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The Ultimate Logging Skid Steer/CTL

Started by bamadude, February 21, 2013, 08:24:08 PM

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bamadude

Hello! I am an Industrial Design student working on a project that is aimed to create a skid steer loader/compact track loader specifically designed for the forestry and logging industry. I am looking for your answers to the following questions as well as suggestions of your own. Your feedback can lead to the manufacturing of a brand new skid steer designed just for your line of work!

Just concerning logging tasks, what would be the best for a skid steer/CTL?

- Rated Operating Capacity?
- Tracks vs. Wheels?
- Most Essential Attachments?
- Enclosed or open cab?
- Manual quick attachment/Hydraulic quick attachment/Electric quick attachment?
- Essential features? (float, radial/vertical lift, parallel lift, smooth ride system, high flow)
- What could be improved on the machine to save you time when working?
- What size trailer would it need to fit on?
- Any other thoughts or suggestions you have, let's hear it!

fishpharmer

Welcome to FF Bamadude!  Sounds like an interesting project.  Bama as in The Tide?  Didn't they do well this past season in Rugby or soccer or maybe it was another sport? :)
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Bandmill Bandit

Loaded Ghel RT 210 with hi flow

I have tried a few other that are supposed to be comparable. NOT!!!

One very tough and well built unit.

If you can beat the NEW Gehl line up Bamadude you will have a leader.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

Ok. My opinions here. . . .

Definitely need tracks. And the tracks and bogeys need to be stronger than are currently available, more resistent to stumps, logs, and rocks hitting them from all directions. The tread needs to be a little more aggressive, too. The tracks should be beveled up on both ends, like the tracks found on a tank, to allow a gentle rise up onto an obstacle. Some current models, especially Gehl and Takheuchi, have a near vertical rear angle on the track, which can back into an obstacle and come to a complete stop. Not good.

Higher ground clearance is a must. A minimum of ten inches at all points under the main frame.

Here's the biggy, and I'm making public one of my personal design secrets I've never shared before. Skidsteers and track loaders have needed this feature from day one, and I don't think anyone has come up with it yet. The game-changing automatic ballast shifter (ABS). Inside the bottom of the main frame, you need to make a solid 1,000 lb weight as wide as the main frame's inside. It will be on rollers and activated by roller chain and sprockets, powered by the machine's hydraulic system. A set of sensors in the front idlers and rear idlers of the tracks sends a signal to the ABS telling which end of the machine is light and which end is heavy. The roller chain will then move the ballast weight to the light end of the machine, making it more stable. A computer component similar to the one used to keep Sedgway scooters upright might be necessary.

The operator's compartment needs to be more heavily protected than a current machine. It should be able to take a much heavier impact than is currently approved. Think a large oak tree falling on it.

I would suggest looking into the possibility of using some carbon fiber components in the roll cage and boom to cut down on top-heavy weight and to improve stability with a lifted load.

Implement hydraulics need to be easily detachable and attachable remotely from within the cab. The same goes for implement mounting. Small hydraulic cylinders should lock and unlock the bucket / implement, and some sort of cam lock system should be able to automatically lock the hydraulic couplings from the operator's seat.

The operator's seat needs to be sturdier, as many loggers weigh more than the upper limits for current seats' design parameters!   :-[

High, high, high capacity hydraulics for hydro motor applications, such as feller saws.

Once and for all, the machines need, at least as a northern option, to be capable of starting and operating effectively for days on end at Canadian winter temperatures. Engines, hydraulics, electronics, etc. need to be up to the challenge. Unlike the John Deere 250's we struggled with a decade ago during a 6-week cold snap in Maine, where it didn't get above 0 Ferenheit the entire time, IIRC.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

beenthere

QuoteHere's the biggy, and I'm making public one of my personal design secrets I've never shared before. Skidsteers and track loaders have needed this feature from day one, and I don't think anyone has come up with it yet. The game-changing automatic ballast shifter (ABS). Inside the bottom of the main frame, you need to make a solid 1,000 lb weight as wide as the main frame's inside. It will be on rollers and activated by roller chain and sprockets, powered by the machine's hydraulic system. A set of sensors in the front idlers and rear idlers of the tracks sends a signal to the ABS telling which end of the machine is light and which end is heavy. The roller chain will then move the ballast weight to the light end of the machine, making it more stable. A computer component similar to the one used to keep Sedgway scooters upright might be necessary.

Interesting. I had the same or similar idea proposed for ag tractors back in the day when weight needed to be on the front for plowing, on the rear for FEL work, and also on the left side or right side depending on the slope one was working on.
But decided to go with oil reservoirs in or near the four corners that the hyd. oil would be pumped to the particular side or end or combination thereof to be the ballast to balance whatever the needs were at the time.

