Board Ft Avg per hour (whats yours)

[derhntr]

When counting good days good logs and good help vs bad days bad log no help/inexperienced. What do you guys feel you average per hour. I have a fully Hyd LT40HD28-RA mill. I don't think I come close to mills potential.

I rarely add up BDFT of a job due to billing hourly cutting random widths/wide boards and some quarter sawing. I work alone often as well.

I would guess I avg around 200 BDFT per hour in the long run.

I saw portable so most always lack support equipment at job sites

I would really welcome some input from you guys  Thanks in advance 

[Dave989]

Lt40 super hydraulic. Average 200-250 cutting 4/4 lumber with two offloaders at customers site.

[WV Sawmiller]

derhntr,

   I got my LT35HD with 25 hp Kohler last year and including all my practice and mistakes averaged a little over 131 bf/hr last year. So far this year I see I am averaging 162 bf/hr. That's not a completely accurate reflection as it is total bf sawed divided by actual engine hours used so is not reflecting the time I use for set up, stacking, clean up, etc.

   Most of that is sawing alone.

   Of course there are huge differences between the times I am sawing big, long logs into framing and the times I am cutting short, scrappy stuff into 4/4 sheeting. These are just my averages of everything.

[derhntr]

My best day ever for production was cutting 147 red pine 4x6 beams 18 foot long, log pile scaled over 6600 bdft, finally tally was just shy of 5300 bdft. 1 beam per tree no side boards. 4 cuts each log.

Perfect set up with logs all stacked with small end toward saw head. Plenty of support equipment, 2 skid steers with forks and stickers all ready cut. 4 good helpers.

Logs were 8-9 inches on small end straight and clean.

12 hours to complete for a avg of 441 bdft an hour. That was counting fuel/water and blade changes and know we were slowing down too at the end.

Other times cutting for my self I know I have not hit 100 bdft an hour.

[Knute]

When sawing oak for grade I doubt I ever do better than 100 bf/hr with a manual LT28 24 HP.

[Rusticcreations]

I pulled 58 bf an hour on my HF mill doing 1" poplar boards lol that sounds pathetic

[WV Sawmiller]

I pulled 58 bf an hour on my HF mill doing 1" poplar boards lol that sounds pathetic

Hey, don 't feel bad. I just re-checked my log and see so far this year I have averaged from 48-350 bf/hr. I think the 48 bf was one 4' cut off poplar log section I cut into 2x4's rather than cut up for firewood. The 350 bf/hr was 12' to 16' white pine cut into framing with 2 pretty decent helpers.

[NZJake]

How about 1000bf an hour... It's not an average but still a good score milling alone. Had some time at the Austimber show to play a little lol...

http://youtu.be/2cFcw8YIgWM

[ozarkgem]

I guess the way I look at it is you take the total number of hrs you work for the year and divide that by the total number of BF for the year and that is your hourly production.  You can take a 15 min production run and say that is your hourly rate but that is misleading. If you are making a living doing this then everything has to be figured in your BF rate. Stickering, slab removal , maintenance and so on. With me if everything is in place and working alone with full hyd mill and lots of support equipment I can do about 1000 BF per day. Then comes the slab and sawdust removal and resuppying the log deck and so on, well then my BF per hr goes down. I count all the time working at the mill in my equation otherwise you can't really figure out if your a working for very little or making a good living per hr wise.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Ozark, you have posted one of the few realistic BF per day figures IMO I have see on this forum.
I can achieve  this if I just count the time I am sawing only.
daily mill prep, lubing, fuel and water, blade changing, occasional foul ups, sawing around shake,  Log handling, slab and sawdust removal, lumber relocating, servicing customers etc all cut into this.
I am afraid that I would have to revise my estimated hourly wage down from $10 per hr to maybe $7 when all these factors are included.
Someday I will attempt to analyze production rates but then I would probably scare myself and sell the mill.
BTW milling is my late life pastime, not a living.
I do it for the love of the activity.

