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Two stroke oil mix ratio

Started by Chop Shop, April 27, 2014, 01:45:34 PM

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Chop Shop

I have noticed mix ratios advice thats ALL OVER the place.

From 20-1 to 32-1 to 50-1 and so on.

Im not really looking for advice, Im kinda set in my ways.  Im just looking to see what others opinions are.


I run my saws at 50-1 with old orange bottle non-syn Stihl oil.

Old saw, new saw, good saw, bad saw, they all get the same gas/mix.

Ive been running two stokes since I was a kid and still have both of my old two stoke quads (both 250Rs, one duner and one trail/play). No I dont run saw gas/mix in the bikes! lol


I cut allot of firewood and have a over a dozen saws.  I use the most fuel milling slabs.  I feel that slabbing most likely puts the most wear and tear on the internals of a saw.   Nothing like a 3 foot wide cut thats 12 feet long to test your oil.


I feel the oil quality has come along ways since the old 32-1 days.   I also feel that the saw quality has gone downhill.

Two strokes havent changed much over the years.  Nikasil plating and internal materials havent really changed for along time.

Why would someone recommend heavy oil mix in an old saw even when using modern oils?  Heavy oil mix just means less fuel and more carbon.  I feel a nice fat "in the wood" kinda tune is more important that choking a saw down with too much oil.


What do you run?  And why?

thecfarm

I fried one saw running 50:1. Dealer kept sayin it was not,but I'm the only one mixing and running it. I should know. I went to 40:1 and have not looked back. I'm kinda set in my way too.
Does not matter to me what others say or do. It's not being put in my saw,they can put as much or as little oil as they want.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

pine

Stihl says 50:1, Stihl trained repair guy says 50:1 I have a lot of  hours on my equipment and it works for me.  Technician did tell me and showed me the problems that he has seen from a guy that was running too much oil but did not know what and how much he was running just that it was excessive.

I have been using HP Ultra  for last 8+ years.  I found a bottle of the old orange Stihl mix on a back shelf (over 15 years old).  I being rather frugal did not want to throw it away but have become convinced that the HP Ultra is the only thing to put in my equipment.  I asked the technician if there was a reasonable way to blend it with the "good" stuff and he said that I could use it in my 20 year old 026 with no problems but that he would not recommend it in the newer equipment that I have.  He said the tolerances have changed enough that he would just put in back on the shelf if I could not keep it solely for the older machine.  It is only a 2.6 oz bottle and I now buy it by the gallon so it really does not matter.

martyinmi

I run mine at 40:1 only 'cause my dear old uncle AlSmith says 1 part oil in 50 parts gasoline is waaaaay too lean! ;D ;D :D :D 8) 8)
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

ladylake

 One reason to run a little richer is in a thread below, lost rod bearing.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

mad murdock

I run 32:1 in all my 2 strokes, even my yammer hammer blaster. I did away with the 2 cycle injection circuit, so I can premix fuel for it. My saws and the other 2 strokes I run  I use the walmart oil you by in the gallon jug. Works for me, no issues.  I do a lot of milling with my saws.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

brettl

I've run 50:1 for several years now but always have had doubts. Just because they run well now on it doesn't mean they will last longer than if I were using 40:1. If I knew for sure that changing to 40 would not harm saws broken in at 50, I think I'd change just to be on the safe side.

This is a dead horse that's really had the crap kicked out of it. :D However, I think it's worth bringing back up once in a while in case some new research surfaces to tell us something different

beenthere

Bought a Stihl 041 new 1975, and used the 50:1 mix with Stihl oil. Retired that saw in 2004 w/o any repair other than a broken rear handle. Ran strong the entire time. May just have been the right mix for that saw but likely is the quality of the gas the oil is mixed with that counts most.

