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General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: BargeMonkey on October 20, 2018, 12:49:35 AM

Title: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on October 20, 2018, 12:49:35 AM
Full tree is great when it doesnt rain for 80 out of 93 days, ruts I need an excavator to fix. I've got a pile of my own wood bought, got approached to go cut for a buyer making fairly good money, supposedly doing a big cut for a solar farm semi-local. The timing wasnt right on that big processor I looked at last yr and honestly at 11'4" wide it was way to big. I've only ever seen 1x 4roller around here, from what I see the parts are around, but will it handle a steady diet of 16-20" hardwood and hemlock ? 
 Sitting at Pat's in the UP, same engine as my 425, about 7k hrs. 
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34634/img_281029.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1540008483)
 

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Strictly to walk behind the buncher, go cut for 2-3 days, process and have the forwarder follow me. Are the 4 rollers that hard on hoses ? Down the road is the 2 roller conversion worth it ? 
 Ponsse took this in on trade, said it's very clean and just over 6k hours. H8 head which I dont have a clue about ? Will a dangle walk away from that 4 roller ? More money than I want to spend but wondering if it's worth it. Hows ponsse for parts ? 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34634/img_28729.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1540007120)
 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on October 20, 2018, 06:24:54 AM
Got nothing but watching and looking forward to responses.  From what I've heard the Ponsse support is phenomenal.  Curious as to the members responses.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on October 20, 2018, 07:02:51 AM
No comment on Ponsse other then they are proud of everything. An H8 is a larger head then the Fabtek 2000, delimb should be roughly the same with the 2000 being ahead on parts prices. All the parts we ever had to find for our 4 roller were available from sources, take the computer they are dirt cheap how's 3500 4000 sound vs a whole control system? If a computer goes south on one you can still run the head because the head has no electronics all that's out there is diameter, roller length, independent length, and the bar return sensor. If you really want something that's going to go for bigger wood say up to 24" you'll need a larger head like a 622 something like that you can get different knives for the application like grapple style knife to make it easy to handle stems bunched in piles.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: wannaergo on October 20, 2018, 08:33:18 AM
I'm going to give a slightly different opinion than skeans. Depending on how new the ponsse head is, it would walk all over the fabtek head. Not only will it be faster and more powerful, the hose consumption will be significantly less.   I also think the H8 is better than a waratah. I watched a couple 622s, and my H8 is definitely a better head.  If it says anything,  a local company here just traded a John deere 859 with a 622 in on a scorpion with an H7, because their h7 heads perform better than the 622.  Also, ponsse support here is second to none. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 20, 2018, 10:54:17 AM
That H8 will walk all over a 4 roller head and consume less hoses in the process. If cutting behind a buncher change out the upper knives to the ones that are designed for picking wood up off the ground. What little time I have thru a 4 roller was painfully slow and picking off the ground was a pain, the dangle head is super quick to pick with and is quick to process. Local guy was a 4 roller/2 roller fan boy forever but recently went to a Ponsse Scorpion with H7 and is on cloud nine, says he cant believe he waited so long. As for parts Ponsse would have everything for that head you could ever need.

As for buying from Pats equipment I would be cautious. He buys bank repos and auction gems and slaps paint on them and calls them woods ready. His lot of 25 minutes from my house and I stop in there when I'm bored and most of the stuff there makes the old junk I run look like new lol. Tried out a timbco/4 roller he had few years back and it was garbage, ran a buncher he sold it was garbage, etc.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 20, 2018, 01:30:02 PM
Dangle head versus fixed is like "dangle" grapple (like a fowarder) versus a fixed grapple on an excavator. Which would you rather pile wood with?😁 Barge, I think that old equipment is for folks that don't want to work themselves to death. You don't seem to have an issue with that, you might as well get some iron that can keep up with you😉 Ponsse has lots of machines working in the UP cutting hardwood, the Ergo 8w with an H8 head is a popular combo. I know of another outfit in North Georgia that is cutting exclusively monster hardwood with a Ponsse Bear with an H8. If you have the markets the machines will definitely do their part.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Corley5 on October 20, 2018, 02:17:41 PM
I'd be leery of any used harvesters.  They're being sold for a reason.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on October 20, 2018, 02:23:40 PM

QuoteDangle head versus fixed is like "dangle" grapple (like a fowarder) versus a fixed grapple on an excavator. Which would you rather pile wood with?😁 Barge
Can you expand on that for us noobs that dont know running a dangle from a dingleberry hone?    Which would you rather pile wood with and why? I have no experience and cant even guess at the strengths and weaknesses of either.  


A 4 roller looks like its just a pair of chain driven hubs on walking beams mated to a 2 roller arm set.  Does this help it walk over big limb flares and irregular shapes?  Where is the strength and weakness in 2 roller vs 4 roller?   What makes a 4 roller eat more hose.. Do they get caught in the works or something?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 20, 2018, 03:39:11 PM
What makes a fabtek 4 roller a hose eater is all of the valves for each head function are on the machine with long hoses running the length of the boom and out into the head. So at the boom/head knuckle there is a lot of exposed hoses so they tend to get caught on things.

