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Firewood seasonoing. Red oak

Started by Kwill, January 24, 2018, 02:35:29 PM

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John Mc

doctorb -

I suspect your moisture meter will not read accurately over about 25% (that's common in a lot of meters designed for woodworking use, which focus on the low end of the scale). Fresh cut Red Oak has a much higher moisture content. Even if it blew over 3 months ago, it's unlikely it would be down to 26% by now (especially if it spent a good bit of that time still in tree length). If it were down to 26%, I'd expect to be seeing checking in the ends.

I've always been told the proper method is a comparison of the weight of the water to the weight of the dry wood, so if the water weighs the same as the wood, that would be 100% moisture content. In this case, it's possible to have more than 100% moisture content. Most of the studies I've read seem to use this method

Another method I've heard people argue in favor of is to compare the weight of the water to the total weight of the piece. In this case, in the example above, where the water weight equals the wood weight, the moisture content would be called 50%. Intuitively, this method makes more sense to most people: If it's 50% moisture content, then half the weight of this piece is water. However, this does not seem to be the method commonly in use.

By the first method, Moisture content in fresh cut logs ranges from 45 to more than 200%. I've read somewhere that Red Oak is generally in the mid 80% range, but I can't swear to that. Most wood dries relatively quickly to the fiber saturation point (FSP varies by species, but generally around 25-30%). That's the point where the "free water" in the cells is out of the wood. Drying below the FSP takes more time, as water is being removed from the cell walls. Generally, no shrinkage takes place while free water is being lost. The shrinkage happens as you go below the FSP. So if you are seeing cracks appear in the wood, at least parts of it are getting below the FSP.

Some light reading on the subject, if you get bored:
Wood and Moisture Relationships, by James Reeb
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

doctorb

So, are you suggesting that I weigh each piece now, and compare the weight to that of Dec 2019?  I could easily do that.  It would represent a percent of total weight lost, and may give a different degree of "seasoning" than the moisture meter.

And, yes, the tree was untouched until about 4 weeks ago when I started the buck it and move the rounds down to my wood stove area.  It's as green as can be.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

John Mc

Whether to weigh or not is up to you. The meter should read accurately as you get into lower moisture content ranges. Just letting you know that if the tree is as green as you describe, it's certainly well over 26% MC
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

doctorb

My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

lirachamo51

i cut in mid winter when roads are frozen and can skid out without all the dirt getting into the bark, which makes for a lot of chain sharpening when bucking. split in early summer and it burns fine in the fall. keep it tarped after september ,so snow and ice don't build up on it. only burn about 10 cords a year in camp, house, evaporator. never had an issue with creosote building in chimney's . cut a variety of hard and soft...oak,maple ( hard and soft), white ,yellow and black birch, hickory, wp,hemlock to mix in the evaporator to keep the boil from dropping off.
Randy

32vld

My son has a wood burning oven on his pizza truck.
pizzarita.org, it is a 1946 Chevrolet 2 ton former farm truck.

I split white and red oak, that is the only wood he uses, and then
stack it in rows 4' high by 24'four feet long. The rows are
stacked 3' feet apart. The wood is in an area that gets shade
though plenty of air.

The wood is not covered. I wish I had a roof over then to keep
the direct rain and snow off and they would stay cleaner.

When I get the rounds I try to split them before they sit for one
month. Though there have been a few times were they sat for
3 to 4 months before I get them split. The rounds are stacked
bark side to the ground so the ends are exposed to the air.
The rows of rounds are stacked 3' apart. Height depends on
how heavy the rounds are.

My moisture meter says that after one year the ends are 14% and
when I re-split a piece the moisture reads 22% in the middle.

Green the moisture measured is 48% when the round is first split.

32vld

Quote from: KEC on June 13, 2018, 09:38:31 PM
Red Oak (and some other species), when cut in the spring, if the outside of the log is relatively defect-free, and you score the bark lengthwise with a chainsaw, can be de-barked with an axe. Yes, this can be a bit labor-intensive, but bark-free wood dries faster and burns better and fewer bugs. Anyone else do this ?
When splitting white and red oak I never remove the bark
unless it appears that is will come off easily when splitting.
Visible gap where a axe will fit in an one tap and the bark
is off.

Less insects is a plus though I do not bring the barked pieces
into my fire place. Also I split many large diameter rounds
in the 18" to 36" so there is a high yield of no bark pieces.
I never used the moisture meter to see if the pieces that had
bark had a higher moisture content than the interior pieces.

