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More Profitable...Going portable or building kiln?

Started by Woodman12, March 24, 2013, 08:09:55 PM

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Woodman12

I am undecided on which path to take at the moment.  Making my mill portable or building a solar kiln.  I have always wanted to build a solar kiln for my personal use but I am always up to making some money if possible.  I know that the kiln would not be high production but it would open some doors to dry and sale some specialty products.  On the other hand, I think that going portable would expand my market for sawing.  What do you guys think?  Which would be more profitable?

Sawdust Lover

Hello woodman12 and welcome to the forum. I would do both if you could and let time tell what you will want to do. If you have the jobs go portable and build your solar kiln over time. If you put all your eggs in one basket it could not turn out so well. I have invested alot in my operation to stay and saw on my own site. I too have a solar kiln but it's allot of money to put up front at first and wait for your money to dry when the suns out. Go portable and get some cash flowing.

Tee

Hi Woodman12,
      As a beginner and someone who wonders the same kind of things, I agree with Sawdust Lover. Also, in reading your post it sounds like you lean the same way (mobile). But your last question, which would be more profitable? In the long run, I'm not sure. I would think sawing but a solar kiln doesn't tear-up or need parts and upkeep like a mill does. Load it and saw for months while it does it's thing.

Kingcha

I would think being able to go mobile would bring in more business.  But I also think doing both would make sense.    Get your plans for the solar kiln and cut all your own wood for it to keep the cost down.   I am not sawing yet but will be soon.   I will not be going portable and will at this point.  Some of my first lumber I cut will be for a solar kiln.   For the kiln I will only have to buy a few treated piece, clear roofing, black paint and some fans.   I am sure I am missing a few items but have some on hand already.  I figure $200-$300 out of pocket....I hope.
a Wood-mizer LT15 10hp Electric, 45hp Kioti tractor, electric smoker, wood-fired brick oven & yes a custom built Solar Kiln

mikeb1079

i don't see why you couldn't do both.  solar kilns aren't really that expensive and are cheap to run.   :)
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

drobertson

I figure it the same, there will be cycle times for the kiln, you might as well be portable as well. plus you will pick up on allot of strange cuts that would be otherwise considered waste.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Woodman12

Thank you all very much for your input.  I definately want to do both but going mobile would probably produce more opportunities and pay for the kiln.  I actually have the kiln kit cut and has been drying for about six months.  I was originally hoping to have it built by April so that I can use it during the summer months.  Due to my lack of space and the number of logs that I have aquired, I thought that I could go mobile and cut at different locations, and not keep logs at my place unless they are of rare species.  Going mobile would help me clean my place up a bit and make some extra cash at the same time.  So the money I was going to use to build the kiln is going to be re-routed to building a trailer for my mill. Anyway, you all have helped me with my decision and I truely appreciate it.  It truely is awesome to have a place where people are so willing to freely share their wisdom to others.  Thanks 

Tom the Sawyer

Woodman12,

Is there a market for mobile sawing in your area?  How much competition will you have?  If there are already mobile sawyers working in the same area it may take some time to get your foot in the door, meanwhile the expense of making your mill portable has an ongoing cost, be it cash that is no longer earning interest or the interest you would pay on a loan.  Don't forget the expenses associated with a tow vehicle, additional insurance, license tags, etc.

If you are turning down work because you are not portable, then it may be worth it to go mobile.  If not turning work away then investigate the market before making the investment.
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

Ianab

I was thinking along the same lines as Tom. What's the local markets like?

If there is demand for portable sawing in your area, then that's the way to go as once the mill is mobile you can pick up jobs making $50 an hour and quickly earn that money back.

If there are already a handful of local portable guys, but no one offering small scale kiln drying, that changes things.

The other thing is how much time you have to put into it. The sawmill you work by the hour (even if it's charged as flat rate or bf/ft) you still need to put in the hours. A kiln is more of a "load and forget". Well it still needs some monitoring, but that's only minutes a day. Something that you can run while working another job or doing your sawing.