What others do is fine with me. I'll stick to 50:1
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

gspren

  As to finding some older 2stroke oil, when my dad gave me several bottles of Homelite oil from a weed eater he got rid of years ago I add a few ounces of it to each 5 gallons of diesel that I pour in my John Deere diesel tractor, can't hurt and should help.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

Jiles

I consider 50 to 1 to be an EPA thing. Although all quality oils are far better then they were a few years ago, I run all my air cooled two strokes 40-1.  I have, under severe service run them 32-1. I always use ethanol free  93 octane gasoline and synthetic blend oil.  Never had a problem.
Satisfy needs before desires

thecfarm

martyinmi,where is that Uncle Al guy??  ;D  I needed him on another thread and he never rose to the cause.  :(
I also buy the highest grade of gas at my local gas station in all my small motors,just to add some more fuel to the fire. Hey Al what do you use for oil??  Those little bottles?  :o  We need a smiley chucking wood into a fire.  :D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

John Mc

You can usually count on Al to jump in and bemoan the rekindling of the "Oil Wars".  There are probably dozens of threads on here about this same subject, with all the same answers being given.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

thecfarm

He's been playing with oil and saws longer than I have. I listen to him.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

martyinmi

Quote from: thecfarm on April 27, 2014, 08:01:34 PM
He's been playing with oil and saw longer than I have. I listen to him.
Sub-Urban legend has it that 'ol unkie Al is rapidly approaching the century mark in years of life on this planet.

The same said legend makes it clear that he attributes his Homo Erectus longevity to his 32:1 ratio of Budweiser to any-cheap-dinosaur-based 2 stroke oil on his Kellogs Corn Flakes every morning for the last 80+ years.

Now, who could argue with that logic??? :D ;D
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

WmFritz

Quote from: thecfarm on April 27, 2014, 07:16:33 PM
:o  We need a smiley chucking wood into a fire.  :D


Or a pot stirring smiley  :D :D
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

Al_Smith

Quote from: thecfarm on April 27, 2014, 07:16:33 PM
martyinmi,where is that Uncle Al guy??  ;D  I needed him on another thread and he never rose to the cause.  :(

I've been up to my behind in alligators here of late .12 hour days that seem endless .

I'm too late I suppose to rile the Amsoil 100 to 1 crowd .Probabley just as well .I do love the oil wars though .I'll sit this out but will stir the pot on the next one which will sure as God made little green apples be right around the corner . :)

ZeroJunk

I have seen many oil related failures. It was related to not putting in any oil at all.

Lorenzo

I don't want to start a conflict here but  I have always been told that the motor dosent dictate the oil to gas ratio, but rather the oil does.  You can run 80 to 1 if the oil is designed for it.


ZeroJunk

All I know is that the guys who make a living woods porting and building race saws suggest high quality 50 to 1 is fine for a stock saw, but they tell  their customers to use 32 to 1 or at the least 40 to 1 in their built saws which turn 1000 or more RPM than stock.  There are a couple of saw models that are prone to bearing failures and the thoughts are that they would have benefited from 32 to 1. Unless you have some special circumstance like that 50 to 1 is fine. Unless you are burning fuel by the barrel I can't see the utility in trying to use any less than that.

Al_Smith

Quote from: ZeroJunk on April 29, 2014, 12:06:21 PM
I have seen many oil related failures. It was related to not putting in any oil at all.
Well yes .I somehow got the wrong squeeze bottle and primed an 850 Mac engine with straight gas . It probabley ran for 30 seconds before it hung .A very sad day that was .---you gotta pay attention to what you are doing .

Bandmill Bandit

I used to prime ALL my snowmobile racing engines with raw gas in a squeeze bottle and never had a problem HOWEVER to be fair most got a tear down and refurb "as required" after each week end of racing. We ran the BelRay full synthetic 50 to 1 with a 10 15 or 20 percent nitro mix and in the super mods we ran methanol/nitro and 40 to 1 of the BelRay.

My chain saws arent stock but all I have done is ported in and out and did minor tweak to port timing so it kinda like a super stock engine.

Ive been running belray for so long I didnt know there were other 2 cycle oils left in the market.  ;D ;D
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Al_Smith

I don't get real fussy about the oil brand .It's usually at 32 to 1 ratio though .I've even ran Stihl ultra but at approx 32 to 1 .

Truth be known you could probabley get by with SAE 30 WT oil at 16-20 to one .It would smoke a tad bit though .That's the way we did it back in the 60's ,boat motor gas .