[Magicman]

Yes NZJake he is making a bunch of sawdust and boards, but he is also splitting the pith area and making some very sweepy and marginally useful boards.   :-\

My preference is quality over quantity.

[WV Sawmiller]

Yes NZJake he is making a bunch of sawdust and boards, but he is also splitting the pith area and making some very sweepy and marginally useful boards.   :-\

My preference is quality over quantity.

    Video also does not appear to show any of the log handling issues and he certainly had to completely restack that load of lumber.

[Magicman]

There is much more involved with sawing a log than knowing where you are.  You have to know where you are going.  A targeted point or cant has to be identified before you make the first face opening.  All side lumber is taken to reach that point no matter what type of sawmill you are using.  Doing anything less is just making sawdust and marginal lumber.

A shootout situation may be entertaining, but to me has very little value.

[Will_Johnson]

A shootout situation may be entertaining, but to me has very little value.

Hear hear. Entertaining, little real informational value, and high risk of injury.

[petefrom bearswamp]

X2 Lynn.
I forgot to add mill area cleanup as I am stationary, maintaining my mill rd as I am 1/4 mile from the town rd., edging and mill alignment as well as oil changes.
Some shootout footage I have seen the tail men/offbearers  are literally  running.  an accident waiting to happen.

[derhntr]

measured my avg by hours per BDFT last night

In 1st post I was only counting AVG while sawing, not counting material handling, mill maintenance, waste disposal. Which if counted would bring me way down.   

[WellandportRob]

  A targeted point or cant has to be identified before you make the first face opening.  All side lumber is taken to reach that point no matter what type of sawmill you are using.  Doing anything less is just making sawdust and marginal lumber.

Lynn, I disagree with this statement.  The only time I find this applicable is when the customer desires a certain size of cant for the center.  I understand what you are getting at but many times the final dimensions of the cants are irrelevant to me when I'm grade milling. The side boards are what matter to me and the center in many cases is waste.  Sometimes you don't know where you are going until you get there.

[Magicman]

You disagree because we are sawing for a different market.  I do not sell lumber but rather custom saw logs for customers.  There is no waste or lower valued lumber in the center of the log.  Side lumber is taken off from each side taking the center cant(s) down to the targeted size and then it is sawn through.

I can assure you that I always have a target and know exactly where I am going before I make the first and every face opening.  Different market and different sawing technique. 

This is a perfect example of how varied our markets are and that there is not a "one size fits all".  Thank you WellandportRob for pointing this difference out.   

[NZJake]

I was simply showing off one man ease and productivity. I paid for the logs for the demo so really wasn't concerned of the quality of timber coming off (other than accuracy). So yes I certainly could of stacked a little better - it started out pretty neat and then got carried away. Timber kept adding to it faster than I could stack lol. You might have a forklift parked there and reposition periodically. Also I didn't have to clean up - just packed up and left.

I was just excited on how quick I could get a log processed into timber. If it was timber I was to take home a 80% of it would have been flat sawn due to log tension as mentioned.

Logs were propositioned on the other side of the beam. Simply hand rolled it parallel to the beam into 2 notches. Not too complicated.

[Magicman]

I understood.  My comment was directed to the fact that if the cuts (boards) had been ½ a board lower they would have been much better quality.  They would not have had the sweep that they were showing even before they were removed from the cant.

We have to remember that we have many FF members and guests that are reading and watching and they need to be able to see and learn from the simple things that we say and do. 

[OlJarhead]

I guess I look at it this way:  I figure BF/HR rate based on actual milling time.  What I call 'actual milling time' is the time I load my first log tot he time I shut the mill off for the day and I don't count breaks (coffee or lunch).

I do this for two reasons:

1.  I don't charge for any time other than mill setup / delivery and actual milling time which includes band changes or anything to do with 'milling'.
2.  The customer isn't paying me to clean up when I'm done, pack up and leave, fix break downs etc so when I think about what I can mill in an hour over an extended period that's what I'd likely tell someone.

