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Standby generator

Started by petefrom bearswamp, March 29, 2017, 09:18:51 AM

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LeeB

I haven't really checked too deep into it, but the gasoline burners can be converted to propane. Hasanyone done this and what are your thoughts on it?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Chuck White

Pete, quite a few of the propane fired generators in this area.

One story I hear often is "the start-up is so quick, most times we don't even have to reset the clock on the microwave"!   ;D
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

petefrom bearswamp

Wow great responses.
I'm sure I can get by with a smaller setup, but generac units in smaller capacities dont use that much less fuel.
Not sure of all requirements for my needs. but i want to operate my well pump, 2 freezers,  3 fridges, 3 garage door openers, my outdoor boiler with all the circulator pumps for my baseboard heat, lights in the house and shop, TV, microwave, a small electric water heater in my shop, and a small electric heat unit in the shop bathroom.
Havent tried running my mini split AC yet, but maybe will be offset by not using the furnace.
My little guy wont run my hot tub, so a bigger unit would be nice. as would the automatic change over.
Generac has a calculator for sizing, I will go to that next.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

pineywoods

One potential gotcha for using propane..some propane suppliers will not fill tanks other than their own..They say liability concerns, but I think loss of tank rental/lease charges. My supplier refuses to fill the 30 gallon tank on my rv..which by the way powers a propane genset...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

WV Sawmiller

Chuck,

   Sorry to burst your bubble but most and I know my Guardian genset has a 10 second delay to avoid power flickering on and off. My clocks do go off in any outage.

   Good points on amount of fuel stored and associated costs but that is decision we all make. If you are using propane for cooking, hot water and/or clothes dryers not such a big issue as it will be used anyway but if only purpose is genset ... I admit I am spoined with natural gas I only pay for after I have used it.

   I filled 6- 5 gallon plastic gas cans a couple days ago for mower, ATV, mill, etc and cost over $82. If running a genest that might be 2-3 days constant use as I understand.

   There are plenty of places around here who provide propane to the public and just sell by the pound/gallon and don't restrict to their own bottles. The big suppliers may only fill their big tanks. It is something to consider and check.

Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

Pete, rather than calculating couldn't you just turn it all on and use a clamp-on ammeter?  Many units capture/record the highs and lows.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ljohnsaw

Timely thread.  I am off grid for my cabin.  I also have to have a hydrant (water pump) for my required fire sprinklers.  The system needs to run 10 minutes pumping 32 gpm at 35 psi. (or something very close to that).  The system will be dispensing 330 gallons of water in the event of a house fire.  So, I had planned on an inverter running the large pump (2hp) from my battery storage bank.  However, the building department is requiring a self-starting generator to be available should the batteries not be fully charged.

I was considering propane as it has a shelf life, unlike gas.  However, I'm up at 5,600' elevation and generators  (gas engines) are derated as you go up in elevation - correct?  The generator may be used to top off my batteries in prolonged cloudy days when the wind turbine doesn't keep up.  There will be no "standby" or "backup" use for this generator since all my lighting will be 12v and cooking / refrigeration will be propane.  There is no need for an ATS (no utility service).

I've also heard that a gas unit can be converted to propane - so just a matter of getting the right size in an auto start model?

Does a propane unit need to be fired weekly for any reason other than to know it works and to top off the starter battery?  I could see solar keeping that charged and when it is cloudy, it is typically very windy at my property - so never run?  A 2hp motor (at 240v) is drawing about 11 amps (IIRC).  How big of a generator would be necessary, keeping in mind my elevation?  Once I get that worked out, then sizing the propane tank.  I figure a 10 gallon would be sufficient - big enough for the required run but not so big as to tie up a lot of capital!  Plus, I can keep that stored/installed under the deck with my "kitchen" tank.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

pineywoods

There's another option nobody has mentioned. Lot's of chicken farmers around here. Most of them have a skid mounted genset of fairly large size, set up to run off a tractor pto. If you have a diesel tractor, most likely have a diesel tank handy. Fuel in it gets turned over frequently so no long term storage problem.. I bought a new 10 kw generator head for $300, intending to build a tractor pto drive train, somehow never got around to it ....yet....Most engine driven welders will also produce several kw of 110/220 ac power. Makes a good excuse for buying a welder..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

sawguy21

That would work if you don't mind leaving the tractor running for up to days at a time to provide power and you still need to frequently refuel. To answer ljohnsaw's question, the generator fires on a test cycle to ensure it starts and the systems are all functioning properly. The battery is kept up by a trickle charge supplied by the utility power.
The Generac Guardian and Briggs and Stratton standbys I am familiar with are not designed to be used as a backup for solar systems or as primary power sources. They need utility power and an ATS to function as designed, any other application will void the warranty. Most licensed electricians won't hook them up any other way due to liability concerns.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Onthesauk

Not sure if they are still available but a few years ago we bought one through Costco for the fire department.  Propane, big enough to run a three bay fire hall, automatic start up.  At the time I think with panel and installation was under $3,000.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

WV Sawmiller

Pete,

   I forgot to respond earlier but as to items to hook up, my 17KW unit came a power box with 3 - 220v amp breakers (I run my pump, oven and dryer off those which is all my 220 items), 3-15 amp 110v breakers and 3 - 20 amp 110v breakers which do both reefers, the dryer, computer, TVs, sewing room, kitchen, 3 of the bedrooms, etc. We have ours hooked to code and I have about 3/4 of the items in my house hooked up and left off the lower priority areas that are less used. Realistically I could have doubled up on several areas and run the whole house since we don't run everything at one time anyway with just me and my wife here most of the time. I am sure the larger units come with a larger switch box but we survive very comfortably with ours. Look at what you need and buy the size unit you need.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Kbeitz

