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Wages

Started by luvmexfood, October 09, 2014, 07:06:40 PM

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luvmexfood

Thought I would post this just to give everyone a general ideal what the going rate for logging in this area.

Saw the following adds on the State of Virginia Employment Job Site today. Job is listed in Wise County, VA.

Skidder operator minimum 2 years experience $10-$12 per hour depending on experience.

Timber cutter must have 5 years experience in actual logging. Will not take tree trimming experience as a substitute. $13-$15 per hour depending on experience.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Spartan

 smiley_thumbsdown

That is almost offensive to me.

Jamie_C

Those are pay rates that I haven't seen in over 20 yrs .... I wouldn't even think about getting out of bed for what little they pay.

lopet

Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

gologit

Those would be great wages...if it was still 1980.
Semi-retired...life is good.

David-L

Those are very low, especially for an occupation that is as dangerous as deep sea fishing in colder climates and sometimes tops even that.

                                                      David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

landscraper

It appears from online census data that if you could work a 52 week year in Wise County VA at $15.00 per hour you would gross slightly less than double the per capita income for that area.  Bleak. 
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

treeslayer2003

no way could you get good help for those prices

beenthere

If they can't get help at those prices, then they will have to raise their wage offer or go without. IMO.

It doesn't say that a person will stay at that wage, and won't be promoted once they hire on and "show up for work every day" and give their boss a full day of production.
But we seem to all know that most hired will not put out that effort an not likely kept around for very long.  That is sad, but think from what I hear about hiring people who are good workers, it is pretty true.

If there is no room to advance, then that would be the pathetic part.

I do agree the wages offered are not very attractive for a good job.  Maybe the health insurance is the carrot that attracts an interested person.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

BargeMonkey

 Im going to play the devils advocate on this one. My help is all paid more than that per hour, but for alot of people out there in the workforce I would think 12.00 is to much. Not logging related, but in the maritime world the wages for guys starting out are less than that per hour, and thats for a 12hr work day with no overtime and away from home for 6-8 months a year.  :D

Dave Shepard

BargeMonkey, sounds like a good deal, if you're in witness protection. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

redprospector

Quote from: gologit on October 09, 2014, 08:02:39 PM
Those would be great wages...if it was still 1980.
Yep, in 1981 I worked at the newly built Peterbilt plant in Denton, Texas. Started out at $11.91 an hour. I thought I'd never see another poor day.  :D
I lasted 3 months there. Took me that long to figure out I wasn't cut out for factory work (I'm a little slow that way  ;)). There are some things that even money can't buy.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

tmarch

Let's see, an average of $12.50 an hour for a 12 hour day = $150.00 per day x 7 days a week = OMG I know the guy that does this lots.  He's retired to a ranch and sells solar pumps and hasn't EVER had that kind of payday, but he likes it so  :D :D :D :D :D
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 09, 2014, 09:00:49 PM
BargeMonkey, sounds like a good deal, if you're in witness protection. :D
:D  funny you say that because we had one we would swear was. "Mysteriously" went from working in nightclubs in brooklyn to a boat towing stuff all over the pacific... yeah uh huh.
I know guys cutting logs for a large sawmill in Delaware county are only making 14-15 an hour, alot of it is region specific.

Small Slick

The age old wages market. It is definitely a tough debate. "I wouldn't get out of bed for wages that low". Ok. "Modern slavery. ". Ok. No one is making you do either.

Are the wages posted good; I really have no idea I'm not a logger. I do know this however in 1999 I made more than $35/hr in California working construction. Now in wisconsin I make less than that and I own the business.  A local market can and will only bear so much. I also know that in my area it's very tough to find any kind of labor much less experiance  for $12/hour.   A market can only bear so much; depends on the market. John

lynde37avery

why dont they figure it by the footage pay rate ? logging is done by volume not by the hour really. i get paid by the load/footage. but $12 an hr is sad pay for dangerous skilled work. i worked for 8 years or so at about $11 or $12/hr for different places of work and it was terrible. i could almost make a car payment and pay my half of the rent on that wage.
id like to see what the electrician and HVAC pay rates for hired help are for that area.
Detroit WHAT?

Jamie_C

For comparison sakes, most jobs running forestry gear here in Nova Scotia pays between $17 and $21per hour plus you either get a pickup provided by your employer or are paid mileage.
The company I work for pays $19/hr, provides transportation and pays 6% vacation pay instead of the required 4%. This would be considered about average  wages.