For example, if I arrive on site at 8am, have a flat, go fix the flat, finally set up the mill and am ready to begin at 12pm that's my start time.  I then load a log and begin milling.  From that point if I mill for 6 hours but take a 30m lunch break and a 15 min coffee break (since it's only 6 hrs) and manage to produced 1400bf.  I calculate that at 267bf/hr.

Sure the day was an 11 hour day because I had a 1hr drive to the job site, lost some hours fixing the flat and had a 1 hr drive when leaving and only charged setup and actual milling time (actual milling time means milling, loading logs, bucking limbs if needed etc - in other words any work I do in order to produce for them once I get started) but my milling rate per hour is just that.

On the other hand, if I am calculating what I make per hour it's based on total earnings divided by total time, so if that day I charged $75/hr for 6 hours plus setup of 1hr I'd have earned just $525 in 11 hours or just over $47/hr gross.

Obviously if I charged by the bf plus setup I might have made a little more at 35c/bf (.35 * 1400 = $490 plus $75 setup for a total of $565) but in the end I look at my rates based more on what I'm charging from a customer perspective.

If I looked at it from what some might be doing here (total hours involved) I would have been showing a milling rate of about 127/hr but again, I don't calculate travel time, setup or cleanup in my actual milling rate -- again, it's milling rate not job rate.

That's my thought though I'm a relative newb when it comes to milling ;)

[OlJarhead]

I guess my point here is that customers want to know what the price of their lumber is compared to what it would cost at HD.  Sure I can't compete with HD if I provide the logs etc and the customer has to understand that their logs make the difference and there are other associated costs but from a rough perspective if you have a log that can produce 200bf of 2x6x10's and I can mill those up for you at say, 30c/bf or less (30c/bf X 267bf/hr = $80/hr so milling at $75/hr is actually producing under that provided that's what you mill at all day etc)...than you might be happy as a customer if you know that 2x6x10's at HD will cost you 67c/bf (actual BF) or $1/bf (full dimension BF).

This is what the customer wants to know IMHO so I only think of BF/HR rates in terms of what the customer cares about.  For me?  I'm not interested in BF/HR rates as a business, I'm interested in net profits and that is calculated as gross receipts over expenses and if I take a wage from it that can only come out of the net after taxes are paid....so at $57/hr I wouldn't be making much after taxes and expenses.

[ozarkgem]

I own my logs and don't do custom sawing(Amish do it for .17 BF) so I figure everything  including  my time on mill related items even if I am not sawing. I have been in manufacturing for 35 yrs so I understand all the little things that needs to be added  in when figuring profit and loss. And there are LOTS of little things.

[OlJarhead]

I own my logs and don't do custom sawing(Amish do it for .17 BF) so I figure everything  including  my time on mill related items even if I am not sawing. I have been in manufacturing for 35 yrs so I understand all the little things that needs to be added  in when figuring profit and loss. And there are LOTS of little things.

We might be saying the same thing unless you mean to include setup, tear-down and drive time too.

[WoodenHead]

This tends to be a touchy subject when it comes up from time to time.   

I saw white pine, quality is important to me and I sell the lumber I saw.  My average has been 150-250 bdft/hour sawing, but I usually produce about 1000bdft per 6-8 hour day after sticker stacking and cleanup is taken into account.  I have an LT40 (28HP) with hydraulics added. 

I'm still recovering from a car accident, so I haven't been sawing as much these days.  I actually brought another sawyer in to tackle the 25,000 bdft of logs remaining.  He has an LT50 with 55HP Yanmar (beautiful machine), but ran the same 10 degree, 1 1/4 blades that I do.  He really couldn't saw much faster than I can on my machine.  He was kind enough to let me try.  This took me by complete surprise.  The head up/down and return was much quicker though.  He also had Accuset which is nice.  But in the end we called it quits because I was hoping that he could saw more than I could.  His hourly charge is 50% more than mine, so I would be loosing money for every board I sold.  It was an interesting experience.  We both learned something.
 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I've said it before but I've never timed myself vs. board footage. It just really didn't seem that important.
Mostly whats on my mind is what the customer is gonna say when he leaves with the lumber I have sawed.

