I told ya so cardboard

coxy · February 20, 2018, 10:06:14 PM

yep a lot of the hunting camps where burnt down some roads that went miles back to lakes where gated off or big trenches dug a crossed so no public access its a shame some of the camps where 3rd and 4th generation this state says its broke cant fix the roads but spends millions of dollars on land that they will never get any money back out of

starmac · February 21, 2018, 12:52:55 AM

Interesting.

brianJ · February 21, 2018, 07:53:47 AM

@coxy Takes that land off the local tax roles too. Something close to half of all real estate is tax exempt in NY. Own a farm you would rather not pay taxes on call it an animal rescue....or horse retirement.

Maine logger88 · February 21, 2018, 07:30:28 PM

I don't understand why states even need to own massive amounts of land I get having a few parks here and there but owning large amounts of timberland seems pointless especially if they never sell any wood.

Southside · February 21, 2018, 07:54:31 PM

Look at what the federal government owns out west - I think it's around 90% of Utah alone, and dealing with the USFS is a whole different animal. They even have rules about how much snow to LEAVE on the road when plowing.

starmac · February 21, 2018, 10:17:45 PM

That is no lie, on some of our log roads, we have to leave so much, I have never heard of them measuring it, we just can't take it down to where any dirt is visible, it is for the snow machines and dog teams.

SwampDonkey · February 22, 2018, 05:24:40 AM

They been doing that here the last 10 years on rural roads, 2" of ice all winter with the centre line bare from sanding. Not fit for a vehicle, more useful for skates and kick sleds. I do intend to get a kick sled next winter. :D

nativewolf · February 22, 2018, 07:28:09 AM

over the last 40 years the govt owned lands have come under all sorts of pressure as people recognized that the lands were public and they wanted to use them too. So the whole multi use thing starts rolling.

Lots of u guys snow mobile, thus the snow rules (which is interesting to read about on the same forum-good thing). Wildlife is just the same. Public lands are owned by everyone in the county/state/nation. So for better or worse the state owned NY lands are going to have lots of wildlife advocate/outdoors advocate pressure. Trees just being one visible to us facet of the land.

Nothing wrong with good multi-use forest management. Traditionally the USFS and Interior land were pretty much just free sources of timber for logging interest, any change at all was going to reduce logging interest and that is just something we all have to work at. It is all mostly open process though and the govt agencies respond to inquiries pretty darn well. If you take the time to advocate for a position, and organize like people, you'll have an impact. The govt does a much better job today than 40 years ago at listening to all sorts of groups.

As to why did the state buy the lands? Someone advocated for it, someone that was organized. The new owners did not want hunting camps, that's fine. If the hunting camp owners get very organized there is a fine process for advocating for use rights on the lands that they now partly own. Interesting because they had no formal rights before at all, they had at most a formal lease that was subject to being canceled at any year. Some timber companies don't allow any hunting, what if the land had been sold to one of those companies?

mike_belben · February 22, 2018, 08:21:05 AM

You assume or you have done this?

I was the massachusetts land access rep for east coast 4wd association, i represented approx 3000 members at that time and lobbied my butt off at all facets of the state. I drove a lot miles, burned a lot of minutes, went to every meeting, met politicians, met div of wildlife staff, organized volunteers needed for state events.

every door with the state was closed. It was a collossal waste of time. About 3 years worth.

On the flip side ive gone against sierra club in hawaii as a mountainbiker, also organized, and been steam rolled every time.

When the guy in charge of massachusetts atv land told me on the phone that he thought it should be banned entirely, i finally understood. And learned gary's tactics for closing down state ATV parks to atvs. He was an ecowarrior who infiltrated a govt position to achieve his personal agenda. If im not mistaken there were 22 state parks for atv use when i got my first quad in the 90s. The state has added acreage to their tally but the atv system is down to 7 state forests. I learned that all funds collected by the mandatory statewide atv registration go toward enforecement officers. All they do is hand out tickets for failure to register. The state would publically claim poor when closing a park but would privately decline our voluntary labor offers to maintain it. Hopefully this was just massachusetts but i have my doubt. The reps from other states in region D had the same stories at quarterly meetings.

nativewolf · February 22, 2018, 10:13:51 AM

So, atv riders had trouble getting enough clout in MA. However, it is clear the snow mobile riders do have enough clout. Did you partner with them? Who were you lobbying and why? Who's for sale?

