Logging 2 acres

skylar · July 24, 2013, 05:27:51 PM

Hi everyone, I've been reading some of your posts trying to make a decision on managing my little forest.
I'm next to a state park and already have a little A-frame house and a shop on the property. But the trees are so big and densely packed, that it's time to thin and/or get rid of most of them. They are Fir, Cedar, Maples and a few Hemlocks. It hasn't been logged in at least 60 years.

From what I've been reading here, hiring a consulting forester is the way to go. So I've made some calls, got one to show up but he was not very helpful. He was very vague about prices and procedures. He said he would recommend leaving the stumps because it was too expensive to remove them. But I'd like to have a the property left in decent condition.

My goal is to retain the wooded setting as much as possible and rent out the house as a vacation rental. But I want most of the big trees (the majority of trees are huge) gone because they are dangerous during a windstorm.

I've read Ron Scott's sample contract here
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33345.msg480853.html#msg480853
and really appreciate that, but I'm still having trouble figuring out how to interview the forester so that they are more forthcoming with information about how they plan to manage my land and the contracts.

Another guy has called me twice but has yet to show up. I've got a list of forester names but I'm hesitant to waste my time and theirs without really knowing how to handle the conversation.

I want to know about the percentages. How does the bidding affect percentages? What is commonly the split? What about the forester, what's his cut? There is a mill nearby offering $1100/bfeet for cedar. Is that a good price?

There are so many options. I've seen guys advertise (on CL) their portable mills. One thing I really want to do is fence the entire acreage with at least a 6 foot tall fence and I'd like to build some small buildings and some decks too. Would it make sense to get one of these portable mills to come in and cut the lumber?

I'm going to try to upload a picture, from google. The land is surrounded on the east, west and north by roads. South is a neighbor's fence, so property lines are very obvious. The east side has low power lines, and the north has a septic field in the middle, so the West is the side where the trucks would enter. I'd like to leave some taller trees on the East side, just for the shade, but not a lot.

I'd like to do this right and without regrets. Your advice is appreciated.
BTW, I'm in Washington state, north of Seattle.

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beenthere · July 24, 2013, 05:49:36 PM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

A hint of what you have in mind came when you mentioned removing the stumps as part of the logging deal. If so, prolly talking about paying someone to come in to clear the property to the extent you want it cleaned out. As likely there isn't enough value to the trees taken to make up for all the work.
But that is just a guess on my part, without knowing more. But it is such a small plot, that getting a logger and/or a forester very involved may be the biggest headache at this time.

Wish you well.
Hang in there, as more info will be forthcoming.

skylar · July 24, 2013, 06:14:38 PM

Thanks for the welcome, BeenThere.
A friend of mine rented a bulldozer for a couple hundred bucks for 24 hours - can't recall exactly the price, but it wasn't that expensive. So why is removing stumps so expensive?

I've also heard that there's an enzyme you can put on the stumps to make them degrade within a few months, is that something that would hurt the surrounding forest flora? or fauna? Is it effective?

Jeff · July 24, 2013, 06:52:04 PM

I'm sorry, but photos must be in jpg format, we can't allow the document loader to be used for photos. Please read the instructions in behind the forum on how to upload and post a photo.

wmrussel · July 24, 2013, 07:57:25 PM

Quote from: beenthere on July 24, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

A hint of what you have in mind came when you mentioned removing the stumps as part of the logging deal. If so, prolly talking about paying someone to come in to clear the property to the extent you want it cleaned out. As likely there isn't enough value to the trees taken to make up for all the work.
But that is just a guess on my part, without knowing more. But it is such a small plot, that getting a logger and/or a forester very involved may be the biggest headache at this time.

Wish you well.
Hang in there, as more info will be forthcoming.

I agree with what beenthere says. Good luck, but getting a logger and forester involved for such a small plot will be a challenge. I'm curious to hear how you fare.

ancjr · July 24, 2013, 08:54:46 PM

I own 5 acres and have had people come so far as to come out and look. There are state funded programs here for lots 10 acres and larger, but small lot owners ride on their own dime. I've contacted commercial outfits, and as soon as they saw the house and barn they bid me a good day. Granted, there are guys that would take a few trees and work as a labor of love, but finding them is difficult.

