adding remote hydraulics to timberjack 230a to run a forwarding trailer?

[Sunrise Farms]

Hi guys, I just bought a used primero log trailer and I'm trying to figure out how to hook it up to my skidder. It's an 84 timberjack 230a.
Can I just put a 'T' on both main hoses going into  and out of the hydraulic bank with quick disconnects? Then run a line to a valve from tractor supply I mount somewhere in the cab?

It makes sense to me, but I'm no hydraulic expert.

I'm also going to need some welding done for a hitch (removable).

Thanks guys!

[Knocker of rocks]

Can I just put a 'T' on both main hoses going into  and out of the hydraulic bank with quick disconnects? Then run a line to a valve from tractor supply I mount somewhere in the cab?

You'll lose some to all your flow to either bank when doing work, because the fluid will choose to follow the easiest path.  Your best be is either a selector valve so you are either loader or skidder, or plumb out of a Power Beyond port in your skidders main valve bank. 

Using the power beyond depending on your configuration could require three hoses: pressure from PB, return, and continuation of PB.  A selector could use just two, pressure and return, but your pressure release in the valve must be appropriately sized for the pressure and volume of your machine.  You will also lose the ability to use loader and skidder hydraulics simultaneously.

[Sunrise Farms]

Ok, so I just looked at it. The two main hoses go into the bank, then there are the three functions. At the end there is one large plug. I'm going to assume that is the power beyond port.
After that I'm unclear. Can I go from the power beyond, to the inlet of a new valve/bank, the the outlet go back to a 'T' in the return of the main valve bank?

Also, the trailer has an articulating hitch, so my new valve bank will need two levers/ functions. I'm assuming the one to run the loader will need a detent to stay on when I go to run the loader?

[oldseabee]

First, you have to find out if the main valve is machined to accept a  power beyond sleeve (basically a short pipe with an o ring on each end) behind that big plug. What the power beyond sleeve does is to block off the return to tank chamber in the main valve and send the return oil from the main valve to the next valve to make it work and then return to tank from the second valve, you will be able to use any function on either valve separately but not at the same time. you then have to disconnect the return to tank hose from the main valve and plug the port, then run a new hose from the return to tank port on the new valve to the tank. This will work if you have an open center system, not sure how it will do with a closed center system. you will have to have quick connects on the hoses from the trailer and keep them clean so you don't get any trash in the system.

[Sunrise Farms]

Here is a picture of the hydraulic bank:


The feed/ return are on the right. There is a plug looking thing above them, and a plug all the way to the left kinda in the dark.

[oldseabee]

I'll have to defer to one of the Timber Jack members on this valve, don't want to steer you wrong by not knowing whats in there. I know that on the Clark cable there is a steer and blade valve, if you add a grapple, you add a power beyond sleeve to the steer and blade valve, then route the oil to the grapple valve, add a return to tank line to the tank,plug the return to tank port on the steer and blade valve, plumb the grapple and go.

[bushmechanic]

Hello sunrise farms I don't know if you still have that 230D timberjack forwarder but the system you are looking to install on the skidder is the same on the forwarder. The pressure line leaves the pump and goes to the steering valve and from there out the power beyond to the loader valve behind the cab, then returns to the hydraulic tank. The only difference in the forwarder steering valve and the skidder valve is the absence of the winch control section. If you install a power beyond with quick connects you will have to join them together when only using the skidder by itself or the system will go into relief with the lines not joined up.

[timberlinetree]

Always thought the skidder/trailer thing was a good idea for some areas.

[Sunrise Farms]

Bushmechanic, yes I still have the forwarder for now. I bought this trailer to replace it though. The Detroit is just too loud, and there are certain places I just can't get with it. You have been very helpful to me over the years.

It sounds like in order to use the power beyond I need some special sleeve thing with an oring. Is this something a local parts store would have? Then go to the new valves, then return into the current return (after removing it from the original valves and plugging the port)?

[Jhenderson]

I haven't seen anyone ask the important question. How many gpm is the skidder hydraulic  system?  You'll need quite a bit more for a loader than for a cable machine and the pump is just the beginning.

[Sunrise Farms]

I don't know the specific gpm requirement of this trailer but it isn't much. It came with a power pac with a10 hp gas motor and a super tiny hydraulic pump. I'm certain the pump on the skidder is large enough.

[David-L]

Sunrise Farm, I have a trailer and would like to see your set up when you get it complete as I would like to do the same.. i am in petersham and travel through Colrain once and awhile. Theres a logger in Royalston mass with a 440B and a trailer and he says it works well for him. Good luck and hope to see this setup. Please pm me .

