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Plantation Pine

Started by DarrellC, June 07, 2013, 10:00:16 PM

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DarrellC

I recently purchased 43 acres or land in Northern NY.  There is a 5 acre 60 year old red pine plantation that has never been thinned on the property.  The rest of the land is a mixture of soft maple, white ash, poplar, white birch, white pine, white spruce, and a few hemlock. 

I cleared 3/4 acre of the red pine where I am going to build a house. What would be the best method to achieve a more natural forest look?  I don't want to clear it all at once but I would be willing to do it in sections if clear cuts are the only option.

Here is a pic from where I cleared looking into the plantation.



 

thecfarm

Are you looking to leave a tree about every 10 feet or so?  I keep a spot across the garage all cleaned up. This is a mixture of trees,but really nothing smaller than 6 inches gorws in there. I go in with the  small tractor and trailer each year,have not done it yet, and pick up any good size branches. Than I go in with a push lawn mower and mow it once a year. It takes some time to get "the look" but it does look good.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ianab

QuoteI would be willing to do it in sections if clear cuts are the only option

I think that's your best option.

If you try and thin trees like that to a more natural spacing the remaining trees will probably blow down in the next storm. But harvesting small (1/2 acre?) clearings gives you a nice sheltered glades to establish new trees, and the remaining pines still have that mutual support and should stay standing until it's their turn to come down.

You should be planning to take them all out over time, but by the time you get to the last of them your first plantings will be looking like a forest again, so you never have to live with that big clear cut wasteland thing.

If the trees had been thinned out earlier they wouldn't be as spindly as they are now and taking out selected trees to open the canopy would be more practical. But like it is now, it's really a clear cut and start again scenario.

But you could do it on stages.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

DarrellC

So if I take 4 acres and divide it into 8, 1/2 acre areas,  how long should I wait between plantings?

Should I stick with replanting with softwoods, or a mix of hard and soft? 

mesquite buckeye

Mighty high stump cuts.

If you want them to get bigger without blowing down, you can take them out little by little over several years. The remaining trees would still not be totally exposed, and would fill in and adjust.

There is almost always more than one way to get things done. Good luck.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

DarrellC

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on June 08, 2013, 12:13:36 AM
Mighty high stump cuts.

Excavator wanted me to cut them high so he could pull them.

mesquite buckeye

Our dozer guys say the same thing. They can also tip them first before you cut them, but then the logs get all dirty and hard on chains.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ianab

I'd just be starting at a convenient place and harvest them as you have time / need wood. Although the trees are pretty skinny the logs look nice and straight. Small knots, not much stress etc. Should be useful wood. If it took 8 years to get through them all, no big deal. Replant as you go with a mix of local species. You can look at your other woods and see what species are doing best in your soil / climate. Chances are you will get some natural regeneration in the cleared spots, but you can adjust the mix to get the species you want.

Once you are away from the building site you can cut the stumps at ground level, leave them to rot, and just plant around them.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Clark

I don't think you have to clear-cut it, even in small patches.  That is the easier way of doing it but you could thin it, very slowly and probably have only a few trees come down on their own.

But first, what way is the picture-taker facing in the above photo?  If that is looking into prevailing winds you will most certainly have problems with some of those trees coming down.  Interior trees in a plantation don't take well to having the full force of the wind against them.  They tend to protest by falling over and in the case of red pine, bending down and never recovering.

If you choose to thin it, you'd be wise to leave more of the edge trees.  They are used to the wind and will protect those interior trees.  The first thinning I would do is to gain "operability" within the stand.  Make skid trails as wide as you need them.  Leave the stand alone for 3 years then go in and take the smallest trees, maybe take 1 out of every 4 that remain. Often you won't have a smallest tree to choose from, in that case just space them out. Wait another 3 years and this time take out 1/3 of the trees. Something along those lines should work and keep you safe.

It's a lot more work but down the road you have a stand of nice looking pine and not a bunch of young stuff that you'll never see attain any size.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ianab

I'm just looking at how tall and spindly the trees have become. Now you might be able to thin them and have a lot of them survive, but from my observations I don't think the chances are very good at this late stage. They also tend to act like dominoes in the wind. Once one goes, the whole stand can go.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

BaldBob

Even without the wind throw issue, the likelihood of Red Pine that has less than 25% crown (like these) responding much to a thinning is very poor.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Clark

Several things to note:

1. I never said you wouldn't lose all your pine by trying to thin them.  Simply that you probably could save most of them and still have a stand of pine. This is an area that is rather unexplored; as this thread shows, most people recommend cutting everything.

2. I never said they would respond to thinning.  The previous owner missed the first thinning 35 years ago, the pine are never going to respond well after the first thinning was missed. Let us look at the poster's initial query:

Quote from: DarrellC on June 07, 2013, 10:00:16 PM
What would be the best method to achieve a more natural forest look?  I don't want to clear it all at once but I would be willing to do it in sections if clear cuts are the only option.

That is what brought about my response.  Clearly he's not looking to have a vigorous stand of pine, more than likely he wants the aesthetics of tree-sized trees and not planted, 12" tall seedings.  Those are tall and spindly and definitely not natural looking.  Granted, a mature plantation is only slightly less unnatural looking. However, trying to keep some of the existing pine on the site would clearly meet the landowner's goals better than cutting them all. We just have to give them ample warning about what we are suggesting.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

mesquite buckeye

I'm wondering if they won't respond at all to thinning, or just slowly. Black cherry acts like that. The literature basicly says thinning doesn't work, or maybe it might work if you thin more heavily. My own experience is it takes five or more years for cherry trees to visibly respond to ordinary thinning, but that in fact they do. Seems like they spend a lot of energy growing roots first before they do much in the way of visible crown expansion.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

DarrellC

Thanks for the ideas guys.

I think I will try some clearing and replanting starting at the back of the plantation.  I will try to save the trees that are around the building site, at least until the new trees have gotten larger.

I have a clearing at the edge of a large white pine stand, where there are hundreds of seedlings growing from 1-4 ft high.  How well would transplanting the seedlings to the clearings in the red pine work?  I have also seen quite a few white spruce seedlings around.

Mooseherder

I tried transplanting some Red Pine from our stand in Maine to another area on the same lot but was unsuccessful.  I wasn't there to take care of them after the transplant either so that may have been the issue.  You may have better luck.

Darrell, are your trees falling exactly where you want them to drop?

Ianab

Some trees transplant better than others, and climate and season make a big difference.

Usually best to move them in early spring, just before they leaf out. The tree, not having leaves, is less likely to dry out from the loss of some of it's root system, the weather is the best for growth to let if recover, and plenty of moisture in the soil. The less disturbance and drying out of the roots, the better