John Mc

Al, you know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do, but I would not be using mix oil made for marine engines these days. Boat motors are water cooled engines, and run  lot cooler (and probably more even temperatures) than an air-cooled chainsaw engine. They also typically aren't running at 13,000+ RPMs. Maybe t would work out OK, but not a chance I'm willing to take
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Chop Shop

Quote from: John Mc on April 30, 2014, 10:26:09 AM
Al, you know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do, but I would not be using mix oil made for marine engines these days. Boat motors are water cooled engines, and run  lot cooler (and probably more even temperatures) than an air-cooled chainsaw engine. They also typically aren't running at 13,000+ RPMs. Maybe t would work out OK, but not a chance I'm willing to take

Anything cooled with lake water is going to have a very cool block/cyl/head but a very hot piston/crank.

Air coolers and water coolers dont mix when it comes to oil.

We run bigblock drag boats and the oil temps get hotter than normal and the block is only warm to touch.  Way different bearing clearance specs than a normal automotive engine.

Al_Smith

Motor oil would work in a pinch .Now I don't think it would be a good practice though .

A majority if not all premixed marine gas is 50 to 1 .Now weather marine gas is harmfull to a two cycle air cooled engine is a further debate issue in the never ending saga of the oil wars .I don't know myself ,haven't bought gas at a marina in decades ,boatless .

CTYank

Oil specs are important too. Dolmar sez the oil has to meed JASO FC/FD and ISO-L-EGD for the 2-yr warranty to be in effect for my new PS-6100. So, that's what it gets. Their latest mix oil meets JASO FD, whereas the others I use meet JASO FC. The best syn oil is dirt cheap compared to engines.

Check the specs on Stihl mix oils. Haven't seen any of the above.

I've used Poulans with uhplated bores for multi-hundred hours with best available syn mix oil at 50:1 with bores that look like new.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

ZeroJunk

I suspect this JASO is like U.L.  It is by no means a free service. If Stihl can get by without paying I don't blame them. Doesn't mean their oil wouldn't meet or exceed the specs. Stihl has nothing to gain by selling inferior oil and certainly doesn't have to.

sawguy21

A buddy who like Al refuses to change his ways insisted on mixing 16:1 in his old outboard. He then  complained the engine was leaking grease ??? It was unburned oil mixing with water in the exhaust, looked like Lubriplate. He finally consented to 20:1, same result. Would not go any leaner and kept chugging. He would be run off the lake and face charges today.
IMHO, there is no advantage other than psychological by mixing much heavier than the manufacturer's recommendations. You can bet the farm they build a considerable fudge factor in to cover their butts. We used to run 40W to shut up the bearing knock in our 75 dollar junkyard refugees but it didn't solve the problem. Just my 2 cents (1.8 CDN).
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

7sleeper

Quote from: ZeroJunk on May 01, 2014, 08:26:27 AM
I suspect this JASO is like U.L.  It is by no means a free service. If Stihl can get by without paying I don't blame them. Doesn't mean their oil wouldn't meet or exceed the specs. Stihl has nothing to gain by selling inferior oil and certainly doesn't have to.
There are a few indipendant specifications out there. The most important are JASO (japanese), ISO-L-EGD (european) and API (american). I did a short write up on another site that I will just add here that might help clarify somethings.

As I've said here to many times I don't care what name is one the bottle as long as it is

1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD

Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate

Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (higher requirements than JASO FD)

Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII

Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless

Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl

Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!


And that Stihl cannot or doesn't want to pay the royalties is quite unbelievable. The price is a snails fart compared to their yearly budget.

7

Bandmill Bandit

I don't know this for a fact on Stihl branded oil but I have been told that it is BelRay MC1 re labeled and tweaked to stihl specs same as Husky.

I do know for a fact that Husky's rebranded XP mix oils are in fact BelRay MC1 as the base with a fuel stabilizer added. There may be other minor tweaks for Husky that BelRay does as well but one would have to compare the data sheets.

My husky dealer is the one that told me this and showed me a shipment of oil cartons, with the BelRay plant info on the bill of lading as the originating shipping point.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Andyshine77

Husky's oil is made by Spectrum, Stihl's oil is a Castrol blend, that is mixed and bottled by Omni specialty. Unless Stihl of Canada uses different oil, "which is unlikely" you're information is completely false. On Omni's website they even have pictures of Stihl branded oil products. BelRay's MC1 wouldn't meet any of the standards anyway, H1R would be a better choice.
Andre.

