I am currently engaged in some forestry and logging work on my property in central Georgia. I thought the membership might be interested in how it is done in the South since logging practices differ considerably depending on what part of the world you live in.
I am having a first thinning done on 50 acres of loblolly pine plantation that I established in February 1998. This stand is just finishing its 12th growing season. Given the density of the stand, it needs thinning to keep the crowns full and healthy and to remove poor quality trees. Needles grow wood, so it is time to thin when the live crown ratio (length of green growing crown divided by total height) begins to fall below 40% and the total height reaches 35 - 40 feet. Here is a pic of the unthinned stand:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2287.JPG)
Here is a shot of the thinned stand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2297.JPG)
Every fifth row was removed and trees were thinned from the adjoining four rows with a felleerbuncher with a sawhead. The trees are skidded to a log deck where they are delimbed with a chain flail delimber called a Delimbinator. The skidder takes the logging slash, tops, limbs, and needles and re-distributes this material in the cut rows to put the nutrients back on the site and to create a protective layer on the soil. Here is a pic of the Tigercat fellerbuncher and another pic of the sawhead which is a rotating disc with replaceable teeth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2302.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2303.JPG)
Whoever is doing the work, Danny is doing a outstanding job as I don't see any scuffed trees in that pic. I hate catfaces and pine beetles! >:(
I bet every logger in the South wishes their thinning jobs were as clean as your plantation is. You have done a admirable job of keeping it up. I guess that comes from being a knowledgeable forester.
I am coming over there one day as I would love to see your place.
Don
Here is a shot of the take-out row for the skidder with some of the logging slash that has been re-deposited.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2281.JPG)
Here is the Tigercat skidder with a grapple full of trees being delivered to the delimbinator.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2298.JPG)
Here is the loader using the delimbinator to flail off the limbs and needles. This is not a delicate process! You can hear the flail from more than a mile away. Also here is a pic of the business end of the delimbinator. It is a rotating shaft with chains afixed. The shaft rotates at high speed, the tree tops are pulled into the flail, and all DanG breaks loose!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2299.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2306.JPG)
The wood is loaded with the butts both ways on the trailer to keep the load level and to assure a full payload since the delimbed trees are short. Mills that will take the wood loaded both ways really help the logger to maximize the ability to get full payloads in first thinnings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2289.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2290.JPG)
CAn I borrow them things?
Looking at that I see I have a long way to go with my trees.
Great Job!
Thanks Don. This logger is one of the best in the South at doing this. He has a 3 man crew that produces 10 - 12 loads per day. It pays to deal with the best.
This plantation is so clean because it was established on an old pasture. However, good site preparation is key. This pasture was subsoil ripped down to 20" and the young trees were sprayed with herbicide to control the pasture grass. The trees really grew like gangbusters ;D. Here is a pic of a stump of one of the dominant trees that was removed. In one of the early years, there was up to 2" of diamater growth 8).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2301.JPG)
Raider, let me know when you need some harvesting done and we will load up and come to Tennessee ;D.
Thanks WDH great tutorial 8)
I am surprised that flail doesn't take a lot of wood with the bark/limbs.
Danny, I can see from the growth rings that they really took off. They will do that again now with the open crown. you are on your way to a fine stand of quaility poles and sawlogs. ;D ;D
Don
My 35 acres of loblolly pine was planted by bowater but not in rows like yours. To me they seem to be pretty bunched in.
You bring the gear, I'll supply the beer
Looks exactly like it's done here in north louisiana. Even the equipment is pretty much the same. I use a local crew owned by 3 brothers, all third generation loggers. They know their stuff..
I'm wondering what my growth rings look like. I planted in '05 and now have 6" trees. They've grown 3' to 5' in height this year. I know for sawlogs, they frown on wide growth rings.
Now are you going to prune what's left?
Stonebroke
Stonebroke,
I have done some pruning in the past as this is standard practice for my company that I work for, so I am very familiar with it. I am considering it. It cost about $125 per acre to do this, so the investment is not insignificant.
WDH, what outfit did your thinning? Looks like a real nice job. I visited Georgia a few years ago, I was surprised at the amount of logging you folks have going on down there. Definately different methods, you rarely see a flail delimber up here for instance. Most wood up here moves either 100" or tree length.
WDH, did you get any return on the cut wood? Or is thinning a total expense?
Gday
Nice Block of pine you have there for 12yo Wdh 8) 8) and you have a good crew on the job aswell which makes all the difference Mate ;)
We've had Limbarkers downunder since about 90/91 Morbark Aust built acouple of the first ones for a contractor running their largest chiparvestors infeld that was sending export chip strait from the block they where getting under .0025% bark content using them inline with the chipper ;)
What sort of rotation are you getting out of your pine plantations overthere mate as it looks like your's runn alot like we do downunder usualy T1 @ 12 to 15 yo pulp n post material at about 100 ton to the acre ,T2 @ 20 to 22yo 60 ton+ sawlog and about 50 ton of pulp and clearfell at 30 to 35 yo at about 250 to 300 ton sawlog and 30 to 60 ton of pulpwood to the acre and a avv dbh of about 22" to 30" dia ;)
Good Unthinned blocks downhere runn at about the 300 to 400 ton to the acre at the 30 to 40 yo mark we have huge areas of unthined private plantations around here that had the att they needed ::) i pay around the $5 to $10 a ton mark for unthinned clearfell depending on the quality of the block ;)
James with the return on T1 down here its basicly at cost recovery to get stand improvement you usually hear around the $0.50 cents a ton figure for pulp in general Mate
Regards Chris
Well Done!
Barbender,
The logging company is Edwards Timber. In fact, when I managed procurement for the pulpmill here (which I did up to about 8 years ago), we had 40 crews logging for us. This is one of the crews that we helped start up, and it is satisfying to see them prosper. The only issue that I have had in the past is that none of the crews wanted to be the one to cut my timber because they were concerned that they could not meet my high expectations :D.
MM,
That rotation you described is spot on! That is exactly my plan with this stand and the others that I have that are younger and older. However, our site productivity, while about the best in North America, is nowhere near as good as what I saw in Australia. I had the opportunity to benchmark logging in Australia and New Zealand as part of my job, and if y'all are interested, I can post some pics of what I found. There is one memorable tract that I vividly remember right near the coast just south of MT Gambier that was incredible. Your productivity for pine (introduced radiata pine) is among the best in the world. The large scale logging there is also in the same class as the best in Brazil. (BTW, I love your Country! The meat pies we had in Tumut were wonderful ;D).
Sprucegum,
There is a little wood loss with the flail. The more you leave the top of the tree in the flail, the more the chains beat the DanG out of it, and the more breakage and wood loss you experience. These guys do this day in and day out, and they have the process perfected. I believe that I have a pic that shows the results to the flail, and if so, I will post it.