Where as that Ponsse head has a pressure, return, case drain, and computer cable running to it.

As for a dangle vs fixed the dangle is faster and more nimble. If you need muscle to force things a fixed head is the way to go. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on October 20, 2018, 03:45:42 PM
Huh? Our 653 with a Fabtek was all pipes down the boom and stick same with the 490's I've seen out here. As to the speed there was motor options on them, from what I remember the ones back there got the high torque low speed for the 8' wood.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 20, 2018, 06:04:13 PM
Yes pipes down the boom hoses at all the pivot points. That adds a lot of hoses exposed out on the boom and head.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 20, 2018, 07:39:56 PM
Mike, what I meant by that is the grapple on a wood loader, be it a forwarder, a landing loader, or a truck loader (or mill yard loaders for that matter) are all hung off a loose pivot, so they dangle and swing freely. You can get excavator grapple attachments that have a rigid connection, they look very cumbersome in comparison. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Southside on October 20, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Yes - 4 rollers eat hoses, just so many running together that they rub, snag, and do everything else to become inconvenient fluid change opportunities.   
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Ken on October 21, 2018, 06:15:22 AM
Although I have no experience with a fixed head I've had experience with both 2 roller and 4 roller dangle heads.  Personally I find the 2 roller heads are easier to work in hardwood. 

Quote from: Corley5 on October 20, 2018, 02:17:41 PM
I'd be leery of any used harvesters.  They're being sold for a reason.  
I had a wise old logger tell me one time if I could afford to run old I could afford to run new.  The first harvester I bought was used and it would have ruined me if I didn't get rid of it.  As long as there is enough work to do new in nice
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Riwaka on October 21, 2018, 07:52:38 AM
Is this selective or clearcut or both?
Buying extremely used  is always a lottery.
How many use a processing head on either a tracked or wheeled machine  to fell and cut to length and stack for the forwarder?
or is the terrain too steep in places?

Buffalo dual (processing head is a bit small)  harwarder (harvester/ forwarder)
Ponsse Buffalo Dual - How to transform the loading area from a forwarder to a harvester - YouTube (https://youtu.be/m8u897vz8G8)

Looking through the listings there was a cat tk 711 and the TC 822 11k hr both logmax 7000 heads. Most places are 50 percent of the cost of a new head to refurbish a looked after old head with new drive motors etc. Main thing is to check is the availability of spares (machine/ head) and not just a salesman word that there are parts somewhere.

Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: leeroyjd on October 21, 2018, 10:48:31 AM
How 'bout the learning curve? I heard that it can be a while on a dangle head. I know first hand my Fabtek 4 roller fixed head was easy to learn, never tried a dangle head.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 21, 2018, 01:36:02 PM
I was used to running excavators, forwarders, loaders, etc and didn't find the learning curve on the dangle head that bad especially if you were processing bunched wood and not felling. Start with the controls slowed down and get comfortable with it then adjust faster as you go.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 21, 2018, 03:05:09 PM
I think having hand falling experience also makes a dangle head much easier to learn. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Riwaka on October 21, 2018, 05:35:52 PM
Eltec (Element technology) have started making production levelling track machines after 3 years development. 
Similar to the Timberpro track leveller, but Eltec appears to keep the diesel tank up high. 
Eltec - cummins engine, linde pumps, rexroth track drives.(fairly widely used parts/ components)
tilt angles - 22 degrees forward, 18 deg side, 8 deg rear.
Downside - eltec have not made too many machines yet, could be a case of FIY - fix it yourself. (Though every new machine maker usually starts small)
An eltec leveller with a ponsse H8 head could make the old timbco leveller fbuncher a backup machine. (If the forwarder goes down, pull delimbed log length with the skidder and process on the landing)  (Probably do similar with a mythical good condition depreciated used levelling tigercat harvester/ processor if the cost of a brand new machine is too high)

H8 on ponsse bear
Ponsse H8 | On Ponsse Bear - YouTube (https://youtu.be/g2-w8OhB1s0)



























Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Corley5 on October 21, 2018, 07:13:13 PM
Buy a new one and keep trading it in before the warranty expires.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on October 22, 2018, 01:52:51 AM
New is way out of my reach for a while, I dont trust the wood markets or bid on enough softwood to throw down but trying to avoid junk, I'm going to keep looking, been wanting to drive to the UP for a while. Anything I buy with a dangle head would need to have a heal fabricated, I'm constantly moving myself with the head on my buncher now. Just looking for reliable, I see so many 4 rollers out there but only ever seen 1 work here local, it was a ragged looking 490D but it put wood out. 
I talked to Kip before I looked at that other TK, he had a sister to it with a newer head, said 21k hrs and I wanted no part of that. 5-7khrs i dont view as bad if it hasnt been beaten on, alot of our iron has 10-12k hrs and regular maintenance goes a long ways. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Firewoodjoe on October 22, 2018, 05:02:16 AM
U need to find a row pine producer. Then tell him you will buy his machine when he's ready for a new one. When time allows buy a new head. The carriers seem to last it's the head guys around here have trouble with. One local company (pine) says the heads are giving trouble around 10k. Buy the way I've never ran one😊
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 22, 2018, 09:21:03 AM
First ponsse machine I ran had 23k hours and in a 40 hour week the machine was up and running 36+ hours. Second machine I ran was owned and operated previous by an OCD guy who was meticulous about things, it had 18k hours and ran 40 out of 40 hours. Third machine had 9.5k hours and was lucky to run 28 out of 40 hours and came from a strictly softwood contractor. Moral of the story it all comes down to previous owners and how they treated and maintained it. 

