered a bunch of American hunters out in our field. I pulled in to say hello and they all introduced themselves and told me they had permission. Well, no fault to them but their outfitter was on scene real quick and talking real fast. I wasn't impressed.

And all guns were lying around with muzzles pointing in no safe direction. I was a little bothered.

Our training is good but redneck dads undue a lot of good things the young ones learn.

And on top of all that......... yeah. You can't fix stupid.

[coxy]

this is a good one      my neighbor about 800ft away on top of the hill  who only has 6a of land   him and his 40year old son sits about 200ft from there house they have a 500 or bigger gal propane tank about 30ft from there house well a deer goes between them and the tank the son shoots at the deer never gets it but started to think after the fact oh my did I hit the tank : : they called the propane co they came up looked at the tank and said well we don't know if you hit the tank so we have to put in a new one charged them for it this time and also told them that the propane in the tank was no longer good cause if there was an impact to the tank it would mess up the molecules in the propane making it unsafe to use  :D  so this summer they put a 16in thick concrete wall around the tank  the concrete guy told him any one with brains would not shoot at there own house     the same guy the father gets a pistol permit and is afraid to take the gun out of the holster because he may shoot him self in the leg I told him don't put your finger in the trigger hole but he don't understand what I'm talking about  this is the people I have to live around  and he don't understand why I don't like him I call him all kinds of names    oh and he use to live in Brooklyn ny so that says it all if you ask me      I don't like to call the law on anyone but this has to stop before one of my family  gets killed   I don't care if they do it to them self

[thecfarm]

The rule is,identify what you are shooting at.
A women got shot picking rocks and dried flowers here in Maine. She did not know it was hunting season. Than I wonder why Brenda is on me about wearing orange when I am out cutting wood. Which I do.

[sawguy21]

I am uneasy going into the woods during hunting season. Hunters are SUPPOSED to have taken a safety course before being issued a license and tag, big game is on a lottery system, but there are still too many abuses. Two or more hunters go out with one tag, the tag holder claims whatever is taken regardless of who shot it. Alcohol  coupled with adrenaline is a recipe for trouble. Then there are the poachers who didn't get or even apply for a tag. The CO's are doing the best they can but are badly outnumbered.
A couple of years ago two B.C. men were observed trying to load a moose in a truck. On a hunch the plate number was recorded, when the other party returned the animal was lying on the side of the road. It was reported and the offending party was tracked down. It went to court and through an interpretor they claimed they didn't understand the regulations but it wasn't their first offense. The judge reamed them out for not even attempting to field dress the animal and threw the book at them.

[WV Sawmiller]

cfarm,

   I saw where a 14 y/o girl shot a small elk in Missouri a week or so back. She saw antlers and the body but evidently not the rest of the head which was behind a bush so she made a clean killing shot with her .243. When she got to it she realized what she had done. Evidently elk were rare or unheard of in that area and there was no legal season for them. She told her dad and they promptly reported it to their DNR who took possession of the carcass and were going to use the head as a training aid in future hunter safety classes. The last i heard the DNR had not decided on whether to charge her or not since it was an honest mistake and the fact they promptly reported it.

    I would not qualify this as a hunter safety issue but it does reiterate the point about seeing your target clearly before shooting. This was a simple mis-identification and they did what they could to make it right after the fact.

   I once killed a swimming otter thinking it was a beaver. Both were legal but I honestly would not have shot it if I'd known it was an otter as I had no need for the meat or hide. Otters were relatively rare and unexpected and beaver were plentiful and I had a use for one.

[Texas Ranger]

Texas has mandatory hunter safety courses for anyone over 12, born after a certain date ( which I forget), Texas rarely has a hunter killed by another hunter, usually they shoot themselves, some how.  We end up with a couple a year, or worse are the outlaw hunters, road hunters, trespassers, etc.  I taught HS for over 15 years and think it helps, but, as has been mentioned, you cannot fix stupid.

[Crusarius]

Last year they legalized rifles around me. I heard so many ppl bragging about their 30-06 rifles they were going to use and pop dear at 1000 yards. The only way you can see that far in this part of the state is across a farmers field or if you find a nice straight road. What ppl don't understand is that a 30-06 will pass through a 6" diameter tree and still have enough velocity to kill something on the other side. Ppl are just reckless and don't think. When I took hunter education in AZ they drilled into everyone's head KNOW WHAT IS BEHIND YOUR TARGET BEFORE YOU SHOOT! you can't take it back.

