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Sawing for profit

Started by welderskelter, December 05, 2018, 07:28:37 PM

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DPatton

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 07, 2018, 08:52:26 AM
Brad,

  That sounds a little high to me too. You could almost buy the finished lumber for that around here. I'd have told him the cost was more than I had expected, I'd have paid for the work and if I had more work I'd suggest a bf rate. If he accepted fine, if not I'd find another sawyer. No ill will involved just simple economics. He knows the kind of logs you are going to be bringing and what his production should be.
I agree with WV. I also believe being up front and professional with the sawyer when you feel you are being overcharged. The old adage of "if you like my service please tell your friends, if there's something you don't like about my service please tell me" goes a long way here. 
Brads right that his per bf price seems high for someone operating that mill. One question I have is was the tailgunner in Brads situation included in that $100.00 per/hr price or was it added on top of the $100.00. That could make a substantial difference in the bf price. Also was there any travel, setup, or blade fees applied that brought that bf price up.
As a starting out portable sawyer I do not not bid a job without first seeing the customers site layout and logs. Pricing is agreed upon and documented before the mill is ever delivered to the site. I am more than willing to price my sawing on how the customer is most comfortable. By the log (Doyle scale), by the bf, or by the hour. 

It's important to understand your customer, their site situation, and what they are wanting out of the logs beforehand. All of those rates are adjusted based on observation of the site, logs, and what the customer wants for a final product. 

The customer is always responsible to provide tailing unless prior arraignments are made. Tailing myself is a real production killer and your per log or bf cost can double. I am always very clear with the customer about this. If your cutting wide slabs or larger dimension stuff you will need additional hands helping with the tailing.
TimberKing 1600, 30' gooseneck trailer, Chevy HD2500, Echo Chainsaw, 60" Logrite.

Work isn't so bad when you enjoy what your doing.
D & S Sawmill Services

PAmizerman

Brad

Those numbers don't seem to add up.
I would not be going back.
I generally saw around 100-125 feet an hour when sawing 4/4 by myself. 
He should have been doing much better sawing 10/4 with a tailgunner.
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Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
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and a lot of back breaking work!!

PAmizerman

I never saw by the scaled logs for price.
It's either hourly or by the bf.
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

Tom the Sawyer

I would never, ever saw logs by scale - especially Doyle.  Doyle shorts smaller logs, which would come out of your pocket.  If you must use a scale, the International 1/8" Scale would be the closest but, if you are sawing thicker than 4/4, it'll still be short of actual production ( on average).
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

terrifictimbersllc

I only saw hourly. But I think about switching more and more. Especially if I were to get a new mill.

One instance where sawing by scale would make more sense to me is when sawing logs through and through into natural edge slabs.  The measurement is easy and standard, whereas measuring the slabs is not.  If I charged by bf I would not necessarily use the same bf rate for natural edge slabbing as for other sawing, probably less.  Often it is 2-1/8" slabs.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

WV Sawmiller

   I'll repeat my earlier comment "All methods of billing are fair as long as both parties understand the rates and agree before sawing starts."

    The sawyer just needs to determine a charging method and apply a rate that is profitable to his operation. You also need to be flexible and often have multiple rates for different circumstances where a standard rate doesn't work profitably. The risk is if you charge by scale and at the end of the sawing job the customer compares to actual yield and finds he has been significantly shorted, in his opinion. In that case he is going to be angry and be sure he will tell others. 

   Sort of like Brad paying by the hour and finding at the end of the job he paid a much higher rate than he had been expecting. Now I doubt Brad is going around telling folks the sawyer ripped him off but I bet he is telling anyone who asks that he was very expensive for the work he did. 

   Of course if we saw by the bf and the job goes super well, as happens once in a while, and we make a decent payday the customer may still decide we are overcharging when he tabulates an hourly rate. :o You just can't please everyone so just be sure at the end of the day you are comfortable in your own mind with what you did.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DPatton

Weather pricing by scaled log, by the bf, or by the hour, it is simply a way for me to offer the customer a pricing method they understand and are comfortable with.

Since I'm new to this business I don't have a strong established repeat clientele that understands how the whole process works. Some are just more comfortable making the deal if they know exactly what it's going to cost up front. An hourly rate doesn't provide the customer that safety net they are looking for. Don't y'all think Brad now wishes he would have had a by the log or by the bf price instead of by the hour? Yes there are some instances where by the hour is the only way I will saw. But if you can't offer the client something they are comfortable with to begin with you have no client.