HiTech

Today everyone wants to make $50/hr. and not do anything. We are slowly being consumed by technology. Very few skilled craftsmen are left. I started working at $1.80/hr. and thought I was rich. A 6 pack was a $1.25 and you got a "Church Key" with it. lol Inflation is what they call it. The dollar has been inflated so much it is worth very little today. Nixon took us off the Gold Standard which opened the door to inflation and Ron Reagan and Don Regan Secretary of Treasury Inflated the dollar to pay for Viet Nam. Short term Inflation looks great...but long term it is deadly. Won't be long and a wheel barrow full of $100 bills won't buy groceries for a week. Today's world is a different animal. At one time 100,000 feet of wood was a winters work. Today it is a few days. Times change and not always for the better.

treeslayer2003

thats a good point, i never really herd of getting paid by the hour to work in the woods. every thing is on volume...........its a new day........but i ain't gotta like it.

beenthere

QuoteNixon took us off the Gold Standard which opened the door to inflation and Ron Reagan and Don Regan Secretary of Treasury Inflated the dollar to pay for Viet Nam. Short term Inflation looks great...but long term it is deadly.

Ron Reagan is credited for stopping the inflating inflation of the 70's. It was out of control and many people were caught up in being able to borrow money on potential future high inflated land prices only to be left holding an empty bag because those inflated prices didn't hold up. Inflation has been less but still steadily raising since those early 80's. Other than that, carry on. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Hilltop366

Quote from: BargeMonkey on October 09, 2014, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 09, 2014, 09:00:49 PM
BargeMonkey, sounds like a good deal, if you're in witness protection. :D
:D  funny you say that because we had one we would swear was. "Mysteriously" went from working in nightclubs in brooklyn to a boat towing stuff all over the pacific... yeah uh huh.


Tip, if he offers you a ride somewhere and then opens the trunk don't get in!

cutter88

Wow!!! It's hard to keep a good skidder guy here paying 27 bucks an hour
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

luvmexfood

Looked at the add again. No mention of insurance or other benefits. If there was insurance I would think it would be listed. Small company and most around here don't provide insurance.

Don't need insurance we have Obama care. Individual coverage for me with a $6,000 deductible and and for figuring purposes I put down a yearly salary of $10,000. Monthly premium was going to be around $338.00. Affordable care act. Hmm.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

BargeMonkey

 Around here 27.00 an hour is unheard of, except by the guys working union scale construction. I know drivers and machine operators making alot less than that. I know if we where forced to pay that much, plus insurance, S.S, and contribute to their health insurance we would be broke real fast.

gologit

There's another way to look at it...a good crew doesn't cost you money, a good crew makes money for you.

I'd rather pay a little more and keep good experienced dependable guys in the woods that can get the production I need.  I'd rather pay a little more than to cheap it out and have broken/abused machinery and no-shows and be constantly training newbies.

I'm lucky in that, around here at least, there are usually more loggers than there are jobs. Paying a decent wage and benefits gets me the best of what's available.  The guys know that and they usually give me more than my money's worth.  My payback comes in the wood they send down the hill every day and a minimum of the aggravation that cheap. crews cost.
Semi-retired...life is good.

tj240

i worked 10 years for one local logger andd got paid 100 a day cutting and skiidding, next job 15 per hr for 4 years cuuting and skidding for one year, then in the loader delimbing and slashing for 2,460 grapples. next job 5 years ,16 per hr, company truck, plus 30 a day for saw usage paid to me, i supplied gas oil bars chains. then the next job for 7 years at with the same pay and company truck plus one week vacation paid with 5 paid holidays. the money paid depends on where you live and how good you are at the job. in the area i live that is decent money. and i love what i do. make more now tho, and still love what i do. log on fellas
work with my father[jwilly] and my son. we have a 240 tj 160 barko[old] works great three generations working together

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 10, 2014, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: BargeMonkey on October 09, 2014, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 09, 2014, 09:00:49 PM
BargeMonkey, sounds like a good deal, if you're in witness protection. :D
:D  funny you say that because we had one we would swear was. "Mysteriously" went from working in nightclubs in brooklyn to a boat towing stuff all over the pacific... yeah uh huh.


Tip, if he offers you a ride somewhere and then opens the trunk don't get in!
We had a body floating in Erie Basin Brooklyn monday when I went back to work, about 100ft from my car. Handcuffed, shackled, beaten, then drowned. I think someone wanted this guy done. NYC is about to break the record this year for "floaters", biggest problem we get is if we are trying to go north when someone jumps off a bridge, then its a traffic jam till they find the body.

coxy

there has been some weeks I worked for way less then that and some weeks i worked for no pay at all  ;D i am thinking  that's what I get for wanting to be the boss :D :D

Corley5

Quote from: coxy on October 10, 2014, 11:12:03 PM
there has been some weeks I worked for way less then that and some weeks i worked for no pay at all  ;D i am thinking  that's what I get for wanting to be the boss :D :D

Yup  ;D  :)  More than once I've paid employees more than myself.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ed_K