Basically, no one is going to bed at night praying they get a call from a small lot owner that needs residential land cleared and left in good shape.

WDH · July 24, 2013, 09:07:05 PM

The logging equipment is so very expensive that most loggers cannot afford to move all the equipment and harvest 2 acres and cover their time and expense. If it was 100 acres, that would be a different story. Here in the South, the bigger loggers will harvest up 8 to 10 acres each single day. You will have a tough time getting a conventional logger to harvest such a small area. It is just not economically feasible in most cases. I cannot speak to the prices for timber on the West Coast.

curdog · July 24, 2013, 10:02:24 PM

I'm not sure of the lumber business in your part of the world, but you would definitely struggle to find a logger to move in for two acres of thinning in the areas I've worked in. If possible try to talk with some neighbors that may be interested in cutting timber to increase your acreage to make it more appealing to a logger. I worked with a landowner to thin 3 acres but only because a logger was working very close by. I would have a good plan to prevent high grading your stand by removing all the large valuable trees and leaving you with junk for the future.
Hope it all works out for you.

thecfarm · July 24, 2013, 10:12:10 PM

You might find a one man crew,a skidder and a chainsaw. Not many around anymore.There was a guy that cut just about that much a little ways from me.Took him a while to get the job done. He was only there 1-2-3 days a week. But who ever you get,check his past jobs. And I mean go into the woods he cut. Walk the lot,talk to the woods owners. Don't just let him come in and do the job. Take your time. He should be busy too. Should have to wait a few months for him to get to you.A good logger is a busy logger.

clww · July 24, 2013, 10:19:49 PM

Very good advice from thecfarm. ;)

Woulde · July 25, 2013, 02:34:37 PM

Hi Skylar,

I have a similar situation with 23 acres in Northern Michigan.

I'm planning to build a home soon and wanted to thin 3-4 acres to have view of a nearby lake.

As you found out, loggers aren't interested in such small woodlots. I ended up hiring an arborist for two days at a flat rate to cut down all the dead (primarily Ash), dying and junk trees. We agreed to leave the cut trees on the ground.

I then talked to a few "firewood" guys about removing the downed trees for free. They turned me down. Apparently, it was too difficult to access as most of them were down a steep slope. They took a few easy to reach logs and that's it.

My plan is to burn the smaller trees and slash on site and clear the larger logs myself with a logging arch and ATV as time permits. I live 300 miles away, so this could take a while. Many of these logs could rot before I get to them, but so be it. The rest I'll process to firewood my my personal use.

Good luck with your project!

Shotgun · July 25, 2013, 03:58:30 PM

Where is your property in Northern Michigan, Woulde? Burning might be a problem, so make sure it's legal. In some N. Michigan counties there's a no burn rule.

Also, you might put your Michigan 'general' location in your profile too. That would be helpful to us Michiganders.

redprospector · July 25, 2013, 08:45:05 PM

I do a lot of small acreage around here. There is no real market for logs here anymore, so I have to charge the land owners.
It's hard to convince some of them that their timber isn't worth what it cost me to move in and do the job. I've done jobs as small as 1/4 acre, that sux for everyone involved but sometimes it's all that's going on.

Andy

thenorthman · July 25, 2013, 09:15:49 PM

PM me with contact info, I'm in Granite Falls. Licensed, insured, soon to be bonded.

And where are you getting 1100 for ceder? I'm only getting 1000. of course all the ceder I had to cut got sent off yesterday...

Woulde · July 26, 2013, 09:11:14 AM

Shotgun,

I'm in Charlevoix County, Evangeline Twp.

We need to get a burning permit, but it's legal here.

skylar · July 26, 2013, 02:49:20 PM

Quote from: Jeff on July 24, 2013, 06:52:04 PM
I'm sorry, but photos must be in jpg format, we can't allow the document loader to be used for photos. Please read the instructions in behind the forum on how to upload and post a photo.