So even if the sawing is more profitable, there are only so many hours in the day. Having the kiln is then extra income, for very few hours of work. It's sitting there drying the load while you do other stuff.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

flyboy16101

I am currently sawing only but would like to put up a kiln soon (every time I cut the lumber for one I end up selling it  ??? ). In my area there is quiet a few small permanent and few portable mill operations. Most of the lumber I saw is for farmers who just put it up green or hobby furniture makers who dry there own lumber. There is a market for small kiln operations but no were near the market that I have found for mobile sawing. Most of my customers either don't have the time or means to take their logs to a mill. But like has been said earlier it depends on your area. The biggest thing I have noticed is that being mobile has gotten my name out there and has built a customer base faster. Hope this helps.
Wood-mizer Lt35, International 504 w/ loader, Hough HA Payloader, Stihl Ms290, Ms660, LogRite Cant Hook

thecfarm

I agree with the market part too. I have not seen a portable sawyer in this area for years. Don't know if that is good or bad.  ;D  I would think you could make more money with a kiln than running around with the saw behind your truck. But you would need more than one kiln,I would think too and again,a market. But WDH,a member, does it just air drying.We have some come up with a great plan and nobody comes to buy thier product. I guess it's just like any business,won't know until you try.  ;D
You have an LT15 right? Not a big mill for big logs to try to saw for others. Now if you have your own trees to cut on your land,that changes alot of things.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Many of the previous comments are directed at answering questions that you would have answers for in a business plan.  The plan looks at your skills, what you can do best, markets, etc.  Oftentimes, your county extension office has someone skilled in writing business plans so they can help you.  The plan is a helpful planning and documenting exercise, but is not locked in concrete.

A sample plan, certainly with much more than you need is free at
http://www.thefinanceresource.com/free_business_plans/free_saw_mill_business_plan.aspx

There is also a sawmill business plan template at EBAY.  I am not connected to this.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

jdonovan

Quote from: Woodman12 on March 24, 2013, 08:09:55 PM
What do you guys think? 
Which would be more profitable?

Your market analysis will tell you.

First solar kilns are slow, and dependent on sun, therefore are variable. You can't put wood in, and tell a customer to come see you in 3 weeks and it will be done.

During the summer you might get a load done in 30-40 days, winter it could be 60-90, or more. I would think planning on not more than 6 cycles per year and perhaps as few as 3, would be a reasonable place to begin for a solar kiln.

Most of the designs are for +/1 1000 bd-ft, so 3-6 cycles isn't going to net much lumber, or revenue.... depending on what drying rate you can charge in your area.

Mobile sawing... How many customers do you talk to, who you feel you've lost the job because they can't/won't bring the logs to you?

1 mobile job is likely to net you near as much as a full drying cycle in the kiln, and you can do a mobile job every day of the week.



francismilker

I feel like you'd be far and above on the cashflow from going portable versus solar drying lumber.  However, solar drying isn't going to cost you gas money, busted knuckles, blades, etc. 

As others have said, if you can do both slowly it might work out really well.  Having storage for properly dried lumber and having it on hand to make a sale when someone calls would be valuable if you can sit on your money that long. 
"whatsoever thy hands finds to do; do it with thy might" Ecc. 9:10

WM LT-10supergo, MF-271 w/FEL, Honda 500 Foreman, Husq 550, Stihl 026, and lots of baling wire!

Cedarman

Woodman, I think Gene's idea of making a well written business plan will direct you to what will work best for you.  The making of the business plan will also make you feel more comfortable with your final decisions.  When we built our business in Alabama and then built one in Ok  our plans were many pages long.  But we needed that for us.  We didn't make many changes as we went along, but did a lot of research such as you are doing now.
This thread will give you a great start on one.
Good luck with your decision.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

YellowHammer

Something else to think about is that building and selling wood from an inexpensive solar kiln will give you personal experience and knowledge in other aspects of making money from lumber that you would not necessarily be exposed to.  It's a good way to open up and test the market, and will probably pay for itself very quickly even if you decide it's not for you in the long run.  It would also provide a source of finished lumber for your own projects, if you are a woodworker. 
I built a solar kiln for these reasons, plus I thought it would be fun, and it showed me that I could make a significant and easy profit selling kiln dried lumber.  I used that practical knowledge to justify and install a DH kiln and they have both become a source of real revenue that is an easy financial complement to my other sawing activities. 
YH

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

outerbanxer

I'm just spifballing here, so bear with me while I spiff...