FF,
So far 32 acres have been cut. Volume removed was 26.5 tons per acre. The stumpage price (what I receive from the Mill) is $8.75/ton. Return to me is $232/acre. So, it is not a fortune, but it more than paid for all the cost to site prepare and plant the stand, so I am in the black at this point 8).
I would love to see your Ponderosa one day WDH. :)
That is a fine idea, and bring one of the DanG hams :D :D. I will pass on the chicken feet :).
Surely you drive up I-75 on some of your excursions. I am only 10 miles from I-75, so it is easy to get here.
Wow. We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee. We Won't make that mistake again. ;)
Is that Southern Yellow Ponderosa? :)
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
Wow. We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee. We Won't make that mistake again. ;)
Sautee, as in Rabun County?
I too have been working on a pine plantation thinning in the north country. My job is on state land and is on top of a bluff overlooking the Mississippi River about 18 miles north of Winona, MN. I started about the first of July and expect to be done in the next week.
There is 38 acres along the top of the bluff with Norway Pine on the south side of the trail and White Pine on the north side. The area is extremely irregular on both sides of the trail down the center of the bluff and closer to the edge is an area of mixed hardwoods where they could not use the tractor and planter when the DNR planted this stand about 40 years ago.
A picture of the Red (Norway) Pine taken early this spring before everything greened up. I think the Basal Area was about 160 with 100 BA desired when finished thinning.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-1.jpg)
A picture of the White Pine at the same time. There was considerable mortality and the blister rust has taken its toll. On the White Pine, the final BA was 80 desired.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minniesk-.jpg)
Here is a picture taken when I started showing the Red on the left and the White Pine on the right. There is one row of Red Pine on the other side of the road for some unknown reason. Notice how much light is getting into both stands.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-3.jpg)
This is what the Red Pine looks like after thinning. A little more light is getting to the forest floor but not as much as in WDH's stand. For the most part the forester was measuring 11 with his little gauge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-4.jpg)
I too took one row and thinned two on either side for a total of five rows per pass. All of the wood was processed right in the woods with a harvester and cut to 100 inch lengths. Here is the equipment that did the work. This is all a one man operation. I can cut, process, pick up, load, and haul one semi load a day as the pulp mill is 156 miles away. However about 3 loads per week is all this old man can do. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minneiska-Camp.jpg)
The bid estimates for the job called for 96 cords of Norway, 67.5 cords of white, and 78 cords of mixed hardwoods to be cut. the estimate for Norway was off quite a bit most likely because of the widely varying density and area along the ridge. I think I have cut about 230 cords of Norway so far with some cleanup left to do. The White pine and hardwoods estimates are closer to estimates and still to be determined. I am just getting used to the computer in the harvester and it can tell me some amazing things on a job like this. It will give me the diameters and number of sticks in each diameter range. I don't have a copy here right now, but I remember seeing the average diameter for the Norway Pine was 5.9 inches. Yes, it even has a printer right in the machine to print a summary of the job. ;D
This is a very spectacular place. From where the equipment sits, it was 1.9 miles down a narrow road cut into the side of the bluff to the landing where the truck was parked. And on the top, here was the end of the road.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-5.jpg)
Along one of the roads out on the bluff, there was this place to stop.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-6.jpg)
And looking down river you can see Lock and Dam No. 5 and Winona in the haze in the background.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-7.jpg)
And across the river is Wisconsin and to the left is Wabasha, MN. This bluff is about 300 feet in elevation over the river.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-8.jpg)
Gary, that is a beautiful place. I did not realize that you worked alone to accomplish all the functions, even hauling. That makes you busier than a one legged man in a DanG kicking contest :D.
With all the limbs, I bet the processor is a pleasure to use. Your thinned areas look great. I am sure that the State is well pleased!
That is pretty indeed. I did not know you had hills like that in MN. I thought it was pretty flat up there.
The extreme upper Mississippi River is a place I want to go fishing before I die.
Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on September 19, 2009, 01:13:16 AM
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
Wow. We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee. We Won't make that mistake again. ;)
Sautee, as in Rabun County?
Yes, just outside of Helen.
WDH, I did not plan to be the sole operator on this job but the guy that helps me sometimes could not help for a number of reasons. From the edge of the stand it takes an hour and 20 minutes to drive the forwarder down the hill to the landing, load the wood on the truck and return. It takes 3 trips for a semi load so there is four hours of the day gone.
On your stand, how did you determine how much to cut? Is it by basal area or spacing? The forester on my job wanted me to get a ten factor gauge but I just went by guess and by golly. He said I was very consistent at between 10 and 11 and always said I could take one more tree. Truth be told, I went by spacing and took the row in front of me and just opened up the spacing between trees taking the forked and deformed ones first. In the White pine stand it was almost impossible to see the rows and I just started with the infected trees and meandered thru where I could. Then I went back and opened up dark areas by taking more trees.
The White pine did better than the Red and there were some 18 inch diameter trees. The Red would have done better if the DNR had thinned them earlier as they were supressed by the crowed spacing. Blister rust had thinned the White pine but there was a lot of invaders in the stand like elm, boxelder, and ash.
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 19, 2009, 10:44:52 AM
Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on September 19, 2009, 01:13:16 AM
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
Wow. We passed by your place on several occasions on the way up to Sautee. We Won't make that mistake again. ;)
Sautee, as in Rabun County?
Yes, just outside of Helen.
I know that area well. Just up the road a bit from here.
Gary How far do you forward it to take that long? Is it really worth it or did they give you a good deal?
Stonebroke
Gary, in this case, I view basal area as more important than spacing as long as the spacing is not extreme. I was shooting for about 60 square feet of basal area for this first thin. This is about equal to 175 trees/acres on a perfectly square spacing of 16 feet between trees. Of course, the spacing is not square, so we shoot for the correct basal area and trees/acres, and everything works out. This is a lower basal area than most would be comfortable with, but my experience has been that to get the best diameter growth, you have to let the remaining crowns be free to grow. Loblolly will naturally prune much better than the norway and white pine, so that is an advantage to jump-start diameter growth for us in the South.
The stand in this pic was thinned to 50 square feet at age 13 (in 2000). It is age 20 in this pic, and you can see the good diameter growth. However, to be fair, this stand was hand pruned to 18 feet (by yours truly), and it was fertilized with ammonium nitrate at age 13, so these results may not be typical.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Post1_IMG.jpg)
In general, my opinion is that most people are too conservative in their thinning, leaving too many trees to get the best individual tree growth and product lift. For example, if pulpwood is worth 1, then small logs (we call this small log Chip-n-saw) is worth 2 - 2.5, and sawlogs (14" DBH and up) are worth 4.5. This index is based on a typical timber market. The moral is that you cannot afford to grow a bunch of low value pulpwood stems. The key is to hit the sweet spot and get maximum diameter growth without sacrificing stem quality to get to the sawlog stage as soon as possible. The average diameter of this stand is pushing 12" in 2007, so I am getting close. After the next thin, I will be there on many of the residual stems. Some are there already in 2009.
