Need chain grinder help please

[sprucebunny]

I got a chain grinder for Christmas .The "instructions" are in Italish and also missing the first page of reference pictures. The "instructions" don't seem to cover all the adjustments and my chain isn't exactly listed either. Could one of you guys help me figure it out ?
I found 4 or 5 threads about these but this does not have the same model #s It's a Teco.

My chain is .043 gauge 61PMN-50
I can line up the cutter head with the angles of the tooth throat pretty good just by looking but have no idea how to adjust the vise part so the chain will be centered.
Have a couple other questions , too.Thanks.

[Kevin]

61PMN-50 tells me that's a Stihl chain that uses a 5/32 chain saw file so first you need to match the wheel to that chain, hopefully you have more than one wheel.
Look on the back of the box that came with your Stihl chain and it will give you the angles you need for that specific chain.
You can mark the center of the wheel or just eyeball it for center over the chain.
Mark the inside of the first cutting tooth to be ground  with black marker so you can see where the wheel is touching the cutter.
Take off very little, .001-.002 at a time.
If you take too much you will over heat the cutting tooth and destroy the chain.
The vise on the Oregon model can be adjusted for center,I'm not sure but it may be the same with the Teco.
 Check your IM.

[sawguy21]

I would sure like one of those.

[D._Frederick]

Spruce-,

Your grinder looks like the Oregon 511 grinder. To center the chain, you adjust the screw across from the chain clamp. It is a trail and error method. You need to tilt the grinder to 30 degrees (for most chains) and set the vice to 30 degrees or to match your chain, then adjust the feed paul so that the stone just touches the tooth. Then set the vice to 30 degrees for the next tooth, again just touch the tooth with the stone. Compare the two teeth and adjust the screw to move the chain in or out till both teeth have the same amount ground off. ( make sure you clamp the chain the same amount of tension for both as teeth)

[sprucebunny]

Thanks very much ,Kevin, for the speedy response and the pictures. Got the chain clamp centered by adjusting the tooth stop on one side and turning the holder the other way and adjusting the bolt opposite the clamp lever and back and forth till the contact between wheel and tooth was approx equal from side to side, using a sampling of three teeth per side per turn.
Sharpened a chain and tried it and it seems good. Don't cut much big stuff usually but the saw seemed to not pull to either side of the cut and it cut good so everything must be good , huh?
My ex-husband and I are still good friends and spend holidays together. We get each other something good like tools, guns or RV/ATV stuff.Lots of people told him he was nuts to think I'd like a chain sharpener but they were wrong!!!!
Thanks again,

[sprucebunny]

Thanks D_Frederick also, I was off composing above message when you posted.
Yeah---trial and error.Why can't instruction manuals just admit it?!?!?
I meant to ask and both Kevin and D_F confirmed that it is probably the same as the 511 but it has no #s.

[WV_hillbilly]

  Sprucebunny I think you made out okay for a Christmas gift . I got a 1/2 HP commercial meatgrinder for Christmas  . I didn't think it was a bad gift either .

[Kevin]

Bunny;
Measure the top plate on each left and right cutter to make sure they are equal in length.

[sprucebunny]

I just went down and did that, Kevin. Happen to know where my crummy calipers were today. They are exactly a hair different side to side.:D
I'll fiddle with it some more before I do the next chain.

Is there some guideline for how perfect it needs to be?

WV_Hillbilly--Do I smell venison sausage cooking ??? That's a great gift--I was using my clamp-it-to-the-counter-and-crank-yourself-silly one a couple weeks ago .....

[Kevin]

I would say try and keep them to within .020".
That way you set up to grind one side by just touching the cutter and you set up the opposite side the same way and both left and right cutters remain even in length.
Most folks sharpen by hand then true the chains up using the grinder.

[sprucebunny]

So how would I measure .020? With a micrometer? One of those little spring loaded things with a dial?
The lines on the calipers are about as thick as my error .
???

[Jim Shockey]

Spruce Bunnie:
 Would you post the pictures on how to set up the grinder. I've been using my grinder for about a year now and I'm always wondering if I'm doing it wrong.
    Thank you,   Jim

[sprucebunny]

Hi Jim_Shockey and welcome to the forum!!
If you've been using it for a year you are way ahead of me in experience but if anyone seconds the request I'll take some pictures.
As mentioned, it is just trial and error adjusting the set screw across from the clamp .
These guys here know a ton more than me  ;D

[Kevin]

This is the guide I use but you could get by with a --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/photo/74882584/90577071LKnctj

Floss the teeth on the chain prior to grinding, it will keep the wheel clean and reduce heat.