If your processing bunched wood I don't see the need for a heal because you won't have to be tracking all over like the buncher going tree to tree. Processor just goes down your row of bundles.

Lots of 4 rollers for sale because guys are trading up to dangle head machines. In the last 3 years I know of 5 or 6 local guys who ditched the fixed head machines and went dangle.

Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on October 22, 2018, 09:58:21 AM
Is it just because the fixed head cant produce what the dangle can?  How often (if at all) does a fixed head machine get taken over by too big of a stem and not a fast enough release?  Is a dangle more efficient at ground picking .. Better dexterity in the wrist maybe?  Further range of motion so the carrier can stay in place more vs repositioning for a grab?  



Regarding the 4 roller eating hoses, it doesnt appear to me that a 4 roller has to have any more than a 2 roller if the secondary rollers are slaved to the primary set by chain like that one pictured.  Is the hose eating perhaps a consequence of a manufacturer putting the control valve on the car body instead of remotely solenoid actuating it on the head and not a direct result of how many rollers?  I wish there was a simulator app so i could play around with these things and see how they differ!

Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 22, 2018, 11:15:47 AM
What makes a "fabtek style" 2 or 4 roller head a hose eater is the valves being on the carrier and not solinoid mounted on the head.

In my experience dangle heads are generally faster because of a combo of things. Most are on a carrier with a squirt boom for increased reach so you can process more without moving the machine. Generally a lighter head and boom so movements are quicker. The head can rotate around a tree for double and triple cutting without moving the machine also can rotate and fell trees in pretty much any direction relative to the machine. When crooked hardwood goes thru a fixed head the entire tree has to twist and move as the head really doesnt, where the dangle head floats and follows the stem which seems faster. Also the dangle is more forgiving and self aligning to whatever you are trying to grab be it standing or laying.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Cub on October 22, 2018, 01:14:05 PM
Might be a silly question but why follow a buncher with a harvester? Can't you just use the harvester to cut the tree down cut to length and make nice piles for the forwarder to pick up? Logs in one pile pulp in the other? That's the way 99% of guys around here do it? 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Southside on October 22, 2018, 02:24:15 PM
Much faster having the buncher in front of the processor, especially when dealing with small stuff mixed in.  I also found that the buncher did a better job with getting oversized stuff where I want it. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on October 22, 2018, 03:12:51 PM
A lot of local guys have found that even though they produce more with the bunchers out in front the increase isn't enough to justify the operator, fuel, payments, maintance, insurance, transportation, etc of that 3rd machine on the job. Some still do it but many have went to just a processor/forwarder setup.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 22, 2018, 04:08:30 PM
One of our processor contractors tuns a buncher in front of his processors in the winter on clearcuts. It's a lot easier on the processor when the wood is prefelled, less bent bars, thrown chains, and hoses tore up. The increased production easily offsets the added cost in some situations. They were on one large aspen clearcut last winter, it was really big clean wood. 2 processors, I don't know how long of day they put in (probably 12 hours) 450 cords of wood processed! It was huge aspen, they said that some of it was around 30" on the butts, 9-10 sticks  I wasn't there personally but don't doubt them, when they tell me they cut 125 cords I pick it up and it's spot on. Don't get me wrong, this isn't typical production- the stars were aligned for that day😊 150 to 175 cords per processor is fairly typical though, in wood that would usually be 100-125 without the buncher (with a lot more maintenance).
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on October 22, 2018, 08:10:49 PM
So in that case we are talking about a circle saw fixed head buncher laying wood down for a ..  Dangle head processor? Are both machines on tracked or wheeled carrier?  Is the buncher spreading the logs out or piling them in clumps? 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BurkettvilleBob on October 22, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
This has no real bearing on the topic, but I was looking over a 4 roller head the other day and the places that thing had been broken were ridiculous.  It was hard to find a a spot that hadn't been broken, welded and was cracked again. I can only assume it had  a pile of wood run though it.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 22, 2018, 09:31:06 PM
Mike, that's a tracked feller with a circle hot saw laying the wood in bunches for rubber tire dangle head processors (Ponsse Ergos, one 8 wheel and one 6 wheel both with H7 heads). The heads have special knives for picking stems out of the piles. 
   Bob, all processor heads take a beating. However, a lot is dependent on the operator, and the wood. Our machines break a lot more stuff when we get into hardwood. Crooked stems and big limbs take their toll. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: snowstorm on October 22, 2018, 10:01:20 PM
i can see putting wood on the ground with a hot saw if you have brush to deal with. but bardge has a bar chain head. i would buy a used head and put on the timco he has. and it would be a dangle
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Southside on October 22, 2018, 10:06:35 PM
You are right -the advantage is with the hot saw.  Around here when you say buncher, nobody would ever think of a bar saw, so I was thinking of the speed a disc gives you.  I have tried to cut brushy, narly stuff with the bar saw on my 4 roller - it pinches, binds, and causes all kinds of issues - with the buncher it just goes "zing".
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Riwaka on October 22, 2018, 10:14:01 PM
disc saw (quadco) FB etc usually have the wrong boom geometry to put dangle heads on them.
Do any swamp loggers use processors on hardwood? or does the mud ruin them? Does a saw bunk last longer in muddy hardwood?