So, I like your idea.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

bamadude

Thanks for the feedback, that is excellent data!

So if an ABS feature was implemented, how much do you think it would be worth/how much would you be willing to pay for a machine that has the ABS feature?

okmulch

Rubber tracks like the Cat 287 series and Terex/asv models. Bobcat type tracks pop off all the time on stumps.

Belly pans need to be as big as possible to remove debris from front to back.  Ease of cleaning debris is a must.
Bigger radiators then what engine requires for cooling water and hydraulics. Mine overheat all the time in the summer months no matter how clean.
Needs reversible fans.

As Okra said high clearance.

I can see a high demand for one out here cutting cedars in Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas and Nebraska. When cutting the cedars the needles fall down on top all the time, we are constantly cleaning debris.Terex has a forestry package available on their skid steers. As of right now that would be the next one I would purchase if needed to.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Okrafarmer

Quote from: bamadude on February 21, 2013, 09:22:16 PM
So if an ABS feature was implemented, how much do you think it would be worth/how much would you be willing to pay for a machine that has the ABS feature?

Well, for full disclosure, I personally never buy anything new that costs more than $1,000. But if a machine already costs upward of $50,000, another $1,000-2,000 for the ABS system would make for a much smoother, more stable, less stressful, safer, more productive operating experience, and so I would think it would be worth at least $2,000 and maybe a little more.

Beenthere, when I first had the idea, I had it in reference to tractors and combines operating on hillsides. I had the idea of a weight box mounted underneath that could be swung in the uphill direction, either by operator's direction, or even by a simple mechanical sensor-- a weighted pendulum that hung down and "felt" gravity, and opened or shut a valve or operated an electrical switch by moving from side to side or fore and aft, according to the terrain.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Bandmill Bandit

okra while your idea is a good one practical application of it in a skid steer type machine would put the unit in a price range that would be un reachable besides changing the center of gravity to a much higher point there by mitigating any advantage such a system would provide.

The best application of this idea is a GOOD operator. If you cant keep ALL 4 wheel OR the full length of the tracks on the ground at all times you are NOT an operator.

After owning and wearing out 4 units and operating 7 other different units for various owners for total seat hours well over 20000  ican tell you that you would have to spend many millions to develop a mechanical system that could over ride a lousy operator.

The machine would be useless because you would need weight factors equal to or greater than the operating tip load that is generally about half the weight of the machine it self. And that is assuming you dont change the center of gravity from its current level.

Just saying.

A combine is a differnt kettle of fish
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

With all due respect, Bandmill Bandit, I think I will wait to see what the engineers in charge of this project say about it. And it would actually lower the center of gravity if anything, not raise it.

Today's skidders, tractors, bulldozers, semis, etc. are far easier to operate than their counterparts of 40 years ago. While you can't fix "stupid" in an operator, you can sure level the odds a bit.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

bushhog920

so what part of al. you in? I use a t200 in my woods here in south montgomery. a grapple that rotates would be nice that way i could grab a log on the end and drag it to where i can get to it on the side.

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 21, 2013, 11:44:54 PM
With all due respect, Bandmill Bandit, I think I will wait to see what the engineers in charge of this project say about it. And it would actually lower the center of gravity if anything, not raise it.

Today's skidders, tractors, bulldozers, semis, etc. are far easier to operate than their counterparts of 40 years ago. While you can't fix "stupid" in an operator, you can sure level the odds a bit.

You could just about fit complete  skid steer into the engine compartment on all the equipment you just mentioned. There in lies the most significant challenge. The center of gravity is usually at or slightly below axel center and that is rarely more than 20 inches off the ground (usually less) including 8 inchs +/- ground clearance. And as a rule not enough clearance anywhere else to get a wrench in to do repairs with out some gymnastics involved.   

So by taking all the critical components required and lifting them the 6 to 8 inchs to get some where north of a 1000 lb weight system and manipulation systems (and it's weight) that move it around in place at the bottom of the machine you'd be lowering the center of gravity? Hmm seems to me that raising 2000 lbs plus of necessary components to add 2000 lbs plus of unnecessary bulk is a waste of space and still raises the center of gravity. You would be hard pressed to find 1 cubic inch of wasted space in most skid steers most are very well built. The way they are balanced is the most critical in how a efective even a good operator can be on a unit.

Gehl has done a redesign from the ground up in their 2 current CTL models and they have have done a darn good job of it. I have not been on the new Gehl wheeled units but the do look to be much improved over other new models from the other manufacturers. Most of the others have tried or will be trying but while they are much improved in some area they have gone backwards in other areas.

I understand what is going on here and I understand why.