The sierra club is a big political lobby and the fact that they won in Hawaii is actually a testament to public power.

I have been very successful but am out of it for now. We helped bring investors to large timber deals, sometimes that mean a change in tax code to help cities and state governments issue bonds to buy forest. That's how NY bought that forest I am sure, they issued a bond and it is a tax free muni (if I guess correctly) and that juices the returns for investors. They take the bond offering and buy the land but then spend 50 years paying off the bond holders. Since the bond is mostly being paid back by the citizens of the greater NYC area that's who will call the shots. The key then is to lobby those influential people for local use rights. I've also done just that, lobbied national governments to transfer significant use rights back to local users to increase the efficient use of forest resources.

Easier in the US than most other countries, no where is perfect.

Kemper · February 22, 2018, 12:47:44 PM

Any word on the Verso plant in Wickliffe, Ky? Rumor has it the plant is spotless and ready to start taking pulp again. There have been rumors of them selling it and the satellite yards with it. Any news would be appreciated.

They sold several thousands of acres here for pennies on the dollar compared to what they paid for the ground.

mike_belben · February 22, 2018, 02:07:36 PM

I should probably quit hijacking and PM you. Give me some time to try to remember how it all went. The 4wd stuff was maybe 2005-2008 or so. My tour in hawaii ended in 03.

coxy · February 22, 2018, 02:24:56 PM

Quote from: nativewolf on February 22, 2018, 10:13:51 AM
So, atv riders had trouble getting enough clout in MA. However, it is clear the snow mobile riders do have enough clout. Did you partner with them? Who were you lobbying and why? Who's for sale?

The sierra club is a big political lobby and the fact that they won in Hawaii is actually a testament to public power.

I have been very successful but am out of it for now. We helped bring investors to large timber deals, sometimes that mean a change in tax code to help cities and state governments issue bonds to buy forest. That's how NY bought that forest I am sure, they issued a bond and it is a tax free muni (if I guess correctly) and that juices the returns for investors. They take the bond offering and buy the land but then spend 50 years paying off the bond holders. Since the bond is mostly being paid back by the citizens of the greater NYC area that's who will call the shots. The key then is to lobby those influential people for local use rights. I've also done just that, lobbied national governments to transfer significant use rights back to local users to increase the efficient use of forest resources.

Easier in the US than most other countries, no where is perfect.

its not just about the camps there was miles and miles of roads they shut down even to snowmobile riding and access to fishing and hunting who wants to walk 3-4 miles back in the woods to fish or even hunt you would have to pack your deer out there is thousands of miles of old logging roads on the state we as a snowmobile club asked if there was any way to open them up just to snowmobile ride on there was 10 of us that own dozers and would have done the work free there answer was yes but don't cut, prune or disturb any dirt, plant or rock so the answer is really no i don't know anything about any other state just NY this is the land of death and taxes and more taxes after your dead

nativewolf · February 22, 2018, 06:16:25 PM

Mike is right on thread hijacking. Sorry to the OP.

Coxy if you want to discuss strategies there feel free to give me a call sometime, I'll send you my cell.

Just wanted to end this on how happy I am that there is some temporary good news. Hope it lasts but I don't think we've seen the end of mill closings.

coxy · February 22, 2018, 07:23:57 PM

most of the time its hijacked by food :D i didn't see mikes post sorry for the hijack snowstorm

paul case · February 22, 2018, 08:01:38 PM

I am glad someone is making cardboard as I like it as packaging for my chikn potpies and hot pockets.

Fixed it.
PC

Resonator · February 22, 2018, 11:05:51 PM

Chicken pot pies and hot pockets are packaged in printed cardstock, not cardboard. Cardboard by definition is two flat sheets with a wavy layer sandwiched in between, cardstock is a single flat sheet thicker than paper, different product. (Sorry for the correction Paul, I grew up in the land of Wisconsin pulp paper mills).

timberking · February 23, 2018, 08:43:48 AM

Any new wood consumption anywhere is good news. We have hopes pinned on Chinese building outside Arkadelphia, Arkansas. 4-500 loads of pine a day. Started as pulp now liner board.