How big can you let the trees grow down south? I imagine after all the work of thinning and pruning you would want to go for a relatively big tree.
Stonebroke
That's some fine work there by you gentlemen. Shows some pride and expertise in what you do and what you are looking after. I was also wondering about your forwarding distances Gary. With any harvesting on sites we have been brushing, it appears they have not forwarded longer than 600 meters to a landing and mostly under 300 meters. This was virgin forest before harvest. We are just spacing the natural regen, mostly red spruce some places a lot of fir and black spruce to. These spruce species don't put on girth very quick, the fir is usually 2-3 times the girth. And some places the fir isn't worth snot. We are working on a fill plant right now though, black spruce was filled into red spruce and balsam fir naturals. Sure a lot of double stemmed planted trees. ::) But, I have been brushing an acre and a half a day. Works out to $272 a day. ;D This is a 110 acre site.
Quote from: stonebroke on September 20, 2009, 12:04:28 PM
How big can you let the trees grow down south? I imagine after all the work of thinning and pruning you would want to go for a relatively big tree.
Stonebroke
The forest industry is the South has moved rotation age down and down over the last 15 years. Most are targeting for a rotation age of 26 -28 years. With conventional thinning stocking, this results in trees that are in the 12" - 14" DBH range. With my more aggressive thinning and pushing the rotation age out to 30 - 32 years, I am targeting for a 16" - 18+" final harvest DBH. Economics has driven the rotation down for industry, and while economics are important to me, I have other objectives like promoting wild turkey, deer, and quail habitat. I have a very healthy turkey population. The other day while in the woods, I saw 9 gobblers cross the woods road in single file about 15 feet apart. I also flushed a wild covey of quail, and that warmed my heart. The turkey, deer, and quail benefit from the heavier thinning coupled with the use of prescribed fire. In the understory, there are many grasses, herbs, and forbs that provide the quality food for the wildlife. I am sacrificing just a little in terms of maximum timber volume production, but I am hoping to make that up with better timber diameter and a thriving wildlife population. I do not hunt much anymore, but my son in law and nephew provide me with venison ;D. I have not let anyone hunt the turkeys and quail, but I will encourage my son in law to take a shot at a gobbler this spring since I believe the population is very healthy.
The sad thing is, if you had to go and buy the land at the market price today and grow timber as an objective with the intent to show a return on investment, and if you include the price of the bare land and assume there is no future real estate or development value, you would be better off putting your money in CD's. However, somebody has to own land, and if you do own land with the intent of holding on to it, then it makes sense to aggressively manage the timber resource.
Sorry for the long response to a short, simply question :).
I would think after pruning you could go for a 24 to 36 inch tree that would be mostly valuable clear wood. Or don't you have the premium for clear that we have in white pine?
Stonebroke
No, the premium does not justify the time it would take to get that size. The natural white pines that are the size you mention may be 75 to 100 years old or more. You cannot afford to grow wood that size commercially in a plantation environment in this area.
Quote from: stonebroke on September 20, 2009, 07:13:36 AM
Gary How far do you forward it to take that long? Is it really worth it or did they give you a good deal?
Stonebroke
Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 20, 2009, 01:21:37 PM
I was also wondering about your forwarding distances Gary. With any harvesting on sites we have been brushing, it appears they have not forwarded longer than 600 meters to a landing and mostly under 300 meters.
Forwarding distances are a huge problem on most of these pine job in SE MN. There are a lot of these pine plantations on scattered parcels that are access challenged and in bad need of thinning. Here is a picture I took earlier this spring when I orignally looked at this job. The green area is my landing on state land and the one lane minimum maintenance road you see goes up along the side of that hill to a crest, makes a sharp left turn and goes back down along another side hill, all on state land. Then it makes another sharp horseshoe turn to the left and makes a steep climb along another side hill to the top with one sharp right turn to the right, with that part on private land. Trust me, it's no place for a semi with a 45 foot flatbed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-9.jpg)
The job has been very good one with very low stumpage prices because of the poor access and because there was over twice the volume of red pine that was on the sale bill. The down side has been the long forwarder travel and those machines are just not made for that, and the distance to the mill. I have now taken 25 semi loads of about 26 tons each from this job since the first of July for an average of two loads per week. Even in these slow thinning jobs that harvester should easily cut two loads per day.
I am just finishing my thinning job this week. Just some cleanup of small skipped pockets on the pine and some Aspen to cut around the edges to remove. Here is what the red Pine looks like. I was told by the forester that it came out at a basal area of 11 on his ten factor prism. His target was 100 or 10 on the prism.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-10.jpg)
And here is the White Pine on the other side of the road. Target BA was 80 or 8 and actual is about 9. Blister rust had thinned it already causing those open areas.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Minnieska-11.jpg)
I am just amazed when I compare this stand with yours, WDH. If these tracts were thinned to your levels, the buck thorn and other brush would take over. In fact the job I just finished prior to this one was on a small tract of European Larch that was about 30 years old that had done well but the pests were starting to thin it out too much. And the brush was so tall that even sitting in the cab of the harvester, many times I could see over the junk to find the trees. I usually had to drive the brush down first to see what to cut. Here is a picture from that job with the obvious uncut areas on the left. You can see the tangled brush that had grown up where the Larch had died back too much.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Isinours.jpg)
Or WDH, is is just more agressive management that prevent your stands from turning into something like this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Isinours-2.jpg)
Gary, there are two reasons that I can go down to lower BA than what you see in your area. One is that with the original density before thinning, the lower branches have died and are no longer green. The are dead, so when you open up the stand to more sunlight, the crown responds, but the lower bole is not affected since loblolly does not epicormic branch (where you get new branches sprouting from the bole or trunk like you see in hardwoods). In your conifer species, you have more live limbs lower on the bole at the same size and density as loblolly, so you cannot thin as aggressively else you might end up with wolfy limby trees.
The second reason is prescribed fire. That keeps the hardwood brush from getting established and forming a dense understory. This whole country down here was previously fire adapted before European settlement. The native americans used fire to keep the woods clean. Most landowners down here do not use fire anymore, and the public perceives fire as bad. However, it is a powerful management tool in southern pine.