I wonder if a West Coast BC trip would be an alternative to the UP trip?
e.g Axis are making their own head and electronics, write the field service manuals to fix it yourself. After 7 years fixing and making parts for the waratah 622b heads etc , axis have the rebel x25 (could be termed a 622b evolution plus, slightly heavier than the 622b ) to correct the repetitive faults of the 622b design with stronger rams etc.

Axis forestry
Axis Forestry - Rebuilt Waratah & New Rebel CTL Heads - YouTube (https://youtu.be/PjUC0gJgM3c)

Axis forestry electronics - wiring that can work in the cold, easy changeout components.etc
CYPRESS ROBOTICS - Taking over the world, one processor at a time. (http://cypressrobotics.ca/#hero)

Your Axis Forestry Rebel x25 dealer for Michigan, Wisconsin & Minnesota - AXIS FORESTRY DEALER FOR MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN & MINNESOTA (http://www.redpinectl.com/rebel-x25.html)
rebel x25 intro
Axis Forestry at the CNRE 2017 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ckaETg8EpmI)      


4 wheel skidder BC on the wet hills- ecotracks front and rear
Logging and Sawmilling Journal December/January 2012 - Eco-Wheel Tracks deliver traction on B.C.?s steep slopes (http://forestnet.com/LSJissues/Jan_12/Eco_wheel.php)

Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Cub on October 22, 2018, 11:04:09 PM
I was thinking that having the expense (operator,Ins,payment,fuel,maintenance,etc) of a 3rd machine on the job wouldn't pay but if you get an extra 50 cord a day in the right wood I guess it would pay. I suppose everything has to align to get that though. I personally wouldn't want the extra. But I'm a 1 man show with saws and an old forwarder. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on October 23, 2018, 09:55:11 AM
Quote from: BurkettvilleBob on October 22, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
....was looking over a 4 roller head...  was hard to find a a spot that hadn't been broken, welded and was cracked again.
Some fault may lay with the weldor in that scenario.  If the heads are made from a high chrome alloy or some type of wear/abrasion resistant material they will not tolerate a hot multipass weld getting laid right onto stone cold plate, especially in winter.  Itll be chasing cracks thereafter.



Not a completely comparable example but i was repairing very high carbon Labounty shear knives that had been cold welded by a "just trust me" weldor.  Huge chunks would tear out and it would just gum the metal without severing.

  No matter how deep i chased those cracks or how many hours of preheat, postheat, interpass heat, interpass peening.. It didnt matter. My edge stayed sharp even after it chunked off and landed on the ground.  The stress was in there forever from the last guy.  Maintaining these very expensive knives became a fools errand. 





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Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Mike_M on October 23, 2018, 07:43:06 PM
I shopped for a while before I found our TJ 608. It had an older TJ 762C dangle head on it and we knew the head would need lots of work or replaced. The base machine had about 6800 hours on it and was taken care of so we felt pretty good about it. You always take the risk of something going wrong when buying used, but so far no major problems. Our machine spends half its time cutting trees and the other half sitting on the landing processing out of a pile. We don't cut enough volume to justify a buncher yet, so we hand cut and use our processor when size and terrain allow. When we were looking for a replacement head I wanted something that had good service and support. In our area that was Waratah and the reason we went with a 622B. So far it has met our expectations and with the addition of a top saw I wondered how I ever used a processor without one. The head is pretty easy to operate and doesn't take long to get comfortable with. My 18 year old son recently started running it and picked right up on not just processing on the landing but cutting trees. He hasn't even bent a bar yet. Like everyone else I would love to have new iron, but we aren't at a place to buy new. I think if you look around and take your time you can find good used equipment.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on October 23, 2018, 10:27:26 PM
Is swapping out the buncher head on his timbco for a processor head not an option?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on October 23, 2018, 11:59:17 PM
I remember Barge looking into that at one time, I think maybe his particular machine doesn't have  enough hydraulic flow.
  Mike M, it sounds like you found a sysem that works for you. The problem with the new (or newer) iron is the amount of wood you have to move.  Just one of our CTL crews will typically move 3-400 cords a week, that's a lot of wood to find a home for.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on October 24, 2018, 06:49:36 AM
@ 400 cord a week I'm only going to work 3 months a yr 🤣 The volume you guys must cut is crazy. My Timbco lacks the HP to run a Rolley2 or a big hotsaw, it can run a dangle or 4 roller. I would rather stare at an extra machine on the job than deal with more employees. Been haggling on a low hr nice 450J and that's going to come first I think. 
 Anyone have a "Timberheads", out of WI ? looks like an FT240, it looked pretty rugged. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Corley5 on October 24, 2018, 09:06:05 PM
I've got just what you need :)  I'll make you a heckuva deal and the Forestry Forum will get it's cut 8)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/002~11.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1540428962)