There is a new leader coming through the pack and he is a force with a name that has NEVER been a real consideration before now. Now he is a force to be reckoned with and he has very strong advantages. A close competitor is Case (for the first time since the 1800 series) but they are having way to many computer/control and hydraulic issues at this point. I hope they get it fixed they have a well built platform and a good drive train. Just bit off a too much in the fly by wire department and (I quote) "put it out in the market before it was fully tested because we had to".

the oil idea is a good one but not sure how effective it could be in an already maximized space and what about the environmental side of the extra oil on board? I will add some input for the engineering project later this week end but I need to get to work now.

FYI
The list that Bamadude posted is pretty much identical to the list that was handed to the Gehl design team 5 years ago. The results are out standing.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

sjfarkas

I would agree with most all of the recomendations for improvements.  Whatever the hydraulics produce on machine the attachments need to match.  I run a bobcat and there is a lot of room under the operators seat.  A pressurized cab would be great.

Sasha
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

bamadude

Bandmill Bandit: You mentioned the Gehl RT 210, which has a 2,100 lb ROC. Is a 2,100 lb ROC the optimal weight for general forestry use or is it the most weight you'll ever need on the job? 

bushhog920: I live in Florence but I'm going to school in GA. You said a T200? How do you like the weight of it? Is it ever too much or do you ever feel like you need a heavier machine to lift more stuff?

Everyone: What machines do you use and what do you find to be the best weight for loggin/why?

bushhog920

the t200 dose get very tippy with a big log and the tracks loose traction because you are riding on the front rollers only. it dose help when you can clamp the log and roll the grapple all the way down and back. don't need heat a/c in the cab down here but i don't have any protection on the front, no fun when a branch joins you in the cab.

amberwood

I use an RC85 for log recovery, tree cleanup. etc. Usually fitted with a 2m wide log grab/stick rake.

-It could use steel tracks. or the CAT CTL style steel embedded rubber type.
-The long wheelbase is great for lifting stability, but is a pain in confined spaces
-I dont have the forestry cab, but have fabricated rear radiator guards. The factory belly plates are OK for removal and cleanout.
-Closed cab with ac/heat is a must, pressurised sealed cab would be better. Still get heaps of dust in the cab.
-rear remotes for operate/towing a wheeled grapple arch? depends on the work type.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

Bandmill Bandit

Hey Bama dude every machine has it limits. the RT210 That tried out for a week was primarily working around the mill and I really liked the way it handles the over size logs that I generally cut.

Rarely over 20 feet and rarely less than 20 inch diameter small end. Mostly SPF with some birch and Aspen cedar and fir. The biggest ones get to about 38 on big end. Average around 30.

I did assit with a selective logging operation on acreage of about 6 acres with the unit. Skidded all the logs out full length. smallest was 12 inch butt biggest was just a bit over 20 average was about 15 to 16.

ROC at 2100 is very conservative IMHO on the RT210. Would be nice at about 4000ROC but I think that would be too big for my needs. Different story in the bush though.

I would peg the RT210 closer to 2800 in actual operation the way I used it. An RT 210 is on the schedule for the second acquisition this year after the edger is in place and operating.

It worked well and was plenty of machine for the task, is very versatile and well balanced and the tracks that it comes with seem to be pretty tough. we took out about 4 32 ton loads (green weight)

IF you were in big wood you would need biggar iron. Dont think getting biggar in a skid steer configuration would be beneficial but then my logging experience is minimal too.

Gehl has a system that is sorta of "ABS" in its electronic control system. For me it is more annoying then any thing so I shut it off. In real nasty terrain or a very inexperienced operator it may be of some benefit.

For a good, safe operator I think it be a PIA. For me it would not be a feature I would be looking for.   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Okrafarmer

Another form ABS that wouldn't involve much extra weight and very little extra space would be to actually have the entire chassis (with loader boom attached) slide fore and aft on the track frames. This would probably require moving the hydrostatic drive motors out to the track frames instead of mounted inboard. Who knows, that in itself might might make it easier to improve under-frame clearance and stability. There would have to be protected hydraulic drive hoses going from the chassis to the track frames to drive the motors, and depending on drive motor dimensions, that might require wider tracks and/or some intense shielding to protect them out there. It also might make it easier to replace drive motors.

The entire chassis could move backward and forward on the track frames, to help put the weight of the machine where it was needed most. Even 12 inches of travel would make a difference.

So how do I know this? Well, I'll tell you how I know this. We use a Bobcat 751 wheel skidsteer. I don't know the exact weight right off hand, but it seems to be somewhere around 3 tons. With pallet forks, I can pick up a log weighing right around one ton. I can actually get a log on there that is heavy enough to make the rear end come up. Sometimes, when extracting logs from job sites, we have done the (patently unsafe) approach of using human ballast. I would get the log on there (with forks lowered), and one of the guys would jump up on the back of the Bobcat behind the cab. 150-200 lbs. of extra ballast was all it took to get the back wheels back on the ground, then we would creep to the truck, get the log up over the truck, and the guy would jump off.