Al_Smith

 :D My Lawdy it's a chainsaw not a 500 thousand dollar off shore race boat .

Bandmill Bandit

I said i didn't know for sure on the Stihl oil but the Husky oil up here comes out of the Belray warehouse. I am trying to find out if that is a distribution centre for Canada that may also handle other products lines. I had to go get a case of mix for my chain saws today and Fred said he would check and find out for sure. He just assumed that it was belray because it came out of that warehouse.

Andy are you sure you don't mean "Spectro Oils" for the Husky mix? I have the dogs out tracking this down. Appears that the shipping point in Canada ware houses for a few different manufactures and a few different product lines.

     
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Andyshine77

Andre.

Little Al

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on May 02, 2014, 10:18:30 AM
I don't know this for a fact on Stihl branded oil but I have been told that it is BelRay MC1 re labeled and tweaked to stihl specs same as Husky.

I do know for a fact that Husky's rebranded XP mix oils are in fact BelRay MC1 as the base with a fuel stabilizer added. There may be other minor tweaks for Husky that BelRay does as well but one would have to compare the data sheets.

My husky dealer is the one that told me this and showed me a shipment of oil cartons, with the BelRay plant info on the bill of lading as the originating shipping point.   

I can not comment on Stihl oil sold in North America, but up until very recently Stihl oil in Europe was blended/supplied by Castrol, Have not bought/seen any for the last 4/5 months but doubt if it has changed

Bandmill Bandit

An interesting tid bit from Fred yesterday.

Spectrum does the blending and packaging for Husky and many other companies State side. The 2 main suppliers for the Ingredients are Castor Oil for the base oil and a Belray subsidiary among others for the additive compliment.

IT sounds like that is about the same situation up here. The Belray address appears to be a warehouse where Belray and several brands have their product drop shipped to in bulk and then it is further "processed" to make the "Made In Canada" stamp valid.

Still digging! I have a hunch I will find that BelRay is a marketing and blending/packaging subsidiary of one of the big refining organizations. That seems to be where this rabbit trail is leading. 

Not that it matters really but it is interesting how the corporate world sets things up to "COMPLY" with local regulations.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Andyshine77

All the small blenders like Spectrum, Amsoil, Maxima BelRay and so on, have to buy their base stocks and additives from the big dogs. Mobil, Castrol, Citgo and so on. The small blenders are just that blenders, as non of them own oil refineries, or processing equipment. This is nothing new. Like with beer, local distribution centers will often have many different brands under one roof, to reduce transportation costs.
Andre.

Al_Smith

When the local refinery,once Standard Oil of Ohio had a lube plant they also packaged the oil localy .It was amazing the different labels it was packaged under .Lawdy they had blue oil,red oil ,purple oil .No doubt if somebody would have wanted it they would have made pink oil .

Gasoline is the same .When you buy that stuff you have no idea where it came from most of the time .It might say Shell on the pump but might be Marathon .

LeeB

DanG Al, just how old are you? Standard Oil has been gone for a good many years.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Bilge Rat

Gas comes in to the plant by barge. It is pumped into a large tank. Then it is pumped into the day tanks where  the octane is set and tested. A sample is then sent to New York and certified and returned. This sample is saved onsite. The gas in the day tank can now be sold.

A tanker truck with a fuel order arrives, it can be shell, Marathon, etc.
The proper additives for that brand are blended into the gas as it is pumped into the tanker. This includes color and the "moonshine" which can only be added as the load is delivered.  The moonshine is corrosive so fed. law says it cannot be blended into the gas in the large storage tanks for safety. And you think ethanol is good for your saws, cars, etc?

All gas and oil is the same base, only the additives, secret sauce, etc make the finished product different.

Right now we are still getting winter mix gas because the summer mix barge has not arrived. This is the only real difference of gas coming from the barge/refiner everything else is added at the local supplier that make it different.

Yep it is all in the secret sauce!!!

Ianab

QuoteAll gas and oil is the same base

Yes and no.

In your case, it's correct that all the local gas stations will be using the same base fuel. Different "Secret Sauce" maybe, but it's 99.9 % the same.  But you go to a different country, different feed stock being fed though a different refinery and it's not the same. Octane rating may be the same, but the chemical make up of the fuel may be very different.