Most foresters in the South are more comfortable with a first thinning in the 70 - 80 basal area range which is 7 to 8 trees using the 10-factor prism. So, that is about 25-30% lower than what you see in your area. The most significant difference is the growth characteristics of the target species, norway/red/white pine versus loblolly pine.
I am getting ready to cut another loblolly stand and the forester is wanting to use basal area this time. I ve never used it so it will be a differnt learning curve. It is a firest thinning.
Basal area is diameter dependent, so once you know tha average diameter of the trees, you can convert the basal area target to a pretty good estimate of trees/acre. Here is how you do it.
Assumptions: Lets say the BA target is 70 square feet. Also lets assume that the average DBH of the trees to be left is 7".
BA per tree = .005454 x DBH squared
BA per tree = .005454 x 49 (7" squared)
BA per tree = .2673
So, to get to a total BA of 70 with the average tree having a BA of .2673, simply divide the BA target of 70 by the BA/tree of .2673 and the trees/acre = 262
To leave a perfect spacing while leaving 262 trees/acre, the perfect square spacing would be 13 feet by 13 feet. This is determined by taking the number of square feet of area in an acre of 43560 and dividing by 262 trees. So each tree occupies 166 square feet of area. The square root of 166 is 12.89 feet.
Good luck with the basal area experiment! Keep us posted on how it works out.
Semologger, get the forester out there when you start or shortly thereafter and have him measure how you are doing. Even though as WDH said the BA is diameter dependent, I just went by spacing. In order to get the machine thru, I took one row and thinned two rows on either side. But with your more open stands and if you do not have a boom machine, you may not have to take a row.
But from the cab, my main thing to look for was spacing. First trees to cut were poor form trees and then space out trees to about ten feet minimum. Then you have to account for more open areas to adjust you spacings there. After you cut for a while, you eye is the best thing to use for that same look to the woods after you cut. Instead of looking at open areas, look for how many stems that block your view. And remember BA is the average over the area. You can have thick and thin areas.
On that job I am just finishing, it is part of a FSC audit this Thursday. Just happens the MN DNR is being audited this week. The forester on my job has said that I've nothing to worry about. Apparently none of the auditors are foresters. One is a botantist from CA. Another DNR Forester told me when he heard that the FSC Auditors were NOT coming to any of his jobs, he danced a little jig. 8)
QuoteApparently none of the auditors are foresters. One is a botantist from CA
I think that combination would cause me to worry a lot. ;D
Being from CA is a worry in itself.
Not being a forester is a second worry.
Being a botanist and maybe thinking he/she needs to show off their authority is a third worry.
But don't worry, I'll do it for you ;D ;D ;D
WDH Does thinning to 70 BA ever cause you problems with blowdown?
Stonebroke
No, not at that stocking unless there is a hurricane. With a hurricane, all bets are off.
I am taking out ever 4th row on this job. We are wanting that over ever 3rd row if we have another ice storm again sometime. I started today and the average tree size is 8 inches to 10 inch. That varys in some areas. the forester is coming out in the morning and ill get some more info on what he wants done. I am going to have him mark a couple a little so i can get an eye for what spacing he is wanting to get. i am used to just doing select cut on short leaf pine thats not planted of around a 16 foot base. I will be using a my 221 hydro ax shear. Its a 3 wheeler machine like a bell. I am almost done putting in my post peeler mill. I have a market for 3 inch to 8 inch post. I am going to be running it and buying the wood from my dad soon as its running.
I am thinking of planting a 35 acre field at my house in loblolly here pretty soon. I dont plan on getting any cows and all i do with the field is have my friends cut the hay off it just to keep it from growing up on me. but they only cut it once a year and its grown up again now.
Quote from: semologger on September 30, 2009, 11:08:59 PM
I am thinking of planting a 35 acre field at my house in loblolly here pretty soon. I dont plan on getting any cows and all i do with the field is have my friends cut the hay off it just to keep it from growing up on me. but they only cut it once a year and its grown up again now.
That's the logic that I used before planting my open fields. My tree farm is 46 miles away. No way could I maintain a cattle herd. I rented it out for a few years, but there was no long term plan. I finally came to the decision that I needed a plan for the land's future. In '05, I planted Lobloly seedlings. Then in '08, I planted Oaks in the bottomland. I now have the place registered as a Certified Tree Farm.
How long will loblolly grow? I've got 35 acres of it that bowater planted. I assume they use it due to fast growing but does it reach a point where it will start to die off?
It will last over a hundred years, but after about 50 to 70 years, mortality will equal or exceed growth so that you end up with a negative growth rate. That is not good for a forestry investment.
Hey, Magicman, I live just down the road in Purvis south of Hattiesburg- couple of questions of general interest for us newbie tree herders: first, what type of oaks did you plant and why- for harvest or just to beautify and feed the wildlife? Second, how does one go about becoming a certified tree farm? I have a little over fifty acres under various kinds of tree growth- some was part of tree farming but that was all volunteer and not managed much at all. thanks for the help
Lj
WDH,
Good looking job there. I'm a few clicks north of you in South Central Virginia. We're on the northern edge of the loblolly range. Up this way ice is a major concern. We tend to leave a little heavier stocking in our plantations to help minimize the damage. Our growing season is a little shorter so our typical thinning age is 14-15. We'll leave 80-85 sq ft of basal area and have a second thinning down the road.
Do you have any experience with the CSI delimber? It is a combination flail / pull through. I like it considerable better than the Chambers. It is a good piece of equipment for both quality and production. My biggest thinning contractor uses one. He can consistently process 30 loads a day through it in average wood.
Wudman
Wudman,
I do not have any experience with the combo pull-thru and flail. It looks like the CSI is much more productive than the Chambers. Can you take some pictures?
You are sure right about the ice! We lost a huge amount of timber to ice in SE Oklahoma and SE Arkansas about 10 years ago in the big Christmas ice storm. You folks in that area surely remember it; it was devastating. Shortleaf is native to that area, but Industry liberally planted loblolly in that area. There was a reason that loblolly did not naturally grow there, and it was because of ice. You can't fool Mother Nature :).
Ice is a factor for around here also but i am going to take a chance. The job i am on the forester wants to leave the basal area of 120 to 150 for possible ice damage. The ice storm we had last year hurt it a little in places but it was thick enough it only hurt certain areas. The land owner said it went thru another ice storm a few years back. I could tell because alot of the crowns on the trees are double forked or crooked.
The forester showed me how to use a prizm to tell basal area and that was pretty neat. I am going to have to find one to use. He also showed me how to use my finger but thats a little tougher to get it exact like the prizm. I will try and get some pitchures of the job one of these days. Its just me and my dad working right now and i had to cut then jump on the skidder and skid in. I did skid in close to 60 ton today and cut around 90 so it wasnt to bad of day. I cut till i couldnt see the trees in front of me it gets dark in a loblolly stand let me tell ya. I was wishing i had my lights on the cutter still.