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Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Southside on October 24, 2018, 09:09:59 PM
I am not buying Corley5 - but what are you asking?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on October 24, 2018, 09:40:15 PM
Heck I've got a ton of spare parts and two heads I need to get rid of.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Corley5 on October 24, 2018, 10:22:07 PM
I know what I'd like to get out of it ;) ;D  But a realistic price :-\  Well...  It has a BRAND NEW Kawasaki hydraulic pump.  Hasn't cut a tree since it was installed.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Riwaka on October 24, 2018, 11:07:57 PM
After the 450J , might find a tier 3 650J XLT and chip to 115hp or more, tow a bit bigger log.
650J Deere pulling logs in Southern WV - YouTube (https://youtu.be/0l4asqUtEQg)
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Corley5 on October 25, 2018, 08:46:50 AM
I see Pat's in Da UP has a similar machine that they're asking 79,900 for.  I'd sell this one for less than that....
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Mike_M on October 29, 2018, 08:34:47 PM
That's a real nice Fabtek. My dad had a JD 490 Fabtek conversion with a 4- roller head, used it with a forwarder until the mills started cutting the short log pricing in the late 90's.
    Our biggest struggle is we log a variety of stand sizes. both clear-cuts and thinning operations. Its tough to have just the right machines when your a small operation that is so diversified, but we manage to make it work. Right now we are thinning 100 acres of what would be best logged with a cut to length machinery, but are processing most of it on the landing. 
    Having machinery with some flexibility helps us a lot. When the ground isn't too steep we can use the processor to cut with. Our dozer is used to cat log on the steeper ground and our grapple skidder is used most of the time when its not too wet. In the near future we are planning on adding a larger log loader with double drums to skyline short distances and then use it to shovel log and load trucks.
     Its always interesting to see how other people our making things work for them.

Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Cub on October 29, 2018, 08:47:17 PM
Sure is a nice fabtek machine there Corley. If I had enough work lined up for that and had the cash flow for it i would have it on it's way here!! I've always wanted 1 of those. Hopefully someday. Until then I'll keep running the Stihl's. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on October 29, 2018, 09:54:26 PM
Quote from: Mike_M on October 29, 2018, 08:34:47 PM
That's a real nice Fabtek. My dad had a JD 490 Fabtek conversion with a 4- roller head, used it with a forwarder until the mills started cutting the short log pricing in the late 90's.
   Our biggest struggle is we log a variety of stand sizes. both clear-cuts and thinning operations. Its tough to have just the right machines when your a small operation that is so diversified, but we manage to make it work. Right now we are thinning 100 acres of what would be best logged with a cut to length machinery, but are processing most of it on the landing.
   Having machinery with some flexibility helps us a lot. When the ground isn't too steep we can use the processor to cut with. Our dozer is used to cat log on the steeper ground and our grapple skidder is used most of the time when its not too wet. In the near future we are planning on adding a larger log loader with double drums to skyline short distances and then use it to shovel log and load trucks.
    Its always interesting to see how other people our making things work for them.
Mike for years we used a 4 roller doing exactly that for years before getting a forwarder, now we're long log thinning with a forwarder and dangle head.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: CTL logger on November 17, 2018, 09:06:52 PM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22200/20181009_165937.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540398125)


Updated my old Rolly 2 to the improved Rolly 3. Old head had close to 20000 hrs on it. Had the new one a few weeks now it definitely takes limbs off better they put a new style top knife on them. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on November 18, 2018, 01:25:33 AM
Woodland must love you 😂 One of the guys in a small group I'm in on FB has the 3 running behind a hotsaw and puts quite a pile out. The problem here with Rolly or even Timberpro is parts and service, im not close enough to CJ's, Anderson can get parts but they have to be shipped from Maine because of dealer territory. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: CTL logger on November 18, 2018, 06:56:39 AM
Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 18, 2018, 01:25:33 AM
Woodland must love you 😂 One of the guys in a small group I'm in on FB has the 3 running behind a hotsaw and puts quite a pile out. The problem here with Rolly or even Timberpro is parts and service, im not close enough to CJ's, Anderson can get parts but they have to be shipped from Maine because of dealer territory.