It's the same here as most of our fuel comes from one Refinery that's jointly owned by the major oil companies. But it's a different blend to many others. Octane rating is correct, cars run fine on it etc. But if the refinery is shut down and they import a few tanker loads of fuel from an overseas refinery. it actually smells different. Chemical mix is different.

Every 2 stroke machine I've ever bought, the local dealer has said to mix the oil 25:1. Specifically been told to ignore the manual, as "NZ fuel is a different blend". I don't know the technical details, but I can only surmise that they where getting too many failures (in warranty) with the 50:1 mix? Mix in some more oil, and the saws don't blow up?

Maybe excess oil might wear a saw prematurely? It wears out after 8 years instead of 10?  OK, that's still better than dying a month out of warranty.

I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Of course everyone knows me by now and my monster Stihl FS550 brush saw. ;) This saw was bought in 2007 and has used 50:1 Stihl oil since new. It cuts 75-100 acres of brush a year. 'nuff said I think. ;D My father always used left over sync motor oil from oil changes in the car and truck for his mix oil in a Stihl weed eater. Something for y'all to choke on. :D

Gas up here in NB is the same as most gas in filling stations in the NE US. It comes out of the Saint John, NB refinery. You go south of Maine and no one knows who Jim Irving is, but they are burning his gas and diesel. :D But yes, they do have a blending plant down there. That is due to State or Fed requirements, not really a trade secret.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bilge Rat

The base gas or oil is the same in your area.
The additives and the quality of them is the difference in brands.
They make a difference in mileage, lifespan, and clean burn.

Techron and Yamaha ringfree are good detergents, lube and corrosion preventaves that help protect the engine/fuel system.

Branded gas and oils use the better additives.
In outboards the Yamalube 2 stroke oil has more moly than other oils. It smokes a little more but it lubes great.

If they left a little more sulphur in oil and gas our engines would wear less over time.
EPA rules tend to overlook what is best for the motor and power.

Look for oils with the best wear protection first. Clean burn is not as important, you can decarbon the motor frequently but first you need to make it live.

What oil has the best specs for wear protection in saws?

Al_Smith

Quote from: LeeB on May 06, 2014, 12:29:49 AM
DanG Al, just how old are you? Standard Oil has been gone for a good many years.
Well I was born a couple years before 1950 if that means anything . :D

I was in and out of that stinky refinery for years while it was Standard oil .It became BP about 1978 or so .It's now Husky out of Canada .

Who owns what changes in the oil biz .That refinery was once "Solar" then was acquired by Rockerfeller .Ohio Oil company was spun off and became Marathon eventually .Standard Oil was noted for clear white kerosine while Ohio oil made a lesser grade .Which had to do with both the oil boom near Lima Ohio plus the Cygnet field near Toledo area .This was in the days they had no idea what to do with gasoline  believe it or not .Illumination was the name of the game not motor fuel .

SwampDonkey

Jim Irving supplies their marine fuel and 70 % of their core development is in Atlantic Canada. Irving's gas card includes Husky Energy.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

CR888

Quote from: Ianab on May 06, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
QuoteAll gas and oil is the same base

Yes and no.

In your case, it's correct that all the local gas stations will be using the same base fuel. Different "Secret Sauce" maybe, but it's 99.9 % the same.  But you go to a different country, different feed stock being fed though a different refinery and it's not the same. Octane rating may be the same, but the chemical make up of the fuel may be very different.

It's the same here as most of our fuel comes from one Refinery that's jointly owned by the major oil companies. But it's a different blend to many others. Octane rating is correct, cars run fine on it etc. But if the refinery is shut down and they import a few tanker loads of fuel from an overseas refinery. it actually smells different. Chemical mix is different.

Every 2 stroke machine I've ever bought, the local dealer has said to mix the oil 25:1. Specifically been told to ignore the manual, as "NZ fuel is a different blend". I don't know the technical details, but I can only surmise that they where getting too many failures (in warranty) with the 50:1 mix? Mix in some more oil, and the saws don't blow up?

Maybe excess oil might wear a saw prematurely? It wears out after 8 years instead of 10?  OK, that's still better than dying a month out of warranty.