Quote from: ljmathias on October 01, 2009, 12:35:38 PM
what type of oaks did you plant and why- for harvest or just to beautify and feed the wildlife?Lj
I planted 2K Cherrybark Red Oak, 2K Shumard Oak, and 1K Swamp Chestnut. The first two are strictly for cash crops. The Swamp Chestnut is not the best "White Oak", but it makes a big old tree with some big old acorns. Incidentally, the Swamp Chestnut seedlings seem to be outgrowing the others. At least for now. Some are nearly 5' tall and some Shumards are about 4'. The varieties are planted at random
By the way,
never state that you plant for beauty, wildlife, or the children or grandchildren. Then it becomes a "hobby" and the IRS will dis-allow any tax deductions, etc. that you may have claimed.... >:(
Quote from: ljmathias on October 01, 2009, 12:35:38 PM
how does one go about becoming a certified tree farm?Lj
You have a county forester who will handle that, but go online to MFA's website and you should find a link to becoming a Certified Tree Farm. I sat down with our county forester, and he input the particulars of my place. I then went home and wrote my plan. The next day we finished the computer stuff. We then scheduled and made a visit to my farm, afterwhich I got my sign and in a few weeks, I got my certificate.
What are the benifits of being a certified tree farm? Any tax breaks?
Quote from: semologger on October 01, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
The forester showed me how to use a prizm to tell basal area and that was pretty neat. I am going to have to find one to use. He also showed me how to use my finger but thats a little tougher to get it exact like the prizm.
Just go to the woodshed and grab a piece of 1" hardwood, cut it 2"x 2" and take out a 3/4" wide x 1" deep notch section in the middle to form a kind of site with the 3/4" width in the upright side. Drill a hole at it's base adjacent to the cutout. Tie a 25" length string in it knotted on the back side make it a little over 50" long, loop it, and make a necklace out of it to hang around your neck. But, make sure when it's tied you have 25" length measured from the back side of the wood block to your eye ball when wearing it around your neck. There, you have an angle gauge of BAF (basal area factor) 10 ft
2/acre and didn't cost ya a thing. You can make a 10 BAF with any length string as long as you divide by 33 to get the cutout width, or the BAF changes and no longer a 10. Each "in" or count tree (as big or bigger than the width of the site cutout) represents 10 ft
2/acre.
Swampdonkey: fantastic description; problem is, I'm a visual thinker- got any pictures?
Lj
Thanks, Magic- looks like something I should do, if for no other reason to keep the IRS out of my pocket... but also to do it right. So I found the brochure (http://www.msforestry.net/pdf/MSTreeFarmBrochure.pdf) but it doesn't have an example of a written management plan- any examples you know of I can access easily? or should I just send in my application and see what the inspector says?
Thanks again.
Lj
Quote from: ljmathias on October 02, 2009, 07:42:53 AM
Swampdonkey: fantastic description; problem is, I'm a visual thinker- got any pictures?
Lj
I second that motion. I m the same way. Thanks Swamp donkey i am going to have to try it. First i am going to ask a friend thats a retired forester if he has one. hee hee.
Semo
Quote from: ljmathias on October 02, 2009, 07:54:31 AM
should I just send in my application and see what the inspector says?Lj
Just send the app. in. The plan thing will show up when you and the county forester do your "computer thing".
Quote from: semologger on October 01, 2009, 10:33:29 PM
What are the benifits of being a certified tree farm? Any tax breaks?
Just a "pride" thing for me, but you do get a magazine. I'm president of the Lincoln County Forestry Ass'n this year, and wanted to be doing everything that I encourage others to do.
Lj
Magicman, OneWithWood, and myself all have certified tree farms. There may be others, and if so, speak out!
One nice benefit that has not been mentioned is that the Tree Farm System has recieved Environmental Certification because of the requirements that have to be met. So, when and if you sell wood, that wood is "certified" to meet the Best Management Practices that protect water quality and promotes diversity, wildlife habitat, etc. Today, this certification does not mean a whole lot in the marketplace, but it could be important in the future.
In a recent timber sale that I made, I received the offer for the thinning by the ton. The buyer told me that they had begun to track how much certified and uncertified wood they were buying. I told him that my Tree Farm was certified and asked if that would command a better price. He listened to me, then raised my price by 25 cents a ton :). Not much, but better than a stick-in-the-eye ;D. On what I expect to harvest, the 25 cents a ton will translate to about an additional $450.
Yup, a picture from my gallery.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Angleguage.jpg)
It looks like a site, held upright. You can see the string hole to determine your distance from your eye with your string. Distance is measured from the back of the gauge toward your eye. I say that because as anyone knows when looking down a hallway or far end of the room, the depth converges. As depth or thickness of the gauge increases the far end of the 3D figure (and open ended box basically) compresses in two dimensions.
You can make the width of the site any width, as long as it's 1/33rd of string length. Actually, multiply by 33 to get the string length. Assuming a Basal Area Factor 10 ft2/acre is desired. Been lots of discussion on it in the forum over the years.
The pivot point your forester showed you with the prism is the position of the prism itself, usually held over a 4.5 foot high stick. The refracted angle when light bends through that wedge prism, determines if the tree is a count when image of one eye looking through the prism touches or over laps image in the naked eye not viewing the prism. So keep both eyes open with your prism or the optics are screwed. :D Well not really, you can see the displacement in the prism image as the top and bottom of the but log/bolt is seen with the prism image between. With prisms, I've seen them used incorrectly many times. The guy will be standing there and holding the prism making a big sweep in a circle changing the actual point centre as he makes the big swing with his arm as he turns. Need some ballet music? :D :D
With an angle gauge the pivot point is at the eye. It's the angle from the pupil of the eye to the inside edges of that site you cut out. So make a 360 turn at your feet to tally the count trees. A stick here also helps maintain the point position your pivoting around.
You fellas will be armed and dangerous now, won't be able to keep ya out of the woods. :D :D
On certified versus non certified, the mills told everyone around here not to expect an extra dime extra on price. They, more specifically their customers, expect more for nothing.
Sounds like farming. :D :D :D
So when you sight through this device what am I looking for as far as the trees go? If theres a simple answer for a total novice.
I know I have a lot of thinning to do.
Your looking to determine the breast height (4.5 feet) basal area in that parcel of woods (stand of homogenous trees). You have your string on your gauge that limits how far you extend your gauge, it must be extended the full length of the string when looking at each tree trunk. You want to look at the tree trunks, as close as you can estimate it, at breast height. Your standing at the point centre and that tree might be 30 feet away, so you just estimate the 4.5 feet position on the tree. Some mark a horizontal paint line on the tree if working with a partner. This is pretty much for flat landers. If your on quite a hill it gets complicated, because you have to maintain a point centre as you do a 360 degree sweep.