Ed K

redprospector

When I started working in the log woods, I think minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. I went to work for a mill on the "woods crew" with an offer of $5.00 an hour bumping knots on the landing, my first check was for $8.00 an hour. So I felt good that at least they saw the effort I was making. I was on the landing for about 2 months and got moved into a falling job. That paid $13.56 per thousand board feet of logs cut. I provided my saws and supplies, transportation, insurance and everything else. It took a while, but I learned to cut 8 to 12,000 bd. ft. a day (limbed, and bucked to length) of pecker poles, and cut to lead at that. Skidder drivers, and Cat skinners got .75 a stick for wood put in the deck ready to be loaded. All they had to bring to work was their lunch.
We took great pride in the number of trees we could fall in lead and work up in a days time. My experience as the one doing the hiring now is that most people just don't have a taste for working that hard anymore, and very few take that kind of pride in their work.
Paying fallers, and skidder drivers by the hour seems counter productive in my opinion. If they have a "bad day" it doesn't affect their pay check, if they have a really productive day, well, that doesn't affect their pay check either.
If you can't tell, I'm an advocate of piece work. Most don't like it, but if you have a crew that understands how it works, is willing to do what it takes, and takes pride in what they do, you will have a crew that will out perform any hourly crew.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

timberlinetree

I'm all for the harder you work the more you make. Not shure how volume vs wage works. Do you have to pay the difference if the volume workers pay falls below min wage? No mater what it doese seem like inflation is getting out of control! Almost 40k for a new pickup! Don't think I'll ever have one.  >:(
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

36 coupe

Now you know why our jobs have gone to China.Wait til you get on SS and have to pay for products and services made by people making 25 bucks an hour.In the early 60s 2.00 was a good wage.I remember buying a pair of work shoes for 5.00 and dungarees for 2.00 from MW.About a dollar for postage.Banks are paying 1/10 of one percent on savings in effect stealing from us and building hugh new bank buildings.

SliverPicker

Its all pretty simple, really.  When the government deficit spends ($16 TRILLION and counting) all that created-out-of-thin-air money dilutes the money supply so each dollar is worth less than it was before.  Our buying power decreases.

Mid-grade hamburger here is $6.49 per pound with 8.6% tax thrown on top.  How did this happen? 

It happens because we the citizens don't demand that it stop. 

Deficit spending is a massive tax on everyone.  Most people don't even know the mechanism behind this tax.
Yooper by trade.

Ianab

An issue with paying just by volume, you put the incentive on production over safety. People WILL do unsafe things if it makes more $$, and if working safe COSTS them $$, you see the problem?

Then they get themselves killed, and OSH shuts you down.

There is a case going through the courts here where a logger has been charged with manslaughter, for operating a mechanised harvester with ground crew close by, and a tree fell on one of the workers. Why would they be doing that? More production.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

RunningRoot

I cant find any help around here. Wage rate doesn't make a difference. The last guy I tried to work was a joke. I was giving him $165.00 a day as a cutter ( hand felling ), he had no experience prior to me training him as well.
I found that after 2 weeks of him not producing timber in a timely manner he was sitting down every time I would head down the hill with a hitch behind the skidder/dozer and then he would get back up and start working when he heard me coming back up the hill. I parked the dozer at the landing and walked up 4 times and watched him do this before I decided he wasn't just resting and I then let him go.

Nobody wants to work anymore. Kids these days know nothing of hard work it seems. I mean, I know there are some out there that are good hard workers so if you are one of them please do not take offense to this statement.
I have become so frustrated with the fact I can find no help at any rate that I am no longer looking. I can produce more timber on a weekly basis and profit more by myself. There are no experienced fellers around. Any good fellers are now retired and the younger generation wants nothing to do with logging it seems. I am 27 years old and have held a manual labor job all my life, from the age of 14, and I feel like a loan wolf around here. Everyone around here my age wants to either work behind a desk or at Wendys or MacDonalds. I don't understand it.

Sorry if I got sidetracked or off topic with my post. Correct me and I will work on it in the future.
A log in the hands worth two in the bush !

barbender

A good timber faller is a skilled professional, sadly that level of skill pays way more in other fields. The same goes for most other logging positions. I could fire up my union operators card and go to work for half again as much money tomorrow, but I like what I'm doing and it works well for my family life right now- running a forwarder provides me a great deal of flexibility for getting off early to go to my kid's events and such. In construction, the foreman told me what time to be there, and what time to go home (7:00, 8:00, 11:00 >:() I really hated not knowing what time I got to go home. Now I get to decide ;D
Too many irons in the fire

redprospector

Quote from: Ianab on October 12, 2014, 11:24:04 AM
An issue with paying just by volume, you put the incentive on production over safety. People WILL do unsafe things if it makes more $$, and if working safe COSTS them $$, you see the problem?

Then they get themselves killed, and OSH shuts you down.