[jimc]

Some more hints for the new toy:
You really want to avoid frying  the cutters, especially when grinding a chain that's a little shy in the gullet depth department. I find that it's helpful to "peck" at the chain rather than just  run the grinder in 'till it  reaches the depth stop. Again this is more of a problem with cutters that have seen a lot of hand sharpening that need grinding to get all the angles and depths fixed. Normally with minimum contact, you won't need to do this. Any sign of bluing at the cutter edge means it's getting too hot. As for even tooth length, locking the caliper and going by an even fit side to side "wiggle" should get you within .002" or better, - the "braille" method. I've set mine up on the wall mounted angle bracket with a goose neck light which helps checking how good your setup is.... Good Luck.  

[sprucebunny]

Thanks Kevin and jimc. That red plastic thing came with the tool.The chain I sharpened yesterday does have one side teeth longer than other.I think I'll go out later and get a new chain to perfect the set up. All these have been sharpened by someone else more than once and I could be repeating thier errors.
Yes , jimc. I was very careful to only take a tiny amount--just a couple of sparks  ;) My "calipers" are plastic and hardly worth fooling with. Have it bolted to a board that's clamped to the ping-pong table and a gooseneck floor lamp. Gonna take some shuffeling to get close enough to a wall to mount it there  : but I will eventually.

[sprucebunny]

I been fooling with this. Bought a new chain .Used the proper angle on the front and found the right angle for the head. With the machine OFF, I kinda practiced moving the chain ahead and moving the vice part from side to side then listening and looking to see how the grinding wheel would meet the tooth.I adjusted the tooth-stop pawl a few times then the chain-vise set screw a few times and over and over but I wasn't getting anywhere in the repeatability dept..
What I discovered was that the whole plate that holds the vice could move side to side in it's guide slot which rules out any hope of getting the teeth equal length.

So.. I took some car striping tape 3/8 wide and wrapped one layer around the shaft of the bolt where it contacts the slot and put it back together. It took the movement out. Since one should not have to use the in-and-out adjustment much, the tape should work for a while.
Now ,it should be possible to be quite a bit more accurate.
The other thing that's important is to pull back on the chain to engage the pawl each time .There is play in that mechanism, too.Also my light chain didn't always lie flat on the shoulders of the vice.
Probably won't redo the chain for a couple of days . I'll let you know if the chain teeth come out the same length or not.
Mean time I bought a spare bar and chain the next size bigger: 63PM1-50 because I needed the spare bar and the chain is way heavier.(I'm on my second bar in a year) and should be easier to get a grip on .The guy in the store didn't recomend using a grinder on the small chain. His grinder couldn't get a good grip on it???
Didn't mean to write a novel.
Hope it helps someone.

[jokers]

Hi Joan,

I`ve noticed from your pictures that your grinder is not a clone of the 511A Oregon becuase the chain vise slides fore and aft rather than tilting  to allow grinding a down angle on the topplate.

What I mean by "down angle on the topplate" is that virtually all chisel and some semi chisel chain require that the file handle be held downward at about a 10° angle to fully sharpen the topplate from the outside to the inside. Moving the vise so that the wheel contacts the tooth away from the wheel centerline makes use of the wheel radius to impart this angle.

As I`m sure that you have noted, the screw opposite the clamp has negligible affect on centering the wheel and you will see that as the wheel diameter reduces through use, that it probably will seem to be totally ineffective. Don`t get discouraged, it`s not a fault with your grinding technique but rather a short coming of pivoting head grinders which use friable wheels. You simply learn to adapt.

In the case of a grinder like yours, you might find that a thin washer is used behind the thin( about 1/8" for the PM chain) wheel to help center for equal side to side grinding. You can also take advantage of the sliding vise by disregarding the O° index and establishing for yourself where true "zero" or center should be on the scale, then add or subtract the proper offset necessary for the topplate angle from your new baseline index, just remember that zero will be a moving target as wheel diameter decreases. It`s a natural function of the arc that the head pivots through.

The amount of offset from the zero index is also a matter of trial and error. As I stated previously, most semi chisel chain, which the PM is, does not require any offset from zero. Chisel on the other hand may require anywhere from 10 to 40 on the + and - offset, You will have to decide for yourself on the amount. Luckily this particular angle is probably the least important in chain grinding.

Another visual indicator as to whether or not you are grinding evenly, is the depth of the ground gullet. Side to side symetry is a pretty good indicator of equal lengths.

How you adjust your depth gauges determines what degree of side to side parity you need to achieve. If you grind them or use a depth gauge tool such as the Oregon type that bridge multiple teeth, the level of importance of side to side tooth length parity is increased. If you use a tool such as a Carlton File-O-Plate or the Husqvarna tool, different lengths side to side are far less important.