But on the other hand, if ya wanna get frisky and you will give me a choice, I believe I could take a brand new 4° blade and some nice Poplar logs and this Old Goat would smoke you in the half mile.  :D :D :D

[Verticaltrx]

LT15 19hp, power feed, 9* blades, setup at home with log deck and plenty of support equipment, working by myself

Around 200-225 bf/hr sawing white pine for framing and siding, 125-150bf/hr sawing nice hardwood lumber. That includes loading logs, edging, stacking and stickering lumber, changing blades, etc. I enjoy hard work  :D

[killamplanes]

I saw tie mainly side lumber is a bi-product and I edge on the mill. I can look at a pile of logs and guess my average tie numbers per hour. But couldnt guess bdft, its to dependant on log size. Because I chase the tie.  I do all myself and its a workout. But I usually come out to makin 30-60 $ an hour.  Not gettin rich but better than watchin television :D

[OlJarhead]

That right there is a good point!  Log size and shape makes all the difference.  Milling 300bf logs back to back back with no taper etc and you can smash the records...mill a bunch of bent 'pecker' poles and, well, forget about it! lol

[longtime lurker]

Yes NZJake he is making a bunch of sawdust and boards, but he is also splitting the pith area and making some very sweepy and marginally useful boards.   :-\

My preference is quality over quantity.

Respectfully Lynn, the logs appear to be Alpine Ash which is one of the "high collapse" eucalypts of southern Australia. In order to both reduce the incidence of collapse, and increase the ability of the timber to recover from collapse during steam reconditioning, it is commonly saw to give the maximum recovery of quarter to rift sawn boards. Whether by accident or design Jake's pattern would be pretty much "industry standard" within the constraints of his equipment.
Anddd... its a eucalypt, and the amount of spring in the boards seemed pretty tame to me, relatively speaking. With eucalypt species you mostly get to choose between 2 strategies: (a) break them in halves/thirds/quarters and let them spring then saw straight boards out of that or (b) oversaw and edge hard. It's why eucalypt mills have low recovery rates.

But I do agree with you... the job aint over until the boards are straight, stripped out, strapped down, and the mess is cleaned up ready for tomorrow.

[longtime lurker]

I came back to put up a picture of a truely springy Euc, photo is from New Zealand so its probably plantation Alpine Ash.

No reason... cept its a kinda cool picture as long as its in someone elses mill not mine! :D



 

[NZJake]

Well said Longtime. Recovery on average size Euc's is typically around the 30% mark. The core is rubbish and then you have to deal with sweep. Finger jointing is a good option when all else fails.

Flat sawing the boards may not be as structural but still a good option especially considering the strength of most Australian hardwoods.

[ozarkgem]

I own my logs and don't do custom sawing(Amish do it for .17 BF) so I figure everything  including  my time on mill related items even if I am not sawing. I have been in manufacturing for 35 yrs so I understand all the little things that needs to be added  in when figuring profit and loss. And there are LOTS of little things.

We might be saying the same thing unless you mean to include setup, tear-down and drive time too.

I would include all of than in the time. I would count anything related to the sawing. Driving would be an expense added to your hourly rate not necessarily figured into the sawing time as related to bf per hr. Just my take. Mobile and stationary would have some different parameters to consider. I wouldn't have the tear down and setup time you would have but I would have the clean up time you can drive away from .

[ozarkgem]

I guess the bottom line is at the end of the year are you happy with the wages you make for the hrs you put in regardless of hourly bf production.

[ozarkgem]

I should mention that the 1000 bf per day is all 1x's

[ozarkgem]

This tends to be a touchy subject when it comes up from time to time.   