Being that the outer grow rings have more sap flow it would
appear that pieces split from that section would have a higher
moisture content due to their location and having bark does
not cause the higher moisture content. Just my guess. Not
a scientist.

mike_belben

Bark is the devil, all the crawly stuff and all the fungus lives just under it.  Once bark is gone, ants is the only other thing that might be in there and theyre pretty easy to spot.  A debarked woodpile lasts a lot longer without rotting.
Praise The Lord

32vld

Just started using a log splitting. So I now take off the bark
as part of the splitting process. Cleaner wood, get rid of the 
insects.

doctorb

Update on the wood seasoning experiment.  (See explanation Reply # 41.)

The guru's over in the Tree ID section believe that this is actually a Chestnut Oak, and not a Red Oak.  Doesn't really change the experiment.

Please verify species in Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.  See pics of wood at top of thread.

I got a little worried that the logs, especially the pieces exposed to the sun, might have their identifying yellow paint fade by December 2019, so I nailed a large washer into the ends of each log.  I don't think I'd miss that before I threw it into the OWB.

So now we just let nature take its course.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

John Mc

I did an experiment just like this some years ago. I was trying to find out how much difference it makes stacking wood in a single row exposed to sun and wind, in a triple row with 3 rows stacked right next to each other - also exposed to sun and wind, or under firewood shed (open on three sides, multiple rows stacked about 6" apart). Other than the roof on the shed, everything else was uncovered. The shed has a gravel floor, the rest were laid on poles to keep it up off the ground. Species were Beech, Red Maple, some Sugar Maple, Oak (red & white) and Black Birch.

I wish I had kept the data, but it has been lost over time. I do recall the general results:

For most of the species I tracked, I could easily get below 20% (most was in the 15% range) with one summer of drying if stacked in single rows. I could even wait until June or July to cut split and stack and still be ready to burn by late fall. The exception was Oak, which was higher MC and hard to light that fall. It really needs to season 2 summers (at least in my drying conditions here in VT).

In the triple rows, it was hit or miss if I could get it dry in one summer, but most of the non-oak wood in the outside rows was in decent shape.

The slowest drying was in my shed, even though it was open on three sides. Some of the stuff that was fresh-cut green developed mold. It did eventually dry, but other than the outer row, nothing cut that spring was as dry as I like it in order to use that fall. No problems with rot, however.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with, Dr b
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

32vld

It makes me wonder when people say two to three years to
season oak just how long do they let the rounds sit before
they split them and to what size do they split the firewood 
pieces.

My son has a pizza truck with a wood fired oven. He has
been running his truck for four years.

We use only oak. Started burning mostly red, now we use almost
all white. Firewood is 16" to 17" length. Most of the wood is split
to about a 2" x 3" cross section.

I have a 6.5' x 15' trailer to get the wood. So a trailer load of
rounds will be split in 2 to 4 weeks.

The wood is stacked 4' high by 24' long in a shady but open
area, uncovered. Rows are 3' apart to easily run a wheel barrow
through them.

Moisture meter reading of 14% on the ends and 21% when 
the wood is re-split to check the middle moisture content after
one year of drying.


John Mc

I need two summers of drying to reliably get Red Oak down to below 20% average MC. Cut to 16", split to roughly 3"x3" or 3" x 4", and stack in the spring, single rows (i.e. at least several feet between them) open to the sun and wind, uncovered until just before heating season. Most species will be ready to burn (+/- 15% MC) by that fall.

Not Oak. It's not ready until the following heating season. Can I get it to burn after just that one summer? Sure. But it's harder to get started, burns less cleanly, and does not give off as much heat as if I let it fully dry.

I suspect if I got an early enough start in the late summer or fall, I might by able to get it there in only slightly over a year, but I've never done much testing of that.

I'm guessing the difference may be either the time of year that the Oak is cut, or the fact that your drying season is probably a bit longer on Long Island than in my part of VT.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

32vld

I have split all my oak with a splitting axe. So I never would have
enough firewood put up to season to more than 1 year ahead.

This September I finally bought a log splitter and have a source
for white oak so I hope to be able to try seasoning the oak for
a longer time so my son and I can see what difference there is
burning in his wood fired oven.

Also he is looking to open a store in addition to his truck so I will
need to have enough wood on hand to supply him.

Another thing is I am thinking of using a hoop shed with a canvas
over the top because his wood has to be clean for the fire is on 
the floor of the oven to keep dirt off the pizza.