I shot one deer when living in AZ at about 50 yards with my 30-06 using 125 grain rounds. I hit it dead center of the shoulder. The front dropped and the deer was dead before it hit the ground. Funny thing was the back end was still standing. Nice clean kill. but what sucked was I shattered all the bones across the shoulders and ruined all the meat. After that I decided 30-06 is to big for deer.

[Magicman]

What ppl don't understand is that a 30-06 will pass through a 6" diameter tree and still have enough velocity to kill something on the other side.

Sorry but no 30-06 hunting bullet will penetrate through any 6" tree species.

I shot one deer when living in AZ at about 50 yards with my 30-06 using 125 grain rounds.

A .30 caliber, 125 grain bullet would be designed for varmint shooting and inappropriate for deer.  It would be expected to do exactly what it did.  A 30-06 shooting 150+ grain hunting bullets is an accepted normal for deer hunting.

[drobertson]

Well if what MM says holds true, then I reckon a many folks using 125g broadheads during archery is inappropriate as well?  Not wanting to argue the point on recommended loads, but if this kind of thinking is employed, then I suppose all of us using 270's with a 130 gr ballistic is inappropriate too?  WV, not trying to take away from your original post, or the need for more common sense and safety during any hunting season, it's tragic when a life is lost, or wounded due to senseless idiots behind weapons.

[Chuck White]

I have to disagree with you, Lynn, lots of rifle bullets and some pistol bullets will penetrate a 6" tree!

Just sayin'!

[Magicman]

David, your arrowhead example is completely out of context, and a .270 shooting a 130 grain bullet is a poor comparison with a 30-06 shooting a 125 grain bullet.

Chuck, I said "hunting" bullet. 

Someone needs to show me the bullet hole through a 6" tree.

[drobertson]

David, your arrowhead example is completely out of context, and a .270 shooting a 130 grain bullet is a poor comparison with a 30-06 shooting a 125 grain bullet.

Chuck, I said "hunting" bullet. 

Someone needs to show me the bullet hole through a 6" tree.

Its all out of context,  Lynn, anything traveling 2500fps has tremendous static shock, around hear folks use 243's with   great success,  this is not Colorado hills for sure,

[Texas Ranger]

When I hunted deer I used a 30-06, 150 grain hollow point, it very seldom, none that I can remember (nice thing about being old) that went through the deer, mostly neck shots, an occasional heart shot. 

And the comparison of a broad head to a bullet is a non issue, completely different lethal effect.

Will a 30-06 go through a 6" tree?  Not a hollow point, maybe a military round, bronze or copper, black tip, but they are not hunting rounds.

Just my experience.

[drobertson]

Before anyone else gets on the high horse about my comment of a broad head compared to a bullet, let me state for a fact I'm aware of the differences.  My point being some what sarcastic has been misunderstood to some that may believe I would even compare the two. This said in defense of the 30-06 125 gr, round being  an inappropriate round for deer,, well, not knowing anything of the charge, the ballistics of the round or anything else for that matter concerning the comment on his deer is pointless, the man got his deer, and I applaud him.  And what little I know of many ballistic tipped rounds, they will waste some meat, but are very effective in humane kills.

[Crusarius]

I am really starting to regret even making my comment. Next time I will just keep it to myself.

[Texas Ranger]

Naw, we talk, no hostility, mostly observations, everyone has an opinion, everybody views a comment different, so, pass it on and let it die on it's own.  Think of it as talkin around the camp fire.

[coxy]

jmop   I hate an 06 lost 3 deer one year with one and traded it in on a ruger m77 mark 2 260 short barrel  best thing I ever did  8) 8)  it fits my daughter great so I lose it when she goes hunting  :'(    I like my 22hornet also but need to pick your shot  retired my 300mag after buying a regular meat grinder  ;D I cant hit the brood side of a barn with a 30-30 really like my 50cal black powder just wish the season was longer for it                            Crusarius don't take it personal we all get our feathers ruffled every now and again  ;D  but in the next post every thing is back to normal  thats what makes the FF  best place  on earth   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[WV Sawmiller]

  I use 30-06 with 150 gr softpoint with very good effect on deer. I don't think I ever shot one over 100 yards as rarely see on that far away where I hunt. I use 125 gr broadheads because that is what I started with and don't want to change everything and resight in my bow, although going from 125 to 100 gr would likely make little difference.