I feel your pain on dealer support my Timberpro dealer is 100 miles away, Woodlands 800 miles from me I asked 2 dealers for prices on heads never called me back. Pretty bad you have to beg someone to spend a couple hundred thousand dollars. Woodlands support is great I can usually have parts in hand next morning. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: snowstorm on November 18, 2018, 09:00:33 AM
around here i have 2 choices for international truck dealers for parts. the big one in bangor that isnt likely to have much for a 10 yr old truck or the one a bit further east. they know ih inside and out stock a lot of parts. but George can be a bit ornery. i sent my boy there to get a brake valve . i told him to be polite or george would make him cry. i have seen it happen there before. if he likes you your all set if he dosent they dont come back. i have got parts from him that the other dealer couldnt even find a listing for. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on November 18, 2018, 06:32:44 PM
I wonder if you know my uncle charlie.  If its still open anyway, he was the starter and alternator guy on 1A in ellsworth.  May have sold it to partner by now, not sure. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: snowstorm on November 18, 2018, 07:05:54 PM
dont know him
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chep on November 18, 2018, 09:14:34 PM
Barge

We are full ctl in southern and central vt. 6 full time crews running
We have 7 rottne forwarders. 4 cat/fabtek 501 harvesters, 2 barko harvesters and 1 rottne h20 6 wheel harvester. If you ever want to see any particular iron in action let me know and we can set it up.
Cheers
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on November 18, 2018, 09:33:09 PM
Quote from: chep on November 18, 2018, 09:14:34 PM
Barge

We are full ctl in southern and central vt. 6 full time crews running
We have 7 rottne forwarders. 4 cat/fabtek 501 harvesters, 2 barko harvesters and 1 rottne h20 6 wheel harvester. If you ever want to see any particular iron in action let me know and we can set it up.
Cheers
@Chep,
What is the favorite harvester?  Can the h20 handle hardwoods (oaks?).   
Thanks
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chep on November 18, 2018, 11:15:40 PM
Luckily I still run a chainsaw! No hose jockeying for me... i get to cut the oversize, the cream and the steep banks...

The h20 is super impressive and can move some huge sticks of wood around. It's got the sp head on it . I think it's a 7000

I am working around a 501 right now with a brand new sp 661 head with a topsaw (first in n. America) that's been very cool to see also.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on November 18, 2018, 11:49:50 PM
Quote from: chep on November 18, 2018, 09:14:34 PM
Barge

We are full ctl in southern and central vt. 6 full time crews running
We have 7 rottne forwarders. 4 cat/fabtek 501 harvesters, 2 barko harvesters and 1 rottne h20 6 wheel harvester. If you ever want to see any particular iron in action let me know and we can set it up.
Cheers
That's awesome and I greatly appreciate the offer. 👍👍👍  As much as I want to throw down on a newer dangle head on a used carrier it's not going to happen, more than likely be a 415/133/153 size machine with a 4 roller. The mud this yr has put a serious hurt on my iron budget 😂 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chep on November 19, 2018, 01:05:11 AM
We have harvesters from year 2001 to 2018 running. All dangle head 2 roller. No bunchers cutting ahead unless the job has really thick understory (only a few over the years). So they are all cutting off the stump with a steady diet of hardwood, hemlock, pine .
Like I said let me know and we will hook it up
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on November 19, 2018, 06:34:25 AM
Those SP heads are sure impressive, how's the feed speed on the 761?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: earache on December 07, 2018, 08:23:50 PM
I ran machine for a crew that had a hybrid CTL setup just like described. Timberjack 608 hotsaw laid all of the stems down. Then a processor went behind it and processed everything. Then a Ponsse 8 wheel forwarder picked it all up and decked it at the landing.
The first processor used was a TimberPro 630 with a Rolly fixed head. Impressive power with the fixed head, but very heavy, wasn't real fast, and broke a lot of stems and limbs because it was fixed head (constantly fighting the angle of everything).
Then that machine was traded in on another TimberPro 630 with a LogMaxx 7000 danglehead. Production went WAY up, was way easier on the machine, easier on the operator, and bunch piles were still real good.
Then that machine was traded in on a Ponsse danglehead and never looked back. Production went way up, again.
The dangleheads can have way more roller torque and roller speed than the fixed head. They have also gotten very good at following crooked stems and the measuring system is almost unbelievable it is so accurate. And, they can handle 20" stems and still measure well.
So, for this system, the dangle is the way to go.
For a one man operation doing small jobs on sensitive ground around a lot of obstacles, I pick the Fabtek over any other CTL platform.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 09, 2018, 09:09:49 PM
@earache (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42601) whereabouts are you?  wondering what sort of forest you guys were harvesting
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: earache on December 09, 2018, 09:22:28 PM
@nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) Northern Wisconsin.  We Cut Aspen clear cuts, marked northern hardwood (selective), pine, balsam, 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 11, 2018, 05:34:59 AM
Quote from: earache on December 09, 2018, 09:22:28 PM
@nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) Northern Wisconsin.  We Cut Aspen clear cuts, marked northern hardwood (selective), pine, balsam,
gotcha, still curious to see a new processor with a new danglehead in 20" oak.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: snowstorm on December 11, 2018, 05:58:33 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on December 11, 2018, 05:34:59 AM
Quote from: earache on December 09, 2018, 09:22:28 PM
@nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) Northern Wisconsin.  We Cut Aspen clear cuts, marked northern hardwood (selective), pine, balsam,
gotcha, still curious to see a new processor with a new danglehead in 20" oak.  
what would be so hard about that?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 11, 2018, 07:22:56 AM
Paying for it when the gremlins go on strike!
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on December 11, 2018, 08:07:55 AM
It's not that bad to work on the stuff especially the newer stuff, less wiring with self diagnosing computer between the harnesses.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chep on December 11, 2018, 08:35:27 AM
@nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)