I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian

This is a very good post and an issue often over looked. Ian you always bring something useful to the table.

7sleeper

Quote from: Ianab on May 06, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
.....I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian
Sorry but there are a lot of complaints about the o-rings on the "flippy caps" here. So that argument doesn't quite count.
And to be honest, I really doubt that there is any real difference of the chemical properties in the "western" economies around the world! Why should there be? Who is the main customer? The car industry and they dictate what the engines they produce need. And I really doubt that international car manufacturers are willing to design different engines for each economical interesting region in the world. They are the customers number 1 and I am sure that refinaries around the world are all at a very very similar standard and can produce whatever the customer wants in the properties that he wants.
Of course there are regional differences in lower class fuels but the good quality stuff should be very similar everywhere.

7

Andyshine77

Totally different regulations in other countries. Automobiles have to meet the requirements for each region let alone different countries. Then we also add ethanol into the mix. The engine controls take care of the differences in fuel.

There have been serious issues however. BMW had problems in the late 90's with plated cylinders, they would pit and corrode. They had no such issues in Europe.
Andre.

Ianab

QuoteAnd to be honest, I really doubt that there is any real difference of the chemical properties in the "western" economies around the world!

From this page (CDC) - http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp72-c3.pdf

QuoteGasoline is a refined product of petroleum consisting of a mixture of hydrocarbons, additives, and
blending agents. The composition of gasolines varies widely, depending on the crude oils used, the
refinery processes available, the overall balance of product demand, and the product specifications.
The typical composition of gasoline hydrocarbons (% volume) is as follows: 4-8% alkanes; 2-5%
alkenes; 25-40% isoalkanes; 3-7% cycloalkanes;l-4% cycloalkenes; and 20-50% total aromatics
(0.5-2.5% benzene) (IARC 1989). Additives and blending agents are added to the hydrocarbon
mixture to improve the performance and stability of gasoline (IARC 1989; Lane 1980). These
compounds include anti-knock agents, anti-oxidants,metal deactivators, lead scavengers, anti-rust
agents, anti-icing agents, upper-cylinder lubricants, detergents, and dyes (IARC 1989; Lane 1980). At
the end of the production process, finished gasoline typically contains more than 150 separate
compounds although as many as 1,000 compounds have been identified in some blends!

Thing is that different oil wells produce different crude, and different refineries process it in different ways. They can adjust the blends to alter the octane rating, but the %s and even the actual chemicals in the fuel fuel can be very different. The physical properties and the way it burns in an engine is close enough that cars run on it just fine. But how it reacts chemically may be different?

Ian

Of course it may also be that Stihl stuffed up and used the wrong grade of rubber in some of it's caps ???
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

LeeB

Not to add anything to either side of this debate, but just as a bit of useless information, oil from different levels in the same resevoir can have different compositions.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

7sleeper

@Ianab,

I believe we are actually saying the same thing. There are differences but they are in no way so dramatic as often quoted. And it shows exactly in the documents you provide. There is a wide variation in the chemical composition for exactly the same stuff. Simply put 4-8% means nothing else but a 100% increase in one substance. And most of the substances you quote are in this range. So does that mean we are going to see any major differences in performance? I highly doubt it, because 4 and 2 stroke engines are actually very primitive.

And yes I believe that Stihl messed up. I read of dealers here even stocking the replacements because they were in such of a demand. And there is a reason for variant "flippy cap 2.0" and the reintroduction of normal screw caps for some equipement.

7

Andyshine77

7. I agree, Stihl likely used a rubber compound that was quickly effected by the alcohol in the fuel.

Fact is fuel formulations very greatly, and can effect metal, plastics and other materials negatively. Thus is particularly so when cheap or inappropriate materials are used.
Andre.

Mac102004

I run Amsoil Saber synthetic at 50:1 because that's that the manual says to run at. The Amsoil is allegedly good to 100:1 ratio but I don't chance it.

I know of a Husqvarna 51 that's only been fed 15w40 diesel motor oil, at what ever ratio looks right, since it was new 20 years ago. So if that saw can survive that punishment I'm sure my saws can survive on 50:1 Amsoil....
562XPG 24" B/C
357XP 18" B/C

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