Count trees and correct for slope for trees on borderline or ones just out.
1) An "in tree" for your tally is one that when looking through the site, the trunk in filling the site (cut out area). If the tree trunk does not fill that cutout then it's not a count.
Most thinnings are based on basal area numbers (and quality), such as thinning down to 90 ft2/acre or the stand before thinning has 240 ft2/acre. Don't take any points samples on stand edges where trees grow faster in girth next to fields or where you get an over lap of species like say sugar maple mixed in with cedar on the edge of both stand types. The basal area in northern white cedar can be 3 times that of a sugar maple stand for instance. You would want at least 3 maybe 4 samples in your smallest stand parcels.
2) You just keep track of the species of each tree (if you wish to), number of points you took tally in, and measure diameters of the tally trees (if you want to see the distribution of tree sizes min, max, average how many 20 inch trees) From your basal area you can even get density (if you measured diameters), how many trees per acre.
So, say I had 3 plots. Plot 1 had 15 trees, plot 2 had 18 trees, plot 3 had 13 trees. Add all the counted trees comes to 46 trees tallied. Divide that by 3 plots, I have an average of 15.3 trees/plot. Multiply that by 10 ft2/acre (that's Basal area factor from my angle gauge), comes to 153 ft2/acre.
If you wanted a rough estimate of density, you might figure your average tree size was 10 inches for example. You tallied 46 trees. Your BAF of the gauge is 10 ft2/acre. Find the basal area of a 10" tree.
Simplified into a formula we get: (tally x BAF/(0.005454 x Diameter2))/# points
=(46 trees x 10 ft2/acre/(0.005454 ft2/in2 x 10 in2)/ 3 points
=281 trees/acre
the 0.005454 is just a simplified constant. Comes from area of a circle converted from inches to feet.
3.14 ft2/in2
4 x 144
The danger in doing this without actually measuring tree diameters is most folks will estimate the average tree size at a lot higher than it is. They just see the big ones. :D
I've cruised a lot of maple woods, and some with a lot of 14" trees, but the average is usually still around 8". Let's see what that does to the density estimate assuming the same tally and # points. ;)
= (46 trees x 10 ft2/acre/(0.005454 ft2/in2 x 8 in2)/ 3 points
= 439 trees/acre
Quite a difference. ;D
Thanks for the info swampdonkey.
Thanks! I'm going to whittle one up this weekend, print out your directions and give it a try next trip!
If you guys are going to measure diameters, just measure to the nearest inch. It's not practical to tally say 10-3/4", just call it 11". You only concern yourself with precise measurements if you returning every few years to a permanent sample plot of fixed area. All you need is a carpenter's tape and measure circumference at 4.5 feet, get back home and divide each by pi (3.14) for diameter. The simplest approach to tally is make a table on sheet of paper. Along the top row is diameter classes 10 11 12 14 ...............
Along the left column is species names.
Use a dot tally we call it, where each cell contains a dot per count tree by the species row and corresponding diameter class column. So let's see, I have a 20" sugar maple. So, I look along my left column and find sugar maple, I go over to the column with the 20 class marked at the top, and make my mark with a pencil dot in the cell where the two intercept (row x column). It's just like a spread sheet. Makes stuff easy on Excel when you get back in a warm, dry building. ;D
12
* * is 4 trees in the 12" diameter class
* *
8
*-*
|X| is 10 trees in the 8" diameter class.
*-*
Using a gauge or prism your area is not fixed, the number of trees is determined by their size and how far they are from you. A whole lot of other information can be gathered to find out more about your stand, but involves trig, measure tapes, a level or some fashion and use of volume tables/equations and being able to estimate # of 16' saw log bolts in a tree. The math isn't rocket science, but takes a lot of practice.
One experienced DNR Forester that I work with on a lot of hardwood thinnings does not use a gauge at all. Just goes by eyeball measurement and it's amazing how well he can "see" what he wants for a final stand after thinning. His cruise vest will probably stand up on its own because of all the back spray from the tree paint.
Plus he's a pretty good cross country skier, hiker, and very good on snowshoes. So he has to take it easy on this old man if we walk out to look at some part of the job.
Yes, I agree Gary. You do it enough and you can mark in your sleep. :D
I used to torment my summer students a bit and tell'm what the diameter class that tree is before they get the tape on it. Used to ask me why they came along. For company, was the usual response. :D :D Loggers are often times asking me to come on a walk through on a lot to see what's there for wood. Many of the loggers are pretty good themselves, they just want a second set of eyes. I go through and tally up the basal area in my head on those types of walk throughs just as your Forester does. If they don't want the details, good enough by me. Often they just want a rough volume to buy the stumpage. Usually the older guys not borrowing to buy the stumpage, so they don't need to show the banker anything. Most often just reaffirms what they already think is there. When I marked lots for thinning for the Marketing Board, I never took a prism out very often.
When i get to peeling post and the guys stacking i have a bay for 3 inch up to 8 inch post. You will have to use a tape to measure the post for awhile then you can tell by just looking at the post on what size they are. I have done it awhile and can tell pretty fast what size post they are. This makes it nice when i am buying by the peice and not haveing to measure every one. Its weird how your eyes adjust.
I have an update on this thread. Since it dried out a bit this spring, we commenced to finish the first thinning on another tract that I own. I am also doing a second thinning since I have the logger on the property and he is set up to do both first thinning, second thinning, or clearcutting. This is an outstanding logger!
The stand that I am first thinning was planted in February of 1997, so it is 13 years old just entering the 14th growing season. This logger is cutting down every 7th row and thinning the 6 rows in between. This is a little unusual as you usually see every 4th or 5th row clearcut with thinning in between the clearcut rows. However, the stem quality in this stand was poor, so the 7th row thin gives the cutter more good trees to select from in the rows in between. I will post a pic of the stand tomorrow, but here is the loading deck with the loader and the chain flail delimber. The loading deck is located in a permanent wildlife opening that I allow to grow up in native weed and herbaceous plants for the quail and the rabbits:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2456.JPG)
The chain flail is in the background on the left side of the loader, and you can see the CTR delimber (which is a pull-thru delimber) on the right side at the end of the loader, and you can see the pile of limbs at the back of the delimber. The chain flail is used to delimb the smaller first thin trees, and the pull-thru CTR delimber is used to delimb the larger and older second thin trees. This logger has a nice setup.