   Okay, back on point - I read tonight where somebody in Michigan shot a red and white horse that came to his bait thinking it was a deer. I feel sorry for the owner.

   On a lighter note that reminded me of an article I read in an old outdoor mag one time about a guy out in Arizona, I think, coming up on a city slicker dragging a wild burro he had shot and was bragging about his "mule deer". The writer said he never said a word and even helped him drag it a while. Writer did say he always wondered what it tasted like. :D (See - all threads do eventually get back to food one way or another ;D)

[Crusarius]

its all about the food.

My feathers not ruffled just didn't care for the direction the thread was heading.

Its all good. I do like the ppl on this forum more than almost all the other forums I frequent. Course you guys can't beat my own forum

[Texas Ranger]

Old joke, hunter shoots a "deer", cowboy says " Can I get my saddle off?

[coxy]

   coming up on a city slicker dragging a wild burro he had shot and was bragging about his "mule deer". The writer said he never said a word and even helped him drag it a while. Writer did say he always wondered what it tasted like. :D (See - all threads do eventually get back to food one way or another ;D)

grits  that what it would have tasted like  :D

[WV Sawmiller]

Tex,

   Yes, I had heard that one.

Coxy,

   Are you saying that even an old burro would be a tasty meal as long as you served him with a good helping of well cooked grits? They are a wonderful food but even they have some limits. :D

[coxy]

every thing food related must have the word grits in it  I don't eat them    cfarm and I are on the same page with them but he has a box of them at home    I wont let them in my house  :D

[thecfarm]

Ayup,I have a lifetime supply of grits.  ;D

[goose63]

I have a 25-06 and I shoot 120 grain hp's or 117 grain btsp's both is pured hell on a deer the last one I shot left a big hole when it came out at 125 yards

[Magicman]

Yup, as long as you pay attention to ballistic coefficient charts you are OK.

[Crusarius]

I still keep thinking about a 243. Would love to build and AR but NY safe act is a killer there and the .223 round is in my opinion a little to small for deer.

[Claybraker]

Yup. If Remington ever makes a model 7 left hand I'll buy one if it's in an acceptable caliber, and .243 is on my short list, mostly 'cause I don't own one.  There's a dizzying array of calibers that weren't around 50 years ago when I first started hunting with my Dad.  Back then it was the 30.06 or the 30-30 around these parts.  Other calibers existed,  and I could read about them in outdoor magazines,  but they were all used in places I could only dream about hunting  and species I could only fantasize about as a 10 year old. .243 and the .270 have managed to stand the test of time.  It will be interesting to see how many of the current crop of new calibers make the grade. My guess is not many.

[sandhills]

Going back to the burro story, my highschool  wood shop teacher worked in a filling station growing up, one day an out of state car full of hunters pulled up and were so proud of all the "quail" they'd gotten.  They popped the trunk to show him and he said it was full of meadowlarks, our state bird  :D.  He said I just let them go and didn't tell them any different.

[Grizzly]

.243 is the smallest caliber allowed for game hunting here in SK. Probably more of Canada cause I seem to remember that it was that way in BC as well. Smaller caliber's were leaving too many wounded critters not being found.

My son took down a nice bear with his .243. It's hanging on the wall now. (just the rug)

We've got 30-30, .270, .243, and .223 in our house so lots of arguments........ sorry, discussions take place. I tease that the 30-30 is like a good quarterback. So long as the bullet spirals instead of tumbles it'll go a little ways. Stirs quite a bit of reply.  ;D

[LeeB]

I guess ya'll are really going to have a field day when I tell you I hunt with a 30-06, 200 grain.

[BradMarks]

LeeB:  are those round nose?  I shoot 150 for deer and 180 for elk, 30.06.  Somewhere in the range of 250-300 yds uphill, (I say 250, buddies say much longer) I shot an elk that the bullet went thru the right front shoulder/leg (tricep?) muscle, thru one side of rib cage clean, no internals (which is weird), barely nicked a rib bone other side, thru the same opposite muscle left shoulder and lodged against the hide, no exit hole!  Tumbled down the hill, broke a tine, finally bled out. Perhaps that is my effective max range? Or a freak shot?  Most kills have been relatively close since then.