All this talk got me looking on E-bay at the LP engines. Someone listed a
tar trailer for sale. In his postings he said that if it did not sale that he was
going to part it out. I sent him a message that I would be interested in the
LP Carburetor & Regulator. He ended the auction and put the Carburetor & Regulator up for sale. I got it for $45.00. So now I guess my generator will
be LP.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

sawguy21

 :D :D I don't think I know anybody that can top you for scrounging.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

LeeB

If converting from gasoline to LPG would the generator still be able to put out the same KW's?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Kbeitz

My generator is 5kw. I think if I tighten the spring on the gov.
that I will still get my 5kw after the conversion.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Ianab

Quote from: LeeB on March 30, 2017, 11:28:11 PM
If converting from gasoline to LPG would the generator still be able to put out the same KW's?

As long as the conversion is done right it should put out comparable power. Regular car engine conversions make about the same HP on LPG.

Methane (natural gas) burns with less energy, so converting an engine to that might drop you 20% or so.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

LeeB

I really like the idea of converting to dual fuel capacity as I have both fuels readily available. Any thoughts on or experiance with this product?

http://www.motorsnorkel.com/
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Chuck White

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 30, 2017, 09:39:02 AM
Chuck,

   Sorry to burst your bubble but most and I know my Guardian genset has a 10 second delay to avoid power flickering on and off. My clocks do go off in any outage.   

I don't know that from personal experience, I'm just saying what I've heard! 

Just sayin'!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

21incher

A couple of weeks ago we had a windstorm that took out power for many and Costco got in a truck load of 9k generators that could run on both propane and gas with no conversion. I thought it was a great idea so you do not have to worry about stale gas from sitting. It looked like you just had to turn a valve to switch and could use whichever fuel that you could find in a emergency. Plus the propane option will not kill people that do not run them in a safe location. :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Dave Shepard

I hate the thought of relying on a gasoline engine in an emergency. I'd go with propane if I already had the tank. Our just be done with the grid and go solar.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Ox

Many if not most of these gasoline engines don't have shutoff valves anymore.  This is the secret to keeping these engines running.  When putting them up for more than a few weeks, turn off the valve and run the carb dry.  They'll run again even with crappy old gas as long as that crappy old gas wasn't sitting in the carb.  Better yet, drain the whole system dry and just pull the engine over a few times every month or two.  And keep mice and critters out of it.  Lay bait blocks all around.
We certainly put up with a lot of crap just to have some tools and self sufficiency, don't we?
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

petefrom bearswamp

Bit the bullet and bought the 22kw Generac guardian
I got a discount of 87 bucks for sending a check vs credit card plus will be getting a 3100 pound pressure washer as a bonus. comes with a whole house 200 amp auto switch box
propane vs natural gas, natural at full load, 310 cu ft per hr, propane 140, half load 216 natural, 93.2 propane, plus output is 22kw propane and only 19,500 natural.
I will be installing myself with help from my retired NYS elec and gas friend for the electrical and another retired friend who was in the propane business. I plan to purchase the tank, not sure of size yet he will advise me and he can get me a tank at a discount.
As I understand it the propane supply has to be properly sized or the gen wont function well, 10-12" water column, starts at full load, 350,000 btu per suppied spec.
I went with this for the convenience, dam the expense.
My wife is 9 yrs younger and I should depart this mortal coil well before her and she wont have to worry about power outages which we seem to have several of every year.
other items it is recommended that the unit be shut down every 24 hrs of continuous operation I assume to let it cool some
I think I read that the test interval can be set longer if desired as can the switch time from utility to generator.
Here the power will attempt to come back on a few to several times before going off completely.  WV I dont know if 10 seconds delay will be enough.
also propane vs natural Im sure natural is substantially cheaper, but not an option in bear swamp.
I am excited to get the install done.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Ox

 8)  The piece of mind will be worth it. 
Shut down for how long after 24 hrs?  Is it maybe to just be extra cautious and to check fluids, etc.?  I'd break it in on regular oil then change to synthetic and never give it another thought for a couple hundred hours!
It's a good feeling knowing that you're able to have the same style of life after a power outage.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Kbeitz

We have PP+L here for our electric company. One of the workers told me
that if a tree or something shorts out the line the automatic circuit breakers
will try to reset 3 times. After the third time they wont come back on until
the short is removed.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

tule peak timber

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 30, 2017, 12:51:33 PM
Pete,

   I forgot to respond earlier but as to items to hook up, my 17KW unit came a power box with 3 - 220v amp breakers (I run my pump, oven and dryer off those which is all my 220 items), 3-15 amp 110v breakers and 3 - 20 amp 110v breakers which do both reefers, the dryer, computer, TVs, sewing room, kitchen, 3 of the bedrooms, etc. We have ours hooked to code and I have about 3/4 of the items in my house hooked up and left off the lower priority areas that are less used. Realistically I could have doubled up on several areas and run the whole house since we don't run everything at one time anyway with just me and my wife here most of the time. I am sure the larger units come with a larger switch box but we survive very comfortably with ours. Look at what you need and buy the size unit you need.
Can you share more info about your genset/transfer switch? Make , cost , engine particulars ?Your fuel tank size. Thanks Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

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