If capacity and cycle time of a solar kiln is an issue, and you have a mill now and some property that needs cleaned up because you have too many logs on it, I'm assuming you have at least an acre or two storing logs waiting to be cut, and a mill sitting there, ready to cut.

You could put 6 25 foot long solar kilns facing south on an acre of property.

Why are we not conversing about (6) solar mills being put up so we negate the cycle time? You got the lumber and the mill. I say put up one or two a week till you run out of logs to build them.

The best businessmen, and women, in the history of this country got recorded in history by doing one thing. Cornering their market and having all the business come to them, till they could charge whatever they wanted.
Go portable at the same time...the only limit is cash flow. But, when you have the lumber sitting there, it doesn't take much to turn it into a building (or a kiln for this matter).

Just spiffballin' ;D Get to work LOL

Seaman

I have to agree with Doc. I am taking a free business class right now hosted by the local Community coli. and it has feally opened my eyes. A good business plan will answer a lot of your questions because it forces you to do the research rather than guessing
Frank.
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Here is another option to consider.  Sell the mill and use the money to go entirely into kiln drying lumber.  A typical kiln with hardwoods, assuming you do not dry low grade and then end up with a product that you cannot sell profitably, will make $250 minimum per MBF dried (increase of dry price over green or air-dried price).  If you plane it (buy a planer or contract with someone else to do it), the increase will be even more and will also open up a bigger market--more potential purchasers.  Maybe start with one small DH kiln that will go to at least 130 F, so you have versatility, which you will be glad to have.  However, make plans for adding another kiln or two as business grows, so do not put he first kiln in the wrong place.  Many electric companies will give you a special electric rate as you have a business with a constant demand.

If this drying operation will be paying your grocery bill, car insurance, etc., then you should get a bank loan for the hardware to avoid running out of cash when sales are slow or during start-up.  The kiln building and equipment is depreciable on taxes.  To avoid legal issues, make sure that you have an incorporated business (probably an LLC).

Attend a class about drying and join a regional kiln drying association to stay on top of the latest info.

Marketing the dried product is key.  You can dry all day, 24/7, but you only make money when you sell the lumber.  So, although kiln drying does not take a lot of time every day, you do need to spend some time between the fishing expeditions to do marketing.  (If you only dry other people's lumber and never have title to the lumber, then you can fish a lot more.)

I have helped set up many of these types of operations.  Within a year, many are doing six figure gross income.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Cedarman

Our planer is a money generator.  Labor, a little electricity and low maintenance make it a great piece of equipment.  Be sure to get one with a helical head.  They will plane 200,000 feet on a set of knives.  Less than 1/4 cent per square foot for knife cost.  Would be a good addition to a kiln.
It is very open ended how deep you want to get into the wood business.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Old Wood Whacker

With my hindsight of 40 years as a entrepreneur, I can tell you that the more money you can generate without having to dedicate a lot of time in labor the more successful you will be. I look at dry kilns as something that have a good R.O.I to labor ratio. Of course, you need to determine whether or not you have a significant market for the lumber once it is dry. Other considerations might be to add moulder and planer to the operation.

If you have wood in the oven it's making you money while you are sawing. If you want to take the sawing show on the road because you think you can get more work that way, fine, but I would recommend doing both. It's dollars against the calendar in this business. Let's say you have a 5000 bd. ft. kiln and it takes a month to dry the lumber and you're going to gain say 50 cents a foot by drying it, then that is $2500 a month, $625 a week, or, based on a 5 day, 8 hour work schedule, comes to $15.63 an hour. So, if you're making $50 an hour sawing, it just upped your hourly wage, effectively, to $65.63 an hour. Yes, there is some time involved loading and unloading it, but relatively little compared with the potential return.

If you can sell the boards, I would probably get the kiln up and running before I put a skateboard under my mill. That way, if you still want to mobilize it, you'll have some extra income to pay for the upgrade.

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