[Sunrise Farms]

I will let you know and post a picture. I bought it planning to buy a tractor to pull it, but figured I'd at least see how hard it was to get the skidder set up

[bushmechanic]

 The power beyond is a sleeve that lets the oil flow on downstream to the next valve as oldseabee has explained. I'm pretty sure the valve in the machine is a Cessna but not positive. You will have to get a hydraulics shop to get you a power beyond for that particular valve or out of an old forwarder steering valve. I think those Cessna valves were specfic to Timberjack and pricey to get parts for as you had to go to the dealer for them.

[Neilo]

My 230d just has a fourth valve added to the left of the winch valve. I am pretty sure it is a tj dozer valve.

But there are probably cheaper ways to do it apart from finding a dozer valve or two.

[Sunrise Farms]

Yes, it's a cessna valve. I talked to Francis Brown (local timberjack guru) on the phone yesterday. He said he could probably get it set up like a grapple skidder, but needed to think about it a like bit.

[Sunrise Farms]

Francis gave me the number to a hydraulic shop in nh, which basically said they dont make cessna stuff anymore so they can't get me a power beyond sleeve. They said the power beyond sleeve really only adds strength because that side of the body wasnt cast large enogh to take the pressure. Francis seemed to think you just kinda take the plug out and put a line on it. I'm sure he's rebuilt a hundred of these, but never been asked to really modify one.

I'm not sure what to do now.

The hydraulic shop suggested adding a three way valve before the cessna body, which would work, except I kinda need to be using the articulating hitch around the same time as the steering in the skidder (but I realize I can't use them at the EXACT same time)

If I remove the power beyond sleeve from my skidder, a machine shop should be able to make one?

I'm also thinking about ditching the articulating hitch and just going the three way valve route.

[bushmechanic]

  I'm sure your buddie is wrong on the strength idea and just adding the line won't work. Your skidder valve don't have a power beyond on it now but the forwarder valve do.  If you had to get one machined just remove it from the forwarder valve get it made and put it back. The selector valve would be simpler. I put a backhoe attachment on an S7 Hough skidder with a selector valve and that worked perfectly.

[Sunrise Farms]

I've been thinking about this for a few days now. Can I put the three way valve on the winch out port, and basically use the winch valve for power? A three way valve on that would be much easier to install and turn when needed, plus it shouldnt need another valve off to the side of the cab. Just go from the three way valve to the back of the machine ending in a female quick coupler. Then a house back to a T in the flow out of the winch valve section? Just pull the winch lever down to detent to send flow back to the trailer instead of the winch. Would I need a three way valve on the return also? I'm thinking not

[Neilo]

That winch circuit is only 450 or 550psi. And there are delay popets for the release of pressure. Just for you to consider.

As I said, I have an extra dozer valve added to do what you are describing.

[Sunrise Farms]

An extra valve section would work great, but I have no way of getting one. Looking at my forwarder, the valve section look similar as in the same brand, but they are different enough I doubt the power beyond sleeve isn't the same.

I suppose the only option is a selector valve before the whole valve unit.

Could I do what I was thinking with the selector valve on the blade instead? And just bungee cord it down when I need it for the trailer?

[thecfarm]

Seem like another member did what you are going to do. Those are not set up to go where a skidder can go.Load light and you might do ok. Seems like a good idea.

[bushmechanic]

 Your best bet is the selector valve. It's only one valve and the piping plus it will work without any extra performances like you are talking about, just move the valve lever one way for the machine and the other way for the trailer. It is put before the steering/dozer/winch valve the one line to the pressure port of the steering/dozer/winch the the other line out of the selector valve will go to the pressure port of the trailer loader valve. The return can T into a return line on the skidder as there is no pressure on it.

[Sunrise Farms]

I purchased a selector valve, but it won't come until the end of the week or so. Then I'll have to get all the firings/ adapters figured out.

I'm thinking of putting it on the dozer blade in/ out. Only because it is easier to get at to plumb and operate the selector valve than the main in and outs.

Thanks guys!

[Sunrise Farms]

I'm also thinking that with the selector valve on the dozer section I can use another selector valve to run the articulating hitch with the dozer lever while still being able to use the skidder steering while driving.

[gump]

 

 
I ran a trailer & loader behind my skidder and all I did was add a flow divider ( thats what I call it anyway). It is mounted on the back side of my skidder valve bank dash! Essentially the line from my pump goes to the flow divider where depending on which the position the plunger is in it sends the oil to my Skidder valve bank or my loader valve bank. I have no options, it is either one or the other. when I pull up to a pile of wood, I articulate my skidder because I stand on the rear fender to run the loader, and pull the divider in the "loader" position. jump up on my "loading station" and load up. Once completed, I push the plunger back down to give me hydraulics to the skidded & away I go. I also have a flow control valve in the system for the loader that once I had it set to the flow I needed never touched it again.
I haven't used my skidded & trailer for many years now, and just now I am getting things geared up to put it to work again! Not sure if this helps. I can take a few more pics if needed.