There is a case going through the courts here where a logger has been charged with manslaughter, for operating a mechanised harvester with ground crew close by, and a tree fell on one of the workers. Why would they be doing that? More production.
As Ron White once said; "You can't fix stupid".
I think that little saying goes with the example you put forth. If a faller, or machine operator is stupid enough to put themselves or others in danger then they should be told to hit the road.
I had a guy come to work as a skidder operator. The job paid by the acre, and he went rip roaring without regard to leave trees or anything else. I kept everyone clear while I watched him work for a few hours, I stopped him for a little talk, he went right back to what he had been doing so I stopped him again and told him I wouldn't be needing someone of his obvious skills (my skidder couldn't take it). My next skidder operator understood that if the skidder was broken...he made nothing, and was very conscientious of others he worked with and around. If memory serves, he averaged over $19 an hour, while others running skidder for the competition were making around $12. I was happy, and he was ecstatic. He worked with me until the job was over, and work ran out. I wish he was still around, but guy's like that don't go unemployed long.

Quote from: redprospector on October 11, 2014, 03:42:09 PM
but if you have a crew that understands how it works, is willing to do what it takes, and takes pride in what they do, you will have a crew that will out perform any hourly crew.
This is what I said, and I still stand behind it. It is up to the employer, or supervisor to make sure the crew is working safely, and get rid of those who just can't understand the concept of piece work.
If you're not working, you're not making anything. If the company you're working for is forced out of business, you sure aren't making any money.
People talk about the "greedy, fat cat business owners", but piece work is as close as anyone working for someone else will come to a partnership. Actually it's like being a contractor.

I realize that I am a dinosaur, and it's painfully obvious that I'm from the "old school". But when people are held responsible, this concept still works. If people aren't held responsible then we have to pay the guy that's worth $3 an hour $12 an hour, but at the same time we have to cut the guy that's worth $20 an hour down to $12 so we can afford to pay the $3 guy $12.

In a less confusing arrangement of words, the good worker is paying the wages of the sorry worker, and carrying him on his back through life.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

gologit

Semi-retired...life is good.

Maine logger88

79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

barbender

X3, when I hauled wood everything was paid by the load (production). I know some would be idiots to make more, but they would be idiots by the hour, too ::)
Too many irons in the fire

lopet

The way i look at it  is that everybody wants a job but nobody wants to work.  I think it's a bit of a trendy thing that physical work is out and making money behind a desk  or online is in.   It's pretty sad,  those kids don't realize they don't get the physical activities they should have at that age.  They would save the money going to the gym and get a daily workout with a much healthier live style.      But reality is different. :o

All you younger fellas on this board you have all me respect specially when times are tough.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

M_S_S

I got a young guy (24) that works for me in the wood. Hard worker, had to train him but is a fast learner and not a slacker. Lol he kinda takes care of the old man.  I pay him weekly and he keeps track of his time, honest to a fault lol. Lol I make enough in the wood to afford him, think he is doing better than me, but that's ok. He needs work and I am just glad that I can provide it for him. I think I am blessed that I met him. ED
2- 562xp 24"bar
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thecfarm

And I bet he is glad he met you too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Small Slick

I wonder if the generations are getting worse and worse when it comes to work ethic. I'm 37 and consider myself in the middle. I remember in the 90's when gen x was considered to be a really bad generation. My dad talks with disgust about the baby boomers who got everything handed to them because their parents had lived through the depression and been through the wars. So they enjoyed prosperity and economic growth while trying to give their kids a childhood they didn't have. Possibly causing the hippie movement and such.

Now today I'm trying to hire "good" help; show up on time every day, work hard when you are there, pay attention to the details, consider what is good for the company, try to be and improve on your value to the company and so on. Not only trying to find those guys but also groom the ones I do have.

It's almost impossible. I have a great crew of guys(we are electricians) but it's still a struggle to improve as a company. They all want to work 40 no more or less they scream bloody murder if we work over or less. I have offered apprenticeships to them and they don't take them. It's too far to drive or the tuition is too much or some other excuse. I paid for my education myself and did not get paid to sit in class, unlike the apprenticeship.

I don't know what it is about the job seekers of today but it's really tough to find good guys at a reasonable wage at any level of skill. Guys just want to squeeze their employer for all they can and put out as little effort as possible.

It's tough as a business owner to know what to do. The future for the skilled trades looks pretty grim.

John

BargeMonkey

 :D  everyone is saying the same thing, from skilled trades to even just a basic laborer the people arent out there. We get by with as little help as we have to for a reason. Im working on opening up a gas station / country store locally and im having stomach pain thinking about 3-5 more people on the books, bookkeeper for another day, and unfortunately undocumented help, 15 packed in a single wide isnt the solution.  :D

Philbo

This is an interesting thread.  I think about wages/$$ in the woods quite a bit.  I'm 27, have and support a young family and have been working in the woods for nearly a year now.  It's not the only thing I do to make money, but I spend most of my "working" time doing it.  I work with 1 guy who has slowly built his company over the last 5+ years, basically a 1 or 2 man show in some form or another the whole time.  This has its own real logistical and production challenges, but is also a blessing as there is less ways to split the $.  I work hard at whatever my task happens to be.  I aim to learn thoroughly to where I can handle the job on my own (if possible) and make quick decisions as needed.  I try to be efficient and organized whenever possible.  I try to show up on time everyday, though having 2 small kids at home can throw you behind in the morning sometimes.  I think of myself as a partner in the company interests and try and work accordingly.  I also try and hone my knowledge of timber and recount my personal experiences to learn from mistakes.