[Claybraker]

Here in Georgia our deer tend to be smaller size, and distances also tend to be short-  75 yds or so.  maybe even 50 yds or less.  'gators get some size to them, but a .22 is what most people use for them. Shot placement is everything.  As far as shooting Brown Bears, I've been up close and personal with Ursus Horribilis, and Horrible describes their breath perfectly.  I'd want something with a lanyard to shoot one. My buddy's .35 Whelen maybe.

[sawguy21]

.243 is the smallest caliber allowed for game hunting here in SK. Probably more of Canada cause I seem to remember that it was that way in BC as well. Smaller caliber's were leaving too many wounded critters not being found.

My son took down a nice bear with his .243. It's hanging on the wall now. (just the rug)

We've got 30-30, .270, .243, and .223 in our house so lots of arguments........ sorry, discussions take place. I tease that the 30-30 is like a good quarterback. So long as the bullet spirals instead of tumbles it'll go a little ways. Stirs quite a bit of reply.  ;D

That must have been an extremely well placed shot, normally a .243 would just make the bear mad.

[LeeB]

I'm quite sure 200 grain is way overkill for what i hunt, laugh- haven't shot a deer in years. It's just what I started with and didn't know any better or different so stayed with it. Actually I moved down a notch to 180 the last couple of times I shot one. Our deer aren't real big and now that I have learned a little something here I'm quite sure I don't even need that. I do want to try hunting with a diferent rifle and have thought about a 243. I'm no big hunter. Know very little about different guns. I just remember my brother had a 243 when we were younger. Last thing I shot with the 30-06 was a big wild boar and he dropped in his tracks.

[drobertson]

It's true, so many folks grew up hunting what they were taught with, and of course what worked.  After working nearly 20 years with an Austrian tool maker,/trophy hunter,  I've learned plenty about whats' expected in different area's and countries for that matter.  All that said, it's a common conversation around these parts about calibers and loads, and the funny thing is and I've heard it many times over, " why there's been more deer killed with a 30-30 than any other gun around these parts,"  And I am close to believing it, my first deer was with a model 94 Winchester 30-30, and to add salt to the wound of a few missed (good bucks) with a bow, only found out the one of them was shot with none other than a 30-30, a ten year old's first deer,  :D   go figure, that one,,back the the main point, there will always be folks with guns that just should not have them, and others that are of the greedy (early season) hunters, and night time hunters, well, not much to say,, lower than dirt,

[Claybraker]

,back the the main point, there will always be folks with guns that just should not have them,

Pretty much. Hunting related accidents seem to be on the decline, at least around here, but the number of firearms related accidents have been on the increase, with the increased popularity of carrying or owning a firearm for self defense. I really shouldn't call them accidents, my safety director at the phone company didn't believe such a thing existed. Some outcomes are predictable. Leaving a loaded firearm where a curious 5 year old can get their hands on it. It happens all too often down here.

[Magicman]

PatD sent her .243 to E. R. Shaw many years ago and had it re-barreled to a 7mm-08.  It is sweet shooting and what I shot the coyote with this morning.  140 gr. bullet is dead meat and I have lost track of how many deer she has killed with it.

It's what Jeff shot his "Magic Buck" with last January.  Magic Bucks 2016

[Chuck White]

Around here, the array of 7mm's is very popular!

I have a  Rem. model 7 in 7mm-08, TC ProHunter in a 280, Rem model 700BDL (circa '62) in 7mm Mag!

With a proper hit, it doesn't take much to drop a WhiteTail!

[WV Sawmiller]

    My Norwegian daughter (former exchange student) and her dad use 6.5 mm rifles (approximately .260 caliber) to hunt reindeer, their deer which are similar to our elk and moose and find it very effective. I do not know what bullet weights they are using.

    I have always said I preferred 30-06 and .270 because of the diversity of bullet loads available for different kinds of game.

   Not strictly related to hunter safety as long as the shooter knows his target and background but does bleed over into the ethical hunting issues.

[Magicman]

For several years I carried my .280 to Wyoming and Colorado as my hunting rifle.  Not thinking one year I shot "too" many times at the shooting range thinking that I could buy more cartridges at the store.  That is when I found out never to carry an "odd ball" caliber.  I killed a bull Elk on opening day that year but I have always carried a 30-06 as my primary shooter since then.  When we both hunted Marty and I both carried 30-06's so that our cartridges were interchangeable.

[Chuck White]

Good idea Lynn!

I've reloaded since 1974 and over the time, I've accumulated 35 sets of dies, smallest caliber is the 17 Remington and the largest is the 45-70 Government!