 

If you look at the pics in my gallery you will see what I mean about where I run my loader from.

[Sunrise Farms]

Thanks a lot Gump!

I got my selector valve in the mail today, and will give plumbing it a shot in the next day or two.

What do people think about plumbing it into the dozer section instead so I can use the articulating hitch while driving? I'll have to secure the lever with a bungee cord while using the loader though.

Maybe I'll plumb this one into the main feed to run the loader, then get another one to run the articulating hitch behind the dozer section.

I'll let you guys know how I make out.

[snowstorm]

Thanks a lot Gump!

I got my selector valve in the mail today, and will give plumbing it a shot in the next day or two.

What do people think about plumbing it into the dozer section instead so I can use the articulating hitch while driving? I'll have to secure the lever with a bungee cord while using the loader though.

Maybe I'll plumb this one into the main feed to run the loader, then get another one to run the articulating hitch behind the dozer section.

I'll let you guys know how I make out.

why would you do it this way??? a power beyond is the best way and a diverter valve 2th best. a diverter would divert oil from the pump to the trailer valve bank or the skidder valve bank but not bolth at the same time. putting a diverter from the blade valve might sorta work but i dont think you will be happy with it. the lever would have to be held open

[Neilo]

Stroker-Ace bought a 209 with a similar set up to what you are now talking about. Have a look at his photos in his gallery or his thread on the 209. I don't know how it worked on that machine though...

Neilo

[Sunrise Farms]

Hey guys, it's been a little bit but I finally plumbed everything up on the skidder and gave it a test run.

It seems to have too much restriction on the grapple and rotate function (they are only 1/4 or 3/8 lines) and it bogs the motor down terribly. Reving up doesn't help. I think the pump is flowing faster than those long little lines can take. Everything else seemed to work great, but I don't know if there is even some restriction on those lines too which may cause premature pump failure.

From the selector valve back I ran 1/2 hose, and 1/2 back to the return.

[Sunrise Farms]

I'm wondering where the pressure relief valve is in the timberjack system. If it's built into the valve bank and I bypass  it, Id have to add a pressure relief between my feed and return, correct?

[svart ole]

Stop right now and figure this out. If the problem is only one function on the loader then look at that part of the circuit. What ever the problem is bad things can happen. Sounds like you have a restriction in the system. Your return line should be larger than the supply line to give unrestricted flow and return direct to tank if you can. That said it should not cause a problem of this magnitude. Now for a question that may sound silly but you need to find out if the valve on the loader is closed or open center. Depending on what they ran that with originally it may have had a pressure compensating pump on it and you are looking at a closed center system. If you do it is not going to play well with your skidder. Trust me it can happen. If that is not the case check for bad hoses the plumbing on the selector valve and other points where you may have restrictions. When you put oil to the system and the engine bogs watch lines as when they are under high pressure they will become ridged or stiff. Be very careful as you may be developing some VERY HIGH pressures in the system. That is why I say stop right now and figure this out.

[Sunrise Farms]

I know there is nothing wrong with the whole loader end of the system. The second I thought stuff was weird I just shut it off and disconnected the skidder. I hooked my dad's tractor up and it ran fine to pack it back up. Played with it some, runs fine on the tractor with 1/2" feed and 1/2" return.

[svart ole]

I assume that is a Farmi/Valby loader on that. What model is it

[Sunrise Farms]

It's a primero. I believe it's a 3351 off the top of my head

[svart ole]

Can not fine any info on that model. Here is a manual on one of the farmi "cranes". Most of them are very much alike. At one time I had a PATU and it had the same option as called out in this manual. See page 15 "connection to a closed center hydraulic system". Tractors come in both flavors open and closed. If it works on the tractor and not the skidder, I smell a rat.

LONG LINK

[Sunrise Farms]

Ok. Ilooked in my manual and it describes how to set it up for closed/ open center.

I looked up the kubota and it is supposed to open center. I'm not sure everything is really perfect here either because the handle for the remote hydraulics has to be bungeed down or the detent will pop off any time you use something. No weird noises / struggles/ hiccups otherwise.

Can someone tell me if timberjacks are closed or open center?

Im hoping they are both the same because I want the trailer to be easily used by the tractor or skidder. (Sometimes the tractor is at the hayfields or a jobsite for weeks at a time, otherwise I'd just use the tractor)

[svart ole]

Sunrise,

I sent you a PM.