Jeff,
I first started to upload a jpeg but then I clicked on the "+ Attachments and other options" and it said:
Attach:
(Clear Attachment)
(more attachments)
Allowed file types: skp, xlsx, txt, doc, pdf, xls, wks, html, htm, shtml, kmz, eml
Restrictions: 4 per post, maximum total size 2028KB, maximum individual size 2028KB

So if I'm understanding this correctly, a photo is not an attachment and I should have used the other link specifically for Photos. I'll try again.

skylar · July 26, 2013, 02:52:14 PM

Quote from: thenorthman on July 25, 2013, 09:15:49 PM
PM me with contact info, I'm in Granite Falls. Licensed, insured, soon to be bonded.

And where are you getting 1100 for ceder? I'm only getting 1000. of course all the ceder I had to cut got sent off yesterday...

OK Northman, I'll PM you with my contact info. And I'll tell you who offered me 1100.

skylar · July 26, 2013, 03:06:29 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies.
Over the past 20 years, I've had lots of interested loggers but I wasn't ready to have the work done. The trees are HUGE.
I just want to hire someone else to manage the contracts and bidding. Can someone tell me about the percentages? What is commonly the percentage for the logger, the mill, the forester and the land owner?

beenthere · July 26, 2013, 04:45:44 PM

I see an aerial view in your gallery, so good on the pic loading. Now you can modify a post and
"Click here......" (blue hilight), go to your gallery, click on your pic (it will expand full size), then SCROLL down a page or so to see what to do to place it in your post. It looks well covered in green leaves. ;)

skylar · July 26, 2013, 05:24:13 PM

8)
Thanks for the instructions BeenThere.

thecfarm · July 26, 2013, 09:00:33 PM

Once logged it will never look the same.I had my logged and what a difference. I had white pines going on to 80-90-100 years. Some nice ones. Everything looks so diffeant now. Kinda bittersweet really. Somedays I'm glad,somedays I'm not. My Father and me was cutting it off on a very small scale. We would've never got it all done. It's been about 5 years now. I can tell it's been cut,but no one else could.

skylar · July 27, 2013, 03:28:29 PM

theCfarm,
I know it will look very different. I've accepted that. I'm just trying to make sure it doesn't end up looking like Hiroshima. Plenty of my neighbors have done that to their properties. I want it to end up looking nice but in a different way than it does now.

gwilson · August 05, 2013, 10:13:17 PM

In reply to your question about why it cost so much to dig up stumps. Digging with a dozer is slow and tedious work especially around standing trees, I would venture to say one stump (of the size you are talking) could take several hours and man be all but impossible with a small rental dozer ( at least in the South). Mechanical land clearing is a significant amount of work with a lot of diesel and machinery. You just have to decide if it is worth it to achieve the look you want. We commonly clear land in the South and mainly for some type of Ag usage where it will pay for itself

semologger · August 06, 2013, 02:09:09 PM

just curious if ya have any views from the ground. we all like to see huge trees. even if we arent the ones cutting them down. i wish my land wasnt logged before i got it i would of done things different myself. And this is coming from a pulpwooder ha. I like clear cuts but not on me own land.

BradMarks · August 06, 2013, 05:31:48 PM

"percentages" Of what - as in what do you have there of value? That's a starting point and should be determined by a consulting forester of your choice. All consulting foresters are not the same and do not have the same expertise. Find someone used to doing timber sales. Do not ask them to work on a percentage, but ask what is their hourly rate to come take a look. More than likely someone would be willing to come out. Where do you find one? The Washington Farm Forest Assoc. is full of small landowners like you, who are also consultants. The WA DNR have small woodland foresters ready to assist, even if it is only to point you in the right direction. Even the phone book, but the premise is the same, be prepared for a bill to go with the advice. And like with a doctor, if you don't like their opinion, you can get another!