We do a variety of things to make money in the woods/forestry. Some days I make close to $30/hr.  Others I'm lucky to make $8/hr.   The $$ can be very task dependent, but I'd say an overall average of $12-15/hr isn't unrealistic.  This is also a pretty economically isolated/seasonal economy, small population, fairly rural area where it's challenging to find a decent wage job making much more than $10-12/hr.

I'll say that plenty of days I wish that I made more money and other days/weeks I am happy with what I'm making.  The biggest thing is the inconsistency of it due to "uncontrollable" circumstances...weather, breakdowns (can be prevented to a point, but you'll always have something eventually), and at times lack of organization beyond my control.

I'll end by saying that I wouldn't be out in the woods every week bustin' my *** and doing inherently dangerous work if I didn't have a passion for it and love being in the woods.  There's something you get from working outside and in the woods that you can't quantify in dollars, though there are certainly better and safer ways to work so that you can continue to work in the woods from a sustainable perspective (financially and safely.) I think that's one element that has been largely lost in my generation is an appreciation for working outdoors and what it can give to you.  The internet and automated technology have really changed things and opened up opportunities for folks as far as work goes.  It seems like more and more people would rather make $ in more sedentary ways, which isn't inherently bad, but if everybody keeps moving in that direction then who's gonna be left to work the remaining manual labor jobs that still need to be done?

Good thread.

Ianab

Good post Philbo. You understand that that for your boss to pay you ~$30 an hour, you need to be making him ~$60. Now in a true "employee" situation you get paid a set wage. Say it's $20 an hour, you still need to be earning ~$40. Working on a pay for production basis makes you more of a contractor or partner, rather than a traditional employee. More risk (the $8 weeks) but more reward (the $30 weeks)

It also points out that there ARE young guys that are prepared to work. But most of them have decent jobs already. Or have moved to a place where they can get a good paying job, driving trucks or welding etc. Plenty of jobs in those fields if you are prepared to chase it.

So the ones that turn up to a low paying job are pretty much the bottom of the heap. You might get lucky and find a youngster that's looking to get a start. But then you need to up their pay to keep them. Most of the good ones already have a decent job. The rates in the Original Post wouldn't even get your attention right?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Philbo

The rates in the OP seem a bit low, even for my area...which is quite close to Wise Co, VA.  I think it's even more isolated economically and culturally there than where I live and work.  Been there a couple times and strip mining for coal and any jobs that it creates are a huge part of that economy. 

As several others have said in this thread, those wages (and the fact that they are wages per hour instead of production based) aren't likely to attract the anyone very experienced or long-term, in my opinion.  If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

And yes, Ianab, the $30/hr jobs are jobs that are quoted at $60-65/hr and expenses come off the top.  Some other jobs are production based and get held up due to weather/whatever or are slower than I'd like. 

Before doing this I worked as a salaried middle manager in retail industry and barely made $15/hr after 3+ yrs in the position and exceeding sales goals/profitability goals....and I hated it after a while.  Always inside, granted, always getting paid as long as I made it there (even in bad weather), but it's like you said: no risk, no reward.

Kodiakmac

Quote from: cutter88 on October 10, 2014, 03:29:00 PM
Wow!!! It's hard to keep a good skidder guy here paying 27 bucks an hour

I can't afford to hire skidder jockeys or fallers.  I'd either have to run the considerable risk of paying them under the table or put up with the paperwork and costs of the many bureaucracies that suck away any profit if you try to do things above board.  Unemployment Insurance; Workmen's Compensation; WHMIS; CPP; and the soon-to-arrive Ontario Liberal government's mandatory pension plan contributions. 

In any event, it's almost impossible to find any young guys around here who even know how to start and use a chainsaw.  Maybe Echo and Stihl should think about installing swipe-screens.  ;D

And now-a-days it seems like every second dink that gets hired and then fired trots off with some GoPro footage to the Ministry of Labour to make an employer's life even more miserable. 
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

32vld

Quote from: Philbo on October 14, 2014, 08:34:24 AM
If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.


I have a small landscape business. Usually work by myself. Though a complaint that many landscape business owners is that they can not find good help.

Yet they themselves would not do the job they want their employees to do for the money they are willing to pay their own employees.