20 inch oak doesn't slow down the dangle heads. The coolest part about a dangle is that the head can pivot around the tree. So they can make a face cut essentially,  then do wing cuts and back cut.  Once they get to the top I see them using the saw bar just like a chainsaw. Let go of the stem and kind of slash cut the crown down. Sometimes to whittle out some pulp, some times to just know it down. Hard to describe but not that technical in reality. A good OP can easily handle 20 inch oak all day long. The knives will take off up to 4 inch limbs. Sometimes a little trimming with a chainsaw is necc. On the landing  to smooth up logs. 
  Dangles can cut huge wood. It's just what they manage to do with it once it's on the ground is what makes the operator
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on December 11, 2018, 11:00:22 AM
When you get good with a dangle head the saw and boom become an extension of your arm. It is essentially a chainsaw on a stick so you can saw off limbs and tops when needed, turn the head around and feed backwards and buck at a fork or crotch, etc. Spin the head around and make a face cut, cut in from both sides a ways and then and cut/push from behind (all without moving the machine). We fed ours a steady diet of 20-25" hard maple all the time, cutting the occasional 32" tree when necessary.


Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 11, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
Yep, yep, and yep. We cut hardwood all the time. Hardwood is definitely harder on the heads, that's just the nature of bumpy knobby northern hardwood. But dangleheads handle it just fine.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: JLeBouton on December 11, 2018, 03:37:06 PM
There are also some modern fixed heads available that will give a dangle head a run for its money in hardwood.

JP Skidmore is building heavy duty, cutting edge fixed heads, and their subsidiary, FabTek LLC is re-manufacturing old four roller heads with upgraded frames, and converting them to two roller heads. Something to consider.

JP Skidmore Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/jpskidmorellc)

James LeBouton - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/leboutonj)

www.jpskidmorellc.com


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16830/47395245_1083710151800643_7179670209068793856_o.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544560292)
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on December 11, 2018, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: JLeBouton on December 11, 2018, 03:37:06 PM
There are also some modern fixed heads available that will give a dangle head a run for its money in hardwood.

JP Skidmore is building heavy duty, cutting edge fixed heads, and their subsidiary, FabTek LLC is re-manufacturing old four roller heads with upgraded frames, and converting them to two roller heads. Something to consider.

Update Your Browser | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/jpskidmorellc)

James LeBouton - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/leboutonj)

www.jpskidmorellc.com


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16830/47395245_1083710151800643_7179670209068793856_o.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544560292)

The cf22 and cf18 float now correct?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 11, 2018, 08:44:16 PM
Quote from: snowstorm on December 11, 2018, 05:58:33 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on December 11, 2018, 05:34:59 AM
Quote from: earache on December 09, 2018, 09:22:28 PM
@nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) Northern Wisconsin.  We Cut Aspen clear cuts, marked northern hardwood (selective), pine, balsam,
gotcha, still curious to see a new processor with a new danglehead in 20" oak.  
what would be so hard about that?
just getting somewhere where they run new dangleheads.  Southern boys are allergic apparently.  At least I can't find any here in va.  Now there are a few bells, neat machines, but I want to see a new JD or Ponsse or Rottne, etc in hardwoods.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 11, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
There is a Ponsse team in north Georgia cutting huge hardwood with a Ponsse Bear harvester.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 12, 2018, 05:36:28 AM
Quote from: barbender on December 11, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
There is a Ponsse team in north Georgia cutting huge hardwood with a Ponsse Bear harvester.
So I hear...hey maybe make a big road trip out of it and see yellowhammer at the same time.  That's about 600 miles from me.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on December 12, 2018, 05:47:45 AM
Just saw a 941 in MA, I know there's a 703 with a cf18 Skidmore head some where there on the east coast, what ever happened to all the Rottne guys there in PA?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: JLeBouton on December 12, 2018, 10:47:09 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 12, 2018, 05:47:45 AM
Just saw a 941 in MA, I know there's a 703 with a cf18 Skidmore head some where there on the east coast, what ever happened to all the Rottne guys there in PA?
It's actually two 753J with CF-20's. Madden Sustainable Forestry in Milford ME. They are the initial 4 roller heads with continuous rotation. The CF-18 is to be replaced with the new CF-19.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16830/IMG_20181212_094257.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544629585)
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 12, 2018, 01:02:05 PM
Are you the guy building thes jlebouton?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 12, 2018, 06:11:03 PM
North Georgia Ponsse Bear (dangle head) harvested hardwoods
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/Screenshot_20181212-114757_Messages.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544656055)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/20181212_115011.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544656027)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/20181212_114950.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544655989)
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 13, 2018, 05:38:34 AM
@barbender (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1286)  Thanks!  Yep, that is exactly the sort of wood I had in question.  Time for a call to Ponsse and a road trip to Georgia.  