I am also doing a second thinning, and here is a photo of the outstanding jog that this logger is doing. He is Alan Edwards of Edwards Timber Co. in Perry, GA, and you would be lucky to associate with a logger of this caliber. In this pic, the trees are 23 years old having been planted in 1987 and are entering their 24th growing season. I have posted a pic of this stand before on the prescribed burn thread a few years ago.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Homeplace2010.jpg)
It is hard to image that logging equipment even entered this stand since there is almost no evidence of disturbance. The only way that you can tell that the stand was thinned is to look down a skid corridor like this one:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/corridor.jpg)
I left about 110 trees/acre on this stand and they are nicely spaced after two thinnings. This stand was first thinned in 2000 at age 13.
The goal of silviculture is to maintain healthy even growth by altering the conditions through thinning to give the tree adequate space and light to maintain a fast and steady growth rate. This is the goal of forest management in Southern pine plantation forestry. It can also be the goal in Northern hardwood forest management. In this pic, if you count the rings, you can see that that this stem benefited from a first thinning at about age 12, and you might be able to see the response after thinning. Then keep counting and you will see that when you get to the last several years of growth, the growth rate had begun to drop dramatically, signaling the need for a second thinning for the stand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2460.JPG)
This tree indicates that the stand enjoyed conditions conducive to steady even growth up to the last few years where it has been extremely dry in Georgia. Now, this stand should resume a full steady growth rate once again.
As many of you know, I love trees and forestry ;D.
That looks like a very nice job to the stands. The cookies tell a lot of the story for sure. You are lucky to have a good logger to work with and for you.
Sure a big difference in growth compared to northern spruce-fir forest. At 13 years the spruce are only around 18 feet on good sites, some may be 20 feet. Not so great sites maybe only 8-12 feet. Anyway, count on mostly 16" of height growth/year on average up here. Not saying you won't get 3' a year up here, but it's not sustainable, just in spurts. Some of my spruce ground is just around 20' at 13 years, some only 12 -14'. It's almost impossible though for me to say exactly the age on some trees by memory alone, because I have inter-planted trees for years, plus the wild trees. :D So count whorls I guess, too small to bore. ;D
SD,
Another thing to take into account on these plantations is that they were established on old fields, so they do not represent the average forest condition that we see down here. First thinning ages are more in the 15 - 17 year range for the average plantation established on prior harvested and site preped ground.
Well Done!
Who makes the replaceable tooth cutter?
The one you see used the most around here is made by Tigercat.
Wow, most of my fir trees don't even grow that fast. He's doing a nice clean job on the thinning, too.
WDH - impressive job there for sure, but I have to say I love the bloodhound, lost my boy back this summer at 11.
Yes, I miss Miss Scarlet. She was my sawmill and woods dog. She was always so happy. Hard to believe that she has been gone almost 5 years.
Looks good! I no like to mark first thinnings, Id rather have that middle to walk in :D You marked it I assume?
No, I did not mark this stand. It was operator select. This was a very good logger.
Nice job. It; s funny to see trees in a row. We have some like that . I only know of one place that has rows of trees. All red pine , back in the day was for ATT poles. Our tree farms here are wild forest thinned out.
Then yes it is a great job. They took their time with it.
And cant blame you marking first thinnings sucks if you aint workin behind a cut down machine :D
I have marked some before in free thins where there are no cut-down rows taken out.
WDH,
Have you ever seen the CSI flail delimber in action? I prefer it to the Chambers. It is a highly productive machine and causes much less stem damage than the Chambers. I have a handfull of producers running them now. One of the local loggers designed it, but they have not been highly successful in marketing it. Take a look online if you haven't seen one in operation.
Wudman
For me its not so much having the space, but the machine usually tears down the worst of the bamboo vines
Wudman,
I have not seen the pull thru-flail combo in action. Is it mainly for first thinnings?
If you look back on this thread, these loblolly pines were planted in 1998, so they were in their 12th year at 1st thinning in 2009, which was the basis for this original thread. Now these trees are in their 21st year and are being thinned for a 2nd time. Average diameter of the leave trees is between 12" and 14" in DBH. Here is a look at the pre-thin stocking on May 10, 2018.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2368~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1526140212)
Same logger as last time in 2009. Same loading ramp.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2369~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1526140329)
Post thin stocking target is 50 to 60 square feet of basal area. This stocking is lower than most Foresters have been historically been comfortable with, but I am more aggressive than most. I want fewer, larger trees, less pulpwood, more future sawlogs. Remember that the 1st thinning was also at this lower stocking, so the diameters in this stand are already much larger than with the conventional approach.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2371~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1526140598)
Looks like about what we do in the PNW lots of first thinnings at 180 to an acre some are 160 an acre some areas will be lighter to weed out the pulp. The main difference is there's not much tree length thinning done anymore.
Nice job. After each thinning, the woods appear more mature after a spell. As a comparison, I would have 6-8" balsam fir in 25 years, if spaced 5-7'. ;)
It's interesting how the different regimes work. Locally no one does commercial thinning. The pines are planted close, heavily pruned for the first few years, then thinned to waste at 8-10 years. Final stocking at that point. You might be dropping 12" trees and leaving them to rot, but they are only pulp grade, and not worth the harvest is that's all you have. Also most of the plantations are on steeper ground, which makes any harvest more difficult.
Are they 10 inch at 16 foot? Looks like they are I get a many saw logs out of that the tops pulpwood.
A 12" spruce is studwood up here, tops down to 2-1/2-4" and sawdust for pulp. If there is a pulp glut than yes it could be left, but I have seen piles and piles sit for weeks then all the sudden move to the mill.
Nice to see such a well burned stand, WDH must own a good drip torch 8)
Poston mixes drip torch fuel by the truck tank full.
WDH, I hear from folks on the ground in your neck of the woods that there is going to be another push for cut to length down there.
Yes Sir, that is a fact. The 500 pound gorilla that owns 6 sawmills in the area are pushing all the Suppliers that way. Kicking and screaming.
WDH: why the kicking and screaming? Just the equipment costs? Or ? Seems to me that the SYP plantations in the south, say VA to MS/LA would be perfect for CTL. Worker training? I could see processor costs being much higher initially as there seems to be steep learning curve.
We use to do tree length pull through before CTL after all the extra labor and maintenance it's been cheaper doing CTL. The learning curve can be steeper but it can be picked up pretty quick.
Are the guys using dangles or fixed processor heads?
Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market.
Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2018, 07:18:15 AM
Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market.
They can use CTL to cut for all the markets though, right. I mean a CTL machine will fly through some pulp, it's what the rest of the world (except SE US) is moving towards. Especially now that the softwood mills are all designed to handle/intake small sawlogs, small ply logs, etc. But basically it is not just the $500k machine though, they need two $300k forwarders to keep up with each CTL processor?
Its like when you finally get the car paid off and it needs replaced. Dont we all say im gonna drive the wheels off this one?