I saw white pine, quality is important to me and I sell the lumber I saw.  My average has been 150-250 bdft/hour sawing, but I usually produce about 1000bdft per 6-8 hour day after sticker stacking and cleanup is taken into account.  I have an LT40 (28HP) with hydraulics added. 

I'm still recovering from a car accident, so I haven't been sawing as much these days.  I actually brought another sawyer in to tackle the 25,000 bdft of logs remaining.  He has an LT50 with 55HP Yanmar (beautiful machine), but ran the same 10 degree, 1 1/4 blades that I do.  He really couldn't saw much faster than I can on my machine.  He was kind enough to let me try.  This took me by complete surprise.  The head up/down and return was much quicker though.  He also had Accuset which is nice.  But in the end we called it quits because I was hoping that he could saw more than I could.  His hourly charge is 50% more than mine, so I would be loosing money for every board I sold.  It was an interesting experience.  We both learned something.

I have noticed that there seems to be a speed threshold that band mills have. I am with you on the speed. I have watched some videos of some very expensive machines and they didn't saw a whole lot faster than mine. I think the exception being the Select double cut which seems to move pretty fast through a log. I guess if I paid 80 grand for a mill I would expect it to cut 4 times faster than my mill but that doesn't seem to be the case. The vertical mills move through the log pretty fast.

[longtime lurker]

I have noticed that there seems to be a speed threshold that band mills have. I am with you on the speed. I have watched some videos of some very expensive machines and they didn't saw a whole lot faster than mine. I think the exception being the Select double cut which seems to move pretty fast through a log. I guess if I paid 80 grand for a mill I would expect it to cut 4 times faster than my mill but that doesn't seem to be the case. The vertical mills move through the log pretty fast.

There's n engineering principal that goes something like the strength of a colum is directly proportional to its depth, or something like that. Whatever. As it applies to bands, it means that the maximum workable feed speed is set by the width and thickness of the band, but more so by width, that being the axis of strain.
You can throw all the horse power at it you like, but there is a limit to how fast a given size will cut before the band distorts under the strain of feeding into wood and starts to deviate from where it's supposed to go.
Aside from the double cut feature, selects mills are no faster then any other 4" machine... Which is to say they cut considerably faster then an 1¼", and are pretty slow compared with an 8" band resaw.
There are also issues around gullet size to get sawdust away. Obviously the wider the band the deeper the gullets can be. I'm not a bandmill guy, but seems to me that the bigger thin band machines are at the limit of capacity that way. Probably why woodmizer has woken up and now offers 4" rigs in the stationary mills.

[killamplanes]

Longtime looker I no its probly not ur log but I would throw it of the mill that thing is unpredictable :D

[ozarkgem]

I have noticed that there seems to be a speed threshold that band mills have. I am with you on the speed. I have watched some videos of some very expensive machines and they didn't saw a whole lot faster than mine. I think the exception being the Select double cut which seems to move pretty fast through a log. I guess if I paid 80 grand for a mill I would expect it to cut 4 times faster than my mill but that doesn't seem to be the case. The vertical mills move through the log pretty fast.

There's n engineering principal that goes something like the strength of a colum is directly proportional to its depth, or something like that. Whatever. As it applies to bands, it means that the maximum workable feed speed is set by the width and thickness of the band, but more so by width, that being the axis of strain.
You can throw all the horse power at it you like, but there is a limit to how fast a given size will cut before the band distorts under the strain of feeding into wood and starts to deviate from where it's supposed to go.
Aside from the double cut feature, selects mills are no faster then any other 4" machine... Which is to say they cut considerably faster then an 1¼", and are pretty slow compared with an 8" band resaw.
There are also issues around gullet size to get sawdust away. Obviously the wider the band the deeper the gullets can be. I'm not a bandmill guy, but seems to me that the bigger thin band machines are at the limit of capacity that way. Probably why woodmizer has woken up and now offers 4" rigs in the stationary mills.
[/quote
I wonder how wide a band and how much HP it would take to double the cutting speed of a 1 1/4 band?