Deere 440a clutch replacement

[thenorthman]

Well, I've babied here for 3 years now... but its time.

here's the deal, she's on the job site on flat enough ground, I know that the motor needs to come out to pull this off, But I'm not too clear on how.

My plan is to pull radiator and nose guard, remove hydro pump, drop belly pans (need to get in and fix a cylinder anyway) and of course remove all hoses/wires that lead to motor and maybe even get them all on first try.

What really has me stumped is how dos the bell housing bolt to the motor? all I can find is one bolt just behind the starter, while its massive I'm pretty sure there are more then just one. And I assume there are some on the bottom I can't see because of the belly pan, but can't see nothin on top or right side.

Also while I'm at it, whats the trick to getting the pto drive stabbed back in? I've heard of that being a problem on reassembly.

And lastly do you suppose a standard el cheapo engine lift has the grunt and lift to pull this off, or should I get the hoe up there and use it?

[snowstorm]

rad and pump can stay. no need to remove them. remove the nose with that on the ground the motor will sit in on it as a engine stand. the pto  the trans input shaft is inside the pto it drives off the pressure plate. thats why you have live power to the pto. the clutch housing is bolted to the block no need to remove it. you may want to put a rear main seal in. you will never be closer. along with throw out bearing and maybe a piolt bearing. you will need the clutch plate alignment tool. the other 3 bolts are there you will find them

[thenorthman]

well lucky me i got er apart today, had to call in a self loader but shes apart

guess what...

thie disk is fine, pressure plate was never adjusted properly.

of course now its ruined and the fly wheel neefs dressed, but the disk looks good

[thenorthman]

anybody else see whats wrong?



 

[snowstorm]

way back deere got the bright idea of putting spacers between the pressure plate and flywheel. without the spacers it didnt work. did yours have the spacers?

[thenorthman]

No spacers.

But there are adjustment nuts on each "finger?" of the pressure plate. that are turned nearly all the way out.

The gap between where the pressure plate attaches to the fly wheel is just about the thickness of the new clutch disk, and slightly larger then the old one.

The fact that the clutch pedal would only engage at the absolute top of travel has always worried me.

I figure I could slap in the new disk (the correct one this time) and it would probably run as is, but since they used a slightly smaller one last time there are grooves in the fly wheel and plate so the new disk would only be hitting on about .5 inches of metal. So whatever happens surfacing the fly wheel is necessary, so getting a new pressure plate is next on the list, just gotta find one.

[thenorthman]

While where at it, anyone got a manual for these things, need torque specs for the fly wheel, and adjustment numbers for the pressure plate.

My usual good enough  isn't going to fly here. (which is misleading since my usual good enough is fix it right the first time and never have to fix it again... just wait until it detonates to worry about fixing it right the first time... cause you know it'll hold until payday right?)

[grassfed]

Flywheel to crank bolts are 85ft lbs  The clutch pressure plate adjustment calls for special tool Clutch Release Gauge: JD264 for ser #(     -21830), JD227 ser# (21831-25707) and JD264 (again) ser# (25708-        )

The adjusted Height  for the release levers is
ser #(     -21830)=2.031 to 2.093 in,

ser# (21831-25707)=1.981 to 2.043 in

ser# (25708-        )=2.031 to 2.093 in

I don't know how you set it without the special tool and I have not seen the tool so maybe someone else can help

[grassfed]

I found a picture of the Clutch Release Gauge: JD264 so I suppose it is just the distance from the flywheel to the finger.You could probobly make one if you are carefull.

[thenorthman]

Sweet thanks.

Should be able to use a scale and get it withing .06 I'm pretty sure its a good .5 from there as is.

[snowstorm]

you shouldnt have to adjust the fingers on a new pressure plate. my tech manual printed in the 80's shows the spacers between the flywheel and pressure plate. i recall putting a clutch in about the time deere changed this. put it all together and the clutch would not release. back to the dealer to find out the pressure plate had been changed and you had to use the spacers 

[thenorthman]

I'm thinkin I'll have to reuse the old one, so I'm going to have to adjust it. and figure out how to redress it.

From dinking around with it yesterday, there are three bolts that adjust the finger height, but the lock nuts that go with them bring the plate back to where its not doing anything. So I'm going to see if I can get some smaller washers in there to act as spacers. There is a large washer over a big square hole that essentially holds the plate to the rest of the frame. The fingers lever off the top of the bolt and just let the plate run slack away from the disk, the disk basically floats on these three bolts... surprisingly small bolts at that.