I don't have a set fixed rate for any one of those individual pricing categories, but more of a sliding scale depending on the actual logs, the setup required, and the end product the customer is looking to get. When your portable each job is different so why price them all the same?
TimberKing 1600, 30' gooseneck trailer, Chevy HD2500, Echo Chainsaw, 60" Logrite.

Work isn't so bad when you enjoy what your doing.
D & S Sawmill Services

Percy

Didnt read the whole thread...sorry...Alot of customers are savy...as in when asking me  to cut a big pile of logs on recovery(bdft) and I refused, the hourly log pile shrunk to half its original size. Point being, cutting on recovery encourages the customer to bring just about everything as its no skin off their nose if you dont get anything out of the big limbs they include. Its smart...
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

WV Sawmiller

   Good point. I have done site surveys and told potential customers "I can mill this batch by the bf but those would have to be milled at an hourly rate" then you see what Percy says and they weed out the small stuff as suddenly less important.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

I saw logs by the BF, junk by the hour.  Limbs ain't logs. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

derhntr

I only saw by the hour as I mostly saw mobile, hourly rate seems to make the most sense for my operation. I get mostly storm damaged trees and yard trees. I had to start a minimum sawing fee to weed out the 1-3 short log jobs. Seems like most jobs the owners want to talk a lot or ask questions about the mill. Seems like I get better help tailgunning when I am on the clock.  
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

Westcoastct

Depending on how many logs the average I'm charging is $0.70 per bdft for yard sawing customers log but only because of a few factors. Yard storage space, use of my equipment to unload load logs, use of equipment to move logs to sawmill, use of equipment to load finished products upon pick up. 

If it's a special piece one of type deal I charge $120 /hr that rate covers a sawyer, off bearer and sawmill. I have adding up all cost involved comes out at this rate. When you start factoring in insurance, time spent doing maintenance to ensure your mill is cutting accurately so they get a premium product and so on. When I go to a mobile job my rate is $0,50 for 1.5" and bigger and 0.60 for 1.5 and under. Any requirements for my equipment is build out by the hour and mobilization costs to and from site. There are now few of us doing it in the area and as it is my full time business I aim to make it as profitable as possible while still making a product for the customer that is less money then the store and a better quality then general box store lumber. I have also made my price points based on local sawmills and equipment owner in my area. I don't check logs for metal but outline to my customers they are replacing blades if any foreign object is hit In their logs. Have only ever had one customer try to dispute this. 

If you cut a nice true and straight board you can demand higher amounts. It's always wise to not be the cheapest price in town and also not the highest price. Find a middle ground that makes you feel like the work your doing is worth while and rewarding. But find where your quality is proven to a customer so they feel like they are doing something worth while. 

Best of luck

WV Sawmiller

Westcoast,

   Your cost of living is much higher out there than we have here on the east coast and many of us could never get those prices for our work. Then again, you'd probably go bankrupt charging what we do because you have other expenses we do not have. You make a good point about not being the most or least expensive in the area. Continued success and good luck to you.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Westcoastct

You bet, VW. I know prices vary easy to west, I wasn't sure of the location of the original poster but just thought I would add my side. Not to mention I'm up in Canada on the Westcoast. I have compared my pricing to other similar businesses that are in Ontario and we are very close. However with the exchange rate I'm sure my $120 works out to about $60 lol. 

There's a guy not to far away from charging $250 per hour with a 2 hour minimum for an LT40. I wish I could charge that but I also want to keep my phone ringing. I'm booking months out in advance and can barely keep up. It's actually one of the reasons I did up my price about 8 months ago. I'm getting to the point that I'm to busy and need to hire a sawyer to run the mill while I go look at jobs and such. This was the direction I intended on going I just hadn't thought it would happen In 3 years time.

A lot of our local old time sawyers have called it quits and sold their mills, so we have a void in our market that I'm trying to fill and build a small portable and custom milling business. It still has its challenges up here tho.

welderskelter

I want to thank everybody for their info. It will be very helpful. I am trying to post some pics in my profile of me sawing a red oak. Thanks again.

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