Now, I have seen some skidsteers, especially New Hollands, with extra suitcase weights attached to the rear end. The only problem is, if you get too much weight back there, then you run into trouble when you are running with an empty loader, especially when maneuvering without an implement attached. To maximize the machine's potential, you need the ability to shift ballast fore and aft.

As somebody mentioned, there needs to be some positive protection (more than standard glass or plexiglass) in front to protect against sticks coming in with the operator.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

okmulch

If it is going to be forestry, I would not even consider a wheeled loader. I have no problem with tipping running my cat 287c, or the amount I need to pick up. A good operator that knows his machine makes up for all the cost of ballast. Track loaders are so much more stable then wheeled loaders. I have a Cat268 wheeled loader with McClarren tires with steel grouser tracks I use to cut cedar down, the only reason I have it, was at the time it was the only machine with High flow. I can still shear 50 to 60 foot tall cedars with 24 inch bases and turn and lay it where I want.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: okmulch on February 23, 2013, 09:47:33 AM
If it is going to be forestry, I would not even consider a wheeled loader. I have no problem with tipping running my cat 287c, or the amount I need to pick up. A good operator that knows his machine makes up for all the cost of ballast. Track loaders are so much more stable then wheeled loaders. I have a Cat268 wheeled loader with McClarren tires with steel grouser tracks I use to cut cedar down, the only reason I have it, was at the time it was the only machine with High flow. I can still shear 50 to 60 foot tall cedars with 24 inch bases and turn and lay it where I want.


Thank you ok!

Operator is 98% of every machines effectiveness.

Okra the new Ghel has out board drive motors buried in the planetaries.

Get on one. If you are an operator you will only need about 10 minutes to see what I mean.

I ran 287 C for about 1200 hours on very small landings sorting about 5 years ago. Up till the RT210 it was the best one I'd been on. The New Ghel's are the next step up
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

sjfarkas

I think a longer frame would be a benefit.  Also when it comes to ballast a few hundred pounds on the back is a huge difference.  A machine with a rear winch is much more balanced when running a mulching head, but it can't go up steep inclines forward with an empty grapple.  Also the more weight it can pick up the better.  Horse power is huge.  I would like 130 hp.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

Cedarman

Every machine no matter what it is has a maximum capacity it will lift before tipping.  If you put 200# on rear, you now have a new maximum. The problem lies in that there is always a log, or rock, or bundle that is 200# above the capacity that you can pick up.  Increasing the ability to pick up, just changes what is just over the limit.  Then what do you do.
I have run farm machinery, loaders etc since I was 7 years old.  In my younger years I got things stuck.  Sometimes just seeing what a machine will do.  As I have aged, I get stuck less and less.  In other words, live within the ability of the machine to do its work.  It is cheaper to become a good operator than to buy expensive equipment that compensates for operator error.  Seat belts and cab protection is a cheap expense that compensates for operator error.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Bandmill Bandit

Bang on Cedarman

It's what is completed and stacked at the end of the day and even more important what's been moved off of the stack and out the drive way at the end of the week.

If you work with in the limits of your iron you will be working to produce finished product. If your jamin it, the equipment  will look the part and the customers will see it.  You WILL lose sales as a result and you will be fixing your own screw ups when the customers show up to pick up their order.
Being a good operator takes some time to learn and applies to a lot more than sitting on the seat of a piece of equipment. Some never learn it.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Cedarman

Just my observation.  Kids who start young on equipment, bicycles, dirt bikes, 4-wheelers, especially farm tractors, loaders etc seem to grasp operating quicker and operate with more finesse than people that start in their 20's.  Those that start late get good, and can operate very well, but it takes longer.  A very good operator has a hard time telling someone how they do what they do.
If a free throw shooter thinks about hitting a free throw, they throw clunkers.  If they step up and let their muscles do their thing, then swish.  Same thing with operating equipment.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

cutter88

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on February 21, 2013, 11:15:23 PM
okra while your idea is a good one practical application of it in a skid steer type machine would put the unit in a price range that would be un reachable besides changing the center of gravity to a much higher point there by mitigating any advantage such a system would provide.

The best application of this idea is a GOOD operator. If you cant keep ALL 4 wheel OR the full length of the tracks on the ground at all times you are NOT an operator.

After owning and wearing out 4 units and operating 7 other different units for various owners for total seat hours well over 20000  ican tell you that you would have to spend many millions to develop a mechanical system that could over ride a lousy operator.

The machine would be useless because you would need weight factors equal to or greater than the operating tip load that is generally about half the weight of the machine it self. And that is assuming you dont change the center of gravity from its current level.

Just saying.

A combine is a differnt kettle of fish

very well said... i agreee
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

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