As others have stated, a light cut is far more productive. This may require several passes around the loop and side to side swaps before the chain is sharp, but the end result is much better. I like to set a grinder up so that I have to very slightly push the wheel sideways into the face of the tooth to take a cut. Aside from potentially burning a tooth, a heavy cut also may cause the grinder head to flex away from the tooth face resulting in changed grind geometry.

Sorry for such a long post, just had a lot of ground to cover.
Believe it or not, there is more I could have said, .  

Be patient and don`t be afraid to experiment with setup.

Russ

[sprucebunny]

Russ
Thank you very much for taking the time to clearly explain those things!
I'm really glad that PM chains don't need that other (in and out ) angle. I'd gathered from other threads that the in and out adjustment was to compensate for wheel wear and didn't realize there was another dimension to worry about. When I put it back together with the tape, I moved the plate in and out to see how that affected everything and as it didn't seem to change tooth length, just guessed as to where the center of the wheel was (now).
Yesterday I resharpened the chain I'd been experimenting on and got the tooth length pretty equal ( though, at this point, short!!) .Gonna have to get out and dull up a couple chains before I get any more practice with the grinder.
I don't exactly understand what you mean about depth and using different guides ( or measuring tools?) in relation to tooth length.You said="Side to side symetry isa pretty good indicator of equal lengths"= Do you mean=an indicator of equal DEPTHS?= I can see that cutting deeper could change the tooth length slightly.If you are referring to the style of FILE guide: mine has a plate on the top that should limit depth. Or Does this have to do with the shape of the wheel? The wheel I have on it is kinda eighth-round on one side and the other side quarter round. The guy at the store wanted me to shape the wheel with the dressing stone but I thought it fit the profile of the tooth pretty well.( I'm very nearsighted and can really 'beep-in-on' these things!) These are anti-kickback chains ,if that makes any difference.
I'm looking forward to using up these tiny chains and trying the larger bar and chain even if I lose some power. They will make it easier to see whats going on.
Sorry if I ask dumb questions--I'm a real blonde!!!!
Thanks again,

[jokers]

Hi Joan,

I`ll try to answer all of your questions and remember, there are no stupid questions(well sorta, lol) and any questions that you may have in regard to my statements might simply be my failure to communicate clearly.

The ability of the table to slide fore and aft can allow the tooth to be exactly centered under the wheel where there is virtually no radius induced angle, relative to the width of the topplate, or the table can be positioned so that the topplate is sharpened by the front or back of the wheel resulting in an imparted angle on the inside of the topplate. I`ve found that for work chains, it is not necessary to worry too much about this effect. Obviously however, tooth position, relative to being centered under the wheel does affect tooth length if the centering, or to look at it another way, offset, is not equal.

The typical Oregon gauge for lowering depth gauges which spans several teeth, averages the depth gauge clearance. At first glance, this probably doesn`t seem too significant, but if you consider that teeth are sloped from high in the front to lower in the back, you can easily see that teeth shorter in length are also going to be shorter in overall height. This means that if your rakers are averaged to provide a clearance of .025 for the tallest teeth, the shorter teeth will have a smaller raker height to topplate height differential. If this disparity between sides is severe enough, your saw may cut in an arc just as if your chain was dull on one side. Even in a best case scenario, your saw won`t reach it`s full potential like this. This explains the need for having teeth as close to equal in length as possible when using this type gauge.

Using a File-O-Plate or the Husky gauge allows you to lower the gauges specific to each tooth. Tooth length equality becomes much less important. Another interesting feature is that these tools also provide progressive lowering of the rakers. What this means is that as the tooth gets shorter you will need more raker clearance and these gauges automatically provide this.

What I was referring to when I mentioned symmetry is that if your chain is not centered exactly, the wheel will not grind as far into the gullet on one side and in my expereince the teeth will not be equal in length side to side. Another problem with grinding when the wheel doesn`t grind equally into the gullets is that the angles left on the teeth aren`t equal either. The most obvious and significantly affected seems to be the sideplate or "hook" angle.

The radius that you have described on your wheel sounds appropriate for grinding standard 3/8 and up but I prefer the symmetrical profile for the smaller chains.

Hope this hopes you to understand.

Russ

[WH_Conley]

You can go to the Oregon website and download their manual, it's not exact but you will have the pictures and diagrams to go by. I'm not real bright so sometimes a picture really puts things into perspective when someone is trying to explain it to me and I don't quiet get it.

[sprucebunny]

Thanks WH_Conley---That cleared up a couple of things for me.
Gave up on the small chains for the moment 'cause I pinched the bar or something. I like the larger bar and chain better. It will be a while before I mess up some chains enough to try the grinder again.