Poverty level $11,670 for 1, $23,850 family of 4. Average use income $50,000. The only way a family of 1 can live on $11,000 is if he lived in his car.

52 weeks * 40 hr = 2080 hr

$23,850/2080 = $11.47 hr

People do not aspire to make enough to just make the cutoff for the US poverty level.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. Because when I use that mower it has to make enough money to cover my salary, business costs, and enough money to buy another mower when that new mower wears out and needs to be replaced.

If that mower does not make enough money to replace itself when doing work over the course of it's life then to use it is foolish because once that mower dies I am out of business.

SliverPicker

Philbo,

Excellent, thoughtful posts.

Cheers!

In my own case at $15.00 per hour:

$31,200 gross income
-8,869.92 mortgage/housing (real number)
-7,488.00 state and federal income taxes (approx.)
-11,670.00 "Laughable Care Act" (real number including deductible of $6,300.00)

=3,172.08 ($264.34 per month) to pay for food, FUEL, utilities, house maintenance, vehicle maintenance, HEAT, sales tax of 8.6%, etc. etc.

Is it any wonder people aren't motivated to work for $15/ hour?

(Locally the official poverty level for a single person is $32,500.00 per year)

$15 today buys the same as $18.83 bought in 2004. That's 20.34% less.  This is according to the government's calculation of inflation.  When those crooks calculate inflation THEY DON"T COUNT ENERGY (gasoline, diesel, propane, electricity etc. etc. etc.) or FOOD.  The real inflation is rate is about 50% higher than the "official" number. Also, dont' forget that inflation is a compounding function.

Inflation is a massive, intentional tax on everyone.



-
Yooper by trade.

luvmexfood

It's been 5 days and I see the faller ad has been reposted. Didn't see the skidder operator ad. Did see where it said a 5-7 employee company. :P
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Kodiakmac

Quote from: 32vld on October 14, 2014, 10:35:59 AM
Quote from: Philbo on October 14, 2014, 08:34:24 AM
If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.



People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. ..


True, true, and true.  But as more than one poster has noted, I used to pay by volume, not by the hour.  And I figure that if an old fart like myself could make 20 bucks an hour at the rates I would pay (if it wasn't for the red tape), then a young lad should be able to do that without breaking a sweat. 

But the problem is, I couldn't find a guy around here to agree to that unless he was already drawing welfare or unemployment insurance or a disability pension....and I've never hired one of those guys, and I never will.  They are the parasites who are cutting my throat on firewood sales.  My taxes are already giving them a basic hourly rate because they are drawing pogey or welfare or disability, and they are cutting firewood on the side and are able to under-cut me by $30 to 40 bucks a cord.

Every time I hear about this I turn the B******s in. 

Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

32vld

Quote from: Kodiakmac on October 14, 2014, 05:33:51 PM
Quote from: 32vld on October 14, 2014, 10:35:59 AM
Quote from: Philbo on October 14, 2014, 08:34:24 AM
If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.



People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. ..


True, true, and true.  But as more than one poster has noted, I used to pay by volume, not by the hour.  And I figure that if an old fart like myself could make 20 bucks an hour at the rates I would pay (if it wasn't for the red tape), then a young lad should be able to do that without breaking a sweat. 

But the problem is, I couldn't find a guy around here to agree to that unless he was already drawing welfare or unemployment insurance or a disability pension....and I've never hired one of those guys, and I never will.  They are the parasites who are cutting my throat on firewood sales.  My taxes are already giving them a basic hourly rate because they are drawing pogey or welfare or disability, and they are cutting firewood on the side and are able to under-cut me by $30 to 40 bucks a cord.

Every time I hear about this I turn the B******s in.

They can not see the long term effects their pricing has on them and the industry that they are working in. They can not see past the tank full of gas and 12 pack of beer they buy on the way home.

barbender

Down here, FWIW when I used to work seasonal highway construction, I was under the impression that my employer payed in my whole claim, due to a high UE rating from laying off the whole crew every fall. I never felt guilty for one red cent I drew from that account, and I had guys lined up wanting to put me to work in the fall. I would go haul wood, and claim it against my unemployment, but that was to keep a clear conscience toward God, not the state of MN. I knew a lot of guys that got paid cash, I sure didn't hold it against them. I didn't view them as parasites at all, these were guys that busted their butts for a living. I would have a completely different view if it was disability or welfare. I see guys that are out riding horseback all week and they are getting a disability check, that drives me nuts. Maybe my views appear in conflict, but unemoymenot is a tax paid in for every hour of work that I draw off of. No work= no unemployment. It's abused too, no doubt. I know of people that drew for about 3 years because of the extensions given after the recession, they were milking it for all it was worth.
Too many irons in the fire

Philbo

Quote from: 32vld on October 14, 2014, 10:35:59 AM
Quote from: Philbo on October 14, 2014, 08:34:24 AM
If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.