When you finally get over the years it took to pay for the skidder and knuckleboom and trucks... Then they say its time to sell it all (to who if the whole region suddenly has to go CTL or quit?) And start over back at the bottom rung on the debt ladder.
How do you sleep at night thinking this one company had the power to force me into CTL.. And i have no guarantee they wont cut me off one i sign the mortgage on it. I know i couldnt.
Plenty of loggers live on $100k properties. How do you tell the wife youre gonna borrow $300k on a used machine just to have a job? The number suck.
Quote from: nativewolf on May 15, 2018, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2018, 07:18:15 AM
Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market.
They can use CTL to cut for all the markets though, right. I mean a CTL machine will fly through some pulp, it's what the rest of the world (except SE US) is moving towards. Especially now that the softwood mills are all designed to handle/intake small sawlogs, small ply logs, etc. But basically it is not just the $500k machine though, they need two $300k forwarders to keep up with each CTL processor?
You can cut any length you want we've cut 41' in the brush using a grapple track skidder to yard, up here there's guys using forwarders to yard 37' logs out. The main question becomes can the guys make it replacing a buncher, a pull through a skidder or two and all the guys into two machines in the brush? We went from 5 guys in the brush to two with 60 gallons or so a day of fuel use vs probably 150.
yeah, that is massive savings. 3 FTE's and 100 gallons a day. That's almost a $1000/day in fuel and labor. That pays a pretty large financing note, assuming you can keep them all working. Same production?
Theres another side of it.. Im sure theres a few crews out there thatve become family. How do you tell those few guys you dont need em anymore. Then have to see them with their kids out at walmart or the fair every few months. In the rural south thats reality.. You see every one in town once in a while. How do i go to thanksgiving dinner after i let my second cousin go to pay for a processor. I have a friend going through it right now over selling his septic business.
Small town living is the same nearly anywhere there is forestry work. I've worked from Pilpala Finland to Watersmeet MI to Essan, Thailand, to Wonju Korea. Some teams are family some family are teams....if they don't get efficient the team will get run over.
I predict pain for lots of folks with expensive new skidders. On the other hand in the next few years there may be some cheap good feller bunchers on the market.
I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable. I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable. 8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.
Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion. But i concede your predictions are probably right
Quote from: mike_belben on May 15, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable. I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable. 8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.
Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion. But i concede your predictions are probably right
Be on the lookout for some good used stuff in a few years if CTL comes to the south.
Quote from: nativewolf on May 15, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on May 15, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable. I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable. 8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.
Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion. But i concede your predictions are probably right
Be on the lookout for some good used stuff in a few years if CTL comes to the south.
Dem boys are hard on equipment down there.
The pulpmills in GA (and there is a scad of them, like 12 or 13) don't like cut to length pulp. They want treelength. Most sawmills will only take tree-length. It is all about what your markets want.
Sounds like they want the over run, can you guys cut 41' saw logs? Mills don't like CTL because you can figure lengths faster and based on a value better then by hand. Even if they want tree length do they want feathers and all? I'm amazed you guys can haul tree length down the highways.
Id have to go find my slip to be certain but im pretty sure pulp length here on the plateau is 15 to 25 ft, and 23" max, 4 or 6 inch min. I know it gets rehandled, probably to bowater(reliance FP) or possibly rocktenn. But i do see tree length going off the mountain to them all the time as well so i dunno.
I hauled one pulp load, took me all day to get it loaded because my forklift is horrible at it and i didnt have bobcat grapple at the time. I got like $110 and said never again. Id rather bring it home to my firewood pile.
Quote from: Skeans1 on May 15, 2018, 09:33:24 PM
Sounds like they want the over run, can you guys cut 41' saw logs? Mills don't like CTL because you can figure lengths faster and based on a value better then by hand. Even if they want tree length do they want feathers and all? I'm amazed you guys can haul tree length down the highways.
Yeah they clearly want the overrun. Of course the mills there in GA are the most efficient there are, they are pretty darn good at full tree utilization, bark, scrap & dust fuels, chip & saw recovery from butts, etc. Ok, in that case I can see the case for non ctl. But once it starts, the costs of running CTL should overwhelm the others unless the mills are going to pay more. Will be interesting to see it play out.
Frankly if I were a new mill and I said I wanted CTL and had a logger or two with the equipment I could setup to pay more for good clean logs proper lengths and all. Heck, I would think with data tools in the new processors I'd even be able to know exactly how much wood is coming to me every single hour of cutting. Maybe they do that already and I am slow.
If I knew exactly how much was coming and what dimensions I'd be able to figure out what I could cut and go ahead and pre-sell that on into the market in a forward contract. I'd never actually own much of the wood, no inventory at all.
The mill could have a smaller log staging area, everyone else would be your bank, and you'd sweep up all the wood you wanted as you could pay more.
One way to look at it is that the mill is placing the cost to cut the logs to the proper length before sawing on each logger.
In some areas, CTL has been the norm from the beginning. In most of the South where the main game is SYP, the mills moved from CTL many eons ago to tree length to reduce logging cost.
In many things in life, it is all a big circle. What goes around comes around.
Also, full tree utilization is a lot of soil mining. As a landowner I'd much rather see ctl and leave the tops.
Quote from: WDH on May 16, 2018, 07:44:20 AM
One way to look at it is that the mill is placing the cost to cut the logs to the proper length before sawing on each logger.
In some areas, CTL has been the norm from the beginning. In most of the South where the main game is SYP, the mills moved from CTL many eons ago to tree length to reduce logging cost.
In many things in life, it is all a big circle. What goes around comes around.
Right but did they ever have the modern dangle head processors/forwarders? I left plantation pine work 20 years ago so I'm not so up to date, I know mills found it better to not sort and buck at the logging site and developed processes to do all of that at the mill and make money doing it. I also see the entire rest of the world using a different process. Something's up. I could see the pulp mills still wanting tree length but if I am a sawmill....I could definitely see a path to $ by getting my loggers to go to CTL.
A good chainsaw and a 2 foot stick does good too. Most saw mills around here want it in 12/14/16 foot sticks anyway. I'm cutting a lot almost just like the pics 12 inch's At 16 foot. 25 trees per load saw logs. I'm getting a load of saw logs and a load of pulpwood a day.
No tree length anything in my neck of the woods in NW NC. 8-16 foot in 2 ft increments with trim is only option. I cut for grade amyways when i can but i know must bigger loggers here are pretty much using a bucksaw and slashing everything 16 ft
Studwood and logs is CTL here, but pulp is treelength. We used to have a 4' softwood pulp market up until the 90's. You could haul a pickup load of 4 foot pulp to some mills if you wanted to. You would need to be close by of course to be viable. ;D