[snowstorm]

its your skidder but i would not reuse the pressure plate. and i wounder why the spacers were not between the pressure plate and the flywheel unless someone left them out. that would explain why it didnt work as it should. or deere changed again or its aftermarket. its not unusual for a jd clutch to last 10 to 15 years or more

[Oliver05262]

  Possibly you can get a repaired/reman pressure plate from HyCapacity in Humbolt Iowa.www.hy-capacity.com. They specialize in parts for  Ag equipment, but there is some overlap. Most farm equipment dealers are set up to deal with them, or you could call direct 1.844.247.2162
  Their web page does show three options available for 440A  11" , 12" w/hub, and 12" w/o hub.
http://www.hy-capacity.com/index.php?page=Agricultural&MFG=94&TYP=88&MOD=2796&GRP=14&SG1=39&SG2=1&SG3=1

[thenorthman]

Got a new one coming from local Deere stealership, wasn't too terribly bad. The disk arrived next day before I got home so we'll see about the plate.

Still waiting on flywheel. its machined but needs a new pilot bearing...

[thenorthman]

Well... surfaced the flywheel, new disk, but the new plate magically turned into another disk in the mail...

So the old plate is going back in, adjusted it best I could, which is about 3/8 from where it used to be, before the pedal would engage right at the top of travel, I'm hoping its somewhere a little farther down now.

Anyway installing the old plate there was about a 1/4" gap between fly wheel and mounting locations before tightening down bolts, being how the new disk is about 5/16-3/8 I'll call that good, They took a lot off the fly wheel to make it flat again.

With a little luck it will all work out, got a self loader coming out tomorrow to help with moving the engine around poor little hoist just isn't long enough. With a little more luck she'll be back together before O-dark-thirty and I can be logging again Sunday. At least mostly together, will still need to reweld exhaust and exhaust mounts (they've been broke for awhile, and the pipe wasn't coming loose from the manifold, so I cut it), I can live with obnoxious for a day or two. Besides I've already got a truck load of extra tools on the landing, last thing I need is to drag the welder out to, take me 15 trips just to put everything away as it is.

[snowstorm]

did you put the spacers in?? they go between the pressure plate and the flywheel. that was a change deere made in the 80's

[thenorthman]

This ones from the early 70's, no spacers to put it.

I'm overly confident that with the fingers being properly adjust this time, it will work a lot better.

I think and I'm fairly sure that the clutch was basically half engaged most of the time I ran it, should be a least a little throw on the pedal before engagement, and there never seemed to be any at all.  But never having driven a Deere in the past I assumed it was normal and kept on dragging massive logs.

[snowstorm]

if that clutch was replaced sometime in the late 70;s or later they used spacers. when you say half engaged before it sounds like one i put in in the 80's ended up pulling the motor again to put them in. all because the parts guy didnt know about them. good luck

[RHP Logging]

How does your throw bearing and pusher look?  I had to build up where the two contact to get more distance.  They were that worn.  Even after a new flywheel, disc, press plate.

[thenorthman]

Throw out bearing looked good, as new or better the the rest.

Well, I got er back together today... and now she won't disengage far enough to shift, in fact it still wants to drag a little bit, adjusted pedal to max and then some, no difference.

So basically I screwed up on the plate adjustment, and have to yard the motor again, start over... Yay... This time I should be able to just drag the motor forward and leave nearly everything connected though should be enough room to tweak the adjuster screws. On the bright side most of the oil and grease is already on me so I should stay a little cleaner this time.

Sometimes I hate my life...

While testing I managed to run over my very favorite water cooler, since the brakes weren't stopping nothing, and stabbing a screw driver into a key hole while being slammed around in the cab is sooo easy and stuff.

[Grandpa]

May I suggest you go back and reread snowstorms posts.

Sounds like you have brake issues too, they should kill the engine at idle.

[RHP Logging]

Sounds like you may need the spacers.  You get everything adjusted out so far and then what when the disc starts to wear?  If the throw is too far over center the pusher can fall behind and under it.  At least on my machine anyway. I learned the hard way.

[treeslayer2003]

Matt i never done a deere skidder but i did help do a 3020. the plate we had set up by the dealer.......it still don't make sense to me why they made it so complicated.

[bill m]

I don't you screwed up on the plate adjustment, I think you need the spacers.

[thenorthman]

So since the last clutch barely had any pressure at all, putting spacers is going to help?


Or perhaps I simply screwed up on adjusting the fingers, and have them to far in, so the throw out dogs are running out of throw before doing their job. They are after all, very short, and being that they are turned 20-30 degrees before making contact... that first 20-30 degrees is where most of the travel is going to happen. The throw out bearing only moves about .5 inches, or less, a 1/4 inch adjustment on the fingers is literally only 2 full turns on the adjusters, or about 1/16 on the plate side.

I appreciate the help, I do.