Do you know if they are only clearcutting?  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 13, 2018, 05:39:54 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 12, 2018, 05:47:45 AM
Just saw a 941 in MA, I know there's a 703 with a cf18 Skidmore head some where there on the east coast, what ever happened to all the Rottne guys there in PA?
@skeans1 Seen the forwarders but not the processors.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: thecfarm on December 13, 2018, 05:46:46 AM
That is some big wood!!
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on December 13, 2018, 05:49:22 AM
A buddy went to OSU with a guy from back there around where Blondin was, last year he said they had just picked up a new set or two of the H21 with the sp761's on them. Ask @chep (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8183) he's from back in that area another offer is to come out here to look at the 1270 and the 415. But for the work you guys do a fixed head will be worlds ahead of a dangle just for the fact you have control, don't forget logmax has a 7000 sized fixed head that's made for a 24" log all day that floated like a dangle up and down a log.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 13, 2018, 01:07:59 PM
I never see wood like that on the trailers and i see quite a few trailers. I guess the plateau has just all been cut. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 13, 2018, 05:07:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that stuff would be exceptional anywhere, but there must be a bit of it down there because that crew is trying to specialize in monster hardwood and stay away from commercial SYP if at all possible. Trying to cut stuff no one wlse is, basically. Everbody and their brother is set up for cutting pine in Georgia. 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 13, 2018, 06:27:10 PM
Ive stalked about 300 acres of hardwood hollars and only encounter bign's either over steep bluffs, in the middle of swamp bottoms or at property edges where the boundary line is questionable.  Passovers. 

I did talk a logger hauling some nice walnut yesterday.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: earache on December 13, 2018, 08:52:57 PM
Nativewolf,
If you'd like, come to Wisconsin, you can watch all makes of harvesters running all species of wood, every day. Look me up if you make it over and I'll put you in contact with any of them.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: nativewolf on December 14, 2018, 08:27:08 AM
@earache (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42601) Thanks for the invite.  We've got to make plans either up to WI & MN or up to MI and Maine or over to OR/WA.  Sigh...everything a flight.  Heck even N GA is 600+ miles.  
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 14, 2018, 08:36:36 AM
Bah, i can do 600 on 2 pee breaks and a bag of apples with 3 staties trailing me the whole way 

;D
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on December 15, 2018, 10:09:07 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 14, 2018, 08:36:36 AMBah, i can do 600 on 2 pee breaks and a bag of apples with 3 staties trailing me the whole wa


Pee brakes are KEY!

Also, Mike, if the staties are trailing with their lights on, I think your supposed to pull over.  At least that's what I've been told;D 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Riwaka on December 15, 2018, 03:17:57 PM
Barbender was a bit of chainsaw felling involved in some of North Georgia larger trees?
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 15, 2018, 06:41:46 PM
I can't say for sure. The impression I was given was that all of it was machine cut, but some of those root flares are huge so I was wondering the same thing. I think an H8 head has around a 30" cutting capacity, but if you get creative with back and side cuts you can fall much larger diameter than that.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: Skeans1 on December 15, 2018, 07:46:56 PM
Quote from: barbender on December 15, 2018, 06:41:46 PM
I can't say for sure. The impression I was given was that all of it was machine cut, but some of those root flares are huge so I was wondering the same thing. I think an H8 head has around a 30" cutting capacity, but if you get creative with back and side cuts you can fall much larger diameter than that.
The H8 and the h415 like my 1270 has are the same sized head no way I'd be cutting 30" everyday with it. I'd bet that's all hand cut and bucked down to where you can handle it at 24 or 26 inch range.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: BargeMonkey on December 15, 2018, 07:48:24 PM
Some of that stuff is huge, the 24-30" stuff I believe. How many times do you risk a 500k dollar harvester cutting big stuff like that ? you've got no control, lose something that big and she comes for the cab it's over. 

 Saw this picture on FB, i guess they were fixing a tab on a bunk and decided this worked better than a hammer. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34634/48208587_2325677260985882_344533111024910336_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1544920705)
 
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: wannaergo on December 15, 2018, 08:42:52 PM
I think the H8 is slightly bigger than a 415. I cut some monster trees down with mine,  over 30". The only time it got dicey was when I couldn't actually get the feed wheels around the tree to ride up on I'd it needed a push.  If the head went on a tree, it got cut. The problems were more with processing than with felling.  The super huge trees were almost impossible to hold on to well enough to feed, so I would have to get the machine along side the trees to buck them off until they tapered down into something manageable.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: mike_belben on December 15, 2018, 09:57:44 PM
A chain and binder woulda probably pulled the tab back in.
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: barbender on December 15, 2018, 11:19:36 PM
There always has to be a party pooper like Mike😂
Title: Re: Parts and opinions for CTL iron.
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on December 16, 2018, 12:20:33 AM
Agreed felling the big stuff isn't that bad, as long you are trying to work with the natural lean. If trying to go against a hard lean you have to get brave with cutting, feeding up, pushing quickly. Or on occasion if i was feeling lazy get the forwarder to push while i cut lol.

Feeding and bucking can get tricky/ agravating on the big stuff if the head wants to slip off. I always carried a tape measure and can of paint so I could mark the big stuff for bucking.