I have a small landscape business. Usually work by myself. Though a complaint that many landscape business owners is that they can not find good help.

Yet they themselves would not do the job they want their employees to do for the money they are willing to pay their own employees.

Poverty level $11,670 for 1, $23,850 family of 4. Average use income $50,000. The only way a family of 1 can live on $11,000 is if he lived in his car.

52 weeks * 40 hr = 2080 hr

$23,850/2080 = $11.47 hr

People do not aspire to make enough to just make the cutoff for the US poverty level.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. Because when I use that mower it has to make enough money to cover my salary, business costs, and enough money to buy another mower when that new mower wears out and needs to be replaced.

If that mower does not make enough money to replace itself when doing work over the course of it's life then to use it is foolish because once that mower dies I am out of business.


Gotta say I agree with all that.  You gotta be either a little bit crazy or very determined (or a little bit of both) to really want to work in the woods in certain places, with so many other easier options for similar $.

With your mower, it's just like anything else in a business like this that should be making you money.  If you can't make enough with it to replace itself during its expected life then why bother?  You know that you gotta have a line in the sand as far as a certain amount you've got to get or more before you even crank the truck and pull out of the driveway with your equip.

We are contemplating buying some type of loader/tractor/backhoe/skid (not sure) to use around our property to get some much needed heavy chores done.  To justify that I'd have to operate it a certain amount of hrs per month at a certain rate or above to pay for itself and make some extra profit for our family.  I enjoy operating machines. I'd love to do it and find the right niche for this local economy, but also have a good idea of how much $ it takes to not only operate a machine but to transport it on a trailer and keep up with everything in that realm to, so I'm a bit hesitant to take out a loan, which we'd have to do to get a decent machine.  On the other hand, I think I'd be crazy not to (because of the earning potential with a good customer base/word of mouth built up) and keep on treading water averaging $12-15 hr and working 40+ hr weeks and not seeing my kids and lady as much as I or they would like....decisions, decisions.

It can be a tough world and economy out there, but I believe that if you keep your head on and always look for opportunities when they present themselves then you at least have the chance to make something better for yourself.  Doesn't mean it will come easily, though. 

redprospector

Just remember guy's, working in the woods isn't really a job...it's a lifestyle.
It really doesn't matter to those of us who have chosen this lifestyle what it pays. We'll figure out how to make it work, that's part of the lifestyle.
I live in an area where a skidder driver only makes about $12 an hour. I choose not to work for that, so I work for myself in the industry.
If the challenge of making it work doesn't appeal to you, then you're probably better off finding something else to do for a living. I mean just in the day to day of running equipment (including a chainsaw) in the woods, you've generally got to figure out how to make it work, or go home.
To keep making a decent living in the woods you may have to do like I had to and diversify. When logging pretty much folded up around here, I eased over into thinning private property for fire prevention. I joke about being a glorified grounds keeper, or an old timber faller who was demoted to thinning contractor,  :D but I'm still in the woods making it work.
Everyone around here that thins the forest, or still logs, has a firewood yard or their own sawmill, because there is absolutely no market for logs. If you want to learn the art of "making it work" move to a place like this. If you can make it in the woods with no log market, you can "make it work" just about anywhere you choose to be.

It's a lifestyle!
If you're just looking for a job, you might try WallyWorld.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

lopet

I totally agree with that redprospector. Working in the woods is not for everybody. I love it and I can make it work with selling  120 - 150 cord of firewood a year and I am not paying anything or very little for the trees. But I also farm and I love that too.
Some days i am glad I don't have to make a living with the wood thing and some days when commodities are down I ask myself why I am doing this. Yes you can call it  a lifestyle and i am blessed to be able doing two things I love with so far I didn't get rich, so I guess it can't be for the money. :) 
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

jd540b

My thoughts are...if you don't want to cut wood for $15/hr for someone else when all you have to do is be on time to work, then goto the bank, borrow $100,000, get some contracts and have at it...good luck!  There are many weeks as a logging contractor where you would be happy to clear $15/hr.
I have issues with the "entitlement" of today.

Philbo

I hear that, but there's different approaches to making money in the woods besides a $100k equipment loan.  We could certainly use some more equipment to help with efficiency (bigger sawmill, knuckle-boom, bigger truck for moving logs) but there's still money to be made on the smaller scale if you have enough diversified services. 

I realize that this model doesn't work for most folks, but it certainly can be done.  We have a bit of a "unique" operation where we skid with either draft horses or a logging winch on back of tractor (depending on site) and are able to get to folks' timber that otherwise don't want it touched or the woods quite as impacted or is too steep for machines.   Gotta be creative sometimes!

jd540b

I was talking more for someone who is just hired help or only has themselves to offer.  If $15 an hr isn't enough-go buy a skidder, truck, saws, tools, insurance, pay for fuel, repairs etc-etc.  and go for it.
that's where I was going with it.