[ohiowoodchuck]

The spacers control the wear of the clutch so to speak. The reason it isn't releasing is there isn't enough room for the pressure plate to come off the disc so it will spin. The fingers are just a set height parallel to the flywheel, and disc. The clutches I ran when I use to truck pull, had spacers under the stands, so after so many hooks you took a spacer out to account for wear, if you took them all out it wouldn't release. Which I believe is the problem your having. When I would adjust my fingers I simply used a straight edge on the back of the pressure plate and make them just touch the straight edge. What I gather from reading in the manual and my take is to adjust the clutch for wear should be done on the rod. just trying to share my thoughts and experience with clutches. I've tore up more clutches than Kellogg's has corn flakes.

[thenorthman]

Right, so spacers don't exist, never did... called every dealer, parts house, and friend I can think of, this may be a hot rod thing, but its not a deere thing.

That out of the way, the new clutch... is just wrong, slightly bigger in diameter, and the pads are much wider, so its rubbing on the frame of the pressure plate.

Yes I tore it apart today... again... No it wasn't in backwards, no the splines wheren't hitting on the pto drive.

So I stuck the old one back in cause it didn't look as bad I feared when I first tore it apart. After adjusting the pressure plate to a better spec, and dressing the flywheel.

Guess what

It works flawlessly, took 7 tries but at least now its working and I can get back to logging.

The moral of this story, adjustable pressure plates suck...

[thenorthman]

P.S. this isn't my first clutch replacement, just first one on this kind of machine

if this where a car I wouldn't have needed to ask any questions, but tractor clutches is weird, all adjustable and stoopid

Knowing what I know now though, about the only thing I'm worried about replacing on the ole girl now is the tranny, everything else is fairly easy to get to... except most of the hydraulic hoses... they are a nightmare...

[snowstorm]

spacers dont exist never did. yes they did. find a 440 tech manual from the 80's they are there

[thenorthman]

That may be, but the Deere dealer never heard of em, and this 440 is an A and was built in the early 70's so no spacers, Napa never heard of em, washington tractor never heard of em.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Not to start a argument but my book shows the spacers. I'm glad you got it fixed and working correctly. That's all that matters

[grassfed]

I looked on the John Deere parts website and I could not find any spacers in the parts diagram. I did notice that they revised the design at least 3 times and they did list washers that they specified as 5/16 or 3/8. I could not tell if that was thickness or diameter so they could have been spacers and they were part of the revised part numbers. I would suspect that the clearance all comes down the pressure plate design and as long as you can come up with the correct distance adjustment, be it with spacers of adjusting the fingers, the clutch will work the same. Did the adjustment that finally worked fit into any of the numbers that I sent you from my manual? I am sure that I will have to do this eventually on my machine so thanks for keeping us informed.     

[ohiowoodchuck]

my books calls them spacers and I was even able to find them aftermarket for 7.24 for a set of six, the new parts breakdown doesn't show them though, probably like grassfed said they have revised the clutch three times since.

[thenorthman]

You folks looking at a power shift? cause thats a totally different clutch pack. That takes some warshers, and spacers, and a pile of other easy to loose parts.

[thenorthman]

I looked on the John Deere parts website and I could not find any spacers in the parts diagram. I did notice that they revised the design at least 3 times and they did list washers that they specified as 5/16 or 3/8. I could not tell if that was thickness or diameter so they could have been spacers and they were part of the revised part numbers. I would suspect that the clearance all comes down the pressure plate design and as long as you can come up with the correct distance adjustment, be it with spacers of adjusting the fingers, the clutch will work the same. Did the adjustment that finally worked fit into any of the numbers that I sent you from my manual? I am sure that I will have to do this eventually on my machine so thanks for keeping us informed.   

Those numbers where close, in that originally with some adjusting the pedal side, it would have worked (other then the disk rubbing the plate frame bit) and would have allowed plenty of wear before needing adjusting again. but I honestly got a little er upset.. and winged the final try. Also factor in a redressed fly wheel, and a slightly worn disk, so the fingers are probably a little past those specs, by like say .37-.5".  A little on the jack screw is a bunch on the finger, somewheres around .5 turns equals about .125 on the finger, and the screw is fine pitched.

When yer ready its fairly easy, motor don't have to come all the way out even, just remove a couple of short wires, main power from battery, temp wire thing(mechanical), throttle linkage, and maybe one of the clamp bolts for the alternator wiring. On mine at least it allowed the motor to slip forward 4-6 inches, giving access to the adjusting bolts. The cherry picker engine hoist worked for this part, not so much for completely pulling motor (though on flat concrete it would have done the trick).

Oh and nose guard, air cleaner assm,front belly pan, and hood all have to come off, nose guard being the most awckward bit.

For full removal there are a few fuel and hydro hoses that need disconnected but nothing terrible.

Also the RPM drive wire thing will fall out once motor has been removed... mine don't work so its staying out anyway. gauge is wonky.

[ohiowoodchuck]

I'm looking at a syncro range clutch set up. My book is a 84 print year.