Now the lower rows of wood get splashed with dirt from the rain.
Slows up the loading time cleaning the wood. And the bottom two
rows are so dirty that the have to be restacked like a log cabin
out in the open so the rain washes all the dirt off of them before 
they can be used.

I wood leave the ends of the hoop shed open and the sides have
a opening about 2' between the canvas and the ground.

thecfarm

32vld,I doubt many of us is splitting down to 2-3 inches for firewood. Yours should dry quicker than a stove wood size of wood,which I think would be at least 6 inches across.
Good idea on the hoop house.
I wonder,room wise,if you could dry it like lumber. Lay down 2 pieces,like stickers,than a layer of wood than stickers and so on. That would give you more airflow,I would think.
More thinking,would that black weed control allow airflow but help keep the rain off the ends?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

olcowhand

Quote from: doctorb on June 11, 2018, 07:16:27 PM
Tom-  Welcome to the Forum!

We agree and I think it's time for a little experiment.

I am cutting and splitting a red oak (I assume.  I'll also get pics of the wood.  It's not a tree that I have ID'ed closely before.) that blew over in a storm about 3 months ago.  It was a healthy live tree.  I will take one of the 18 inch rounds and split it into 6 triangular shaped pieces.  Each will have a radius of bark attached.  I will mark the bark so I don't lose track.

I'll measure the MC after splitting, which should be very high.  (I have read here that MC is inaccurate on most meters when it's extremely high.)  I'll report that here.  I'll place a couple of the pieces on top of my outside wood stacks (fully exposed to wind / sun / rain) that will not be used for at least 18 months from now, providing 2 summers, 2 falls, 1 winter and 1 spring of seasoning.  I'll place the others inside the shed, one within one of this year's "green" stacks and another on top of the same stack.  I'll take pics to give you guys some idea of the different environments for these pieces.

Hopefully I'll write this stuff down, not turn senile, and let the wood season until December 2019.  Then I'll split the pieces and measure the MC.   We will get some idea how much the shed experience effects the MC.  I would tend to agree with your assumption regarding seasoning inside of the shed.

It's a long time to have a reminder string tied around a finger....
@doctorb, the alarm went off on your experiment Saturday (12/14/19). I for one, am anxiously awaiting the results. Have you had time to split and check the moisture content yet?
Steve
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

Old Greenhorn

Yes, do tell we are waiting with baited breath. ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

doctorb

Thank you guys for the reminder.  We've had a couple of very wet rainy/snow days here, with another to follow tomorrow.  I assure you, I am not trying to skew the results, but I see no reason to split wood and perform the final readings in the rain.

The experiment remains intact.  The logs have not been moved from their various locations, and we will see if these locations have made any difference in the measured moisture content sometime this week.

Thanks for your continued interest.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Rebarb

Didn't take time to read through all posts, sorry.
Oak is my primary wood source and can tell you 1st hand, it takes a couple years to season from green, no matter what method you use, especially white Oak.


Al_Smith

The nice thing about oak is the fact it coals up nice .The coals actually produce the most heat and almost no smoke .Fact I have the insert loaded up right  now with gnarly oak stump wood .It will burn a long time .Come morning,put on the coffee,open the draft,toss on some ash and let-er  rip .Toasty 

Magicman

 

 
This is the Red Oak that I cut & split in February, 2018.  It stayed stacked here for a couple of months before I moved it to the wood shed.  I have no idea what the moisture content is but when a stick goes to coals, I add another stick.  fire_smiley  
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Rebarb

That Red is almost to pretty to burn. Lol

I was one of those that argued, Oak could efficiently burn in a year until I cut one green.

Al_Smith

I've got a huge pile of white oak typical tree trimmer style .30" in diameter and 4-6 foot long loaded into a dump truck with a skid loader and dumped off .
Obviously I'll have to cut it to length .When I do I'll guarantee those rounds in spite of the fact they laid in a pile for seven years will have moisture still with in the log .As such we're talking two years at least .

Magicman

With the exception of sawmill slabs/trimmings, I avoid using White Oak firewood for that reason.  It (almost) never dries.  :-\  Of course I also have an unlimited source of Red Oak.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Al_Smith

You just have to split it smaller to get it to dry out .
Been some time ago, maybe 1982 as an experiment I cut into a cull white oak log left behind from a cut made in 1937 .The outside 2" was rotted but below that you could have made lumber from it .It just doesn't dry out in the log . 

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