BargeMonkey

 100k gets you a decent skidder, a close to new truck and a few saws. Maybe the first little bit of fuel. I recently went to the bank looking for more equipment, the paperwork and drama borrowing money for forestry equipment is beyond belief. The problem with horses or farm tractors is people dont wanna wait, ive got 3 landowners on me like white on rice, "when can you start" & "why arent you done yet". I wish I came close to 15$ an hour clear money when I get done every week, but its always something. Just ordered 2 more boxes of hose wrap, 450.00, the insurance, the fuel bill. I dont wanna know how the big guys do it, alot of sleepless nights.

lopet

I am pretty sure I am not gonna clear $ 15 per hour as a owner operator but that doesn't matter. Most important thing is I get my bills paid and my monthly payments made and still have some money left to spend ( some times not  ;D ). Its been said earlier,being the boss has its  price , you're chasing jobs  do book work on a Sunday repair at nights etc.
But I wouldn't wonna cut and skid wood for somebody else for $15 per hour. That's just two different pair of shoes.
Just my two cents.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Corley5

Quote from: lopet on October 16, 2014, 07:40:45 PM
I am pretty sure I am not gonna clear $ 15 per hour as a owner operator but that doesn't matter. But I wouldn't wonna cut and skid wood for somebody else for $15 per hour. That's just two different pair of shoes.

smiley_thumbsup  smiley_thumbsup
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Firewoodjoe

Well I make $18 and get a very generous Christmas bounous and my bosses (father son) have a lot nicer stuff then I have. And they really only have one house hold income. My wife is a RN that puts my wadge to a shame. And I still drive a $1200 beater. I also have logged my self and I run my firewood business so I understand both sides

Dave Shepard

I fill in driving silage truck a few times a year. I don't make much, but when the wheel falls off the $400k chopper, it's not my problem, when it catches on fire, it's not my problem. When it rains, and there's five trucks waiting, it's not my problem. I'm sympathetic, but it's not my problem. ;) I go home and cut firewood, or run my mill, and come back when everything is fixed.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

customsawyer

Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Firewoodjoe

 :D :D :Dwell said!

Peter Drouin

Quote from: customsawyer on October 16, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.




smiley_thumbsup  Me too  :D :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

goose63

Quote from: customsawyer on October 16, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.
Me too smiley_argue01
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

Maine logger88

79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

timberlinetree

Me 5 but as I get older and the house gets emptier and running a business keeps getting harder someday I might be punching a clock. Maybe?
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

David-L

Being self employed has been one of the most rewarding things I can say I have done. It's not for everyone but has many advantages over punching a clock IMO. I have also worked for some great bosses and then some not so great. At this point in my life I am getting pretty set in my ways if you know what I mean. Probably best if I stay my own boss. Can't wait for deer season vacation which is right around the corner   
.

                                                     David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

BradMarks

C - section, 8/2/14, $29,000. Healthy granddaughter we have now!

BradMarks

On respective wages, hate to say it, the current local minimum wage greatly affects a "decent working wage" The south and southeast have the lowest minimums in the country, and labor type jobs are pegged to those mins. Out here, tree planters start @ $10-12 with no experience. Good ones get up to $18/hr when working. With long drives, crappy weather, our minimum close to $10, it's no wonder (and pitiful) the current "kids" want an indoor job not involving heavy labor.  Generally speaking, the "enabled" have no work ethic, give me someone from a poor($$) background who longs for the smell of money.

Kodiakmac

Quote from: BradMarks on October 21, 2014, 06:31:16 PM
On respective wages, hate to say it, the current local minimum wage greatly affects a "decent working wage" The south and southeast have the lowest minimums in the country, and labor type jobs are pegged to those mins. Out here, tree planters start @ $10-12 with no experience. Good ones get up to $18/hr when working. With long drives, crappy weather, our minimum close to $10, it's no wonder (and pitiful) the current "kids" want an indoor job not involving heavy labor.  Generally speaking, the "enabled" have no work ethic, give me someone from a poor($$) background who longs for the smell of money.

My friend Brian does fencing.  He went down to the local employment office looking for a labourer to help him on a large contract - he pays $16.00 per hour.  Out of the 90 locals who had their name on file, only one of them was interested in actual labour - and he was 56 years old.  The lady jokingly said to Brian that he would have lots of help if keyboards were involved. ;D
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

terry f

    When I was growing up in Northern California in the early 70's, the loggers were the richest guys in town, and the wages were far above any other jobs. That may still be the case, just less of them.

gologit

It's not the case any more.  Not even close.
Semi-retired...life is good.

lynde37avery

I get up to $40 an hr doing split firewood some times more. Logs about $30+hr. Pulp is like $12. I had to some figureing. I use no more than 15 gal of diesel a week. I think I'm holding up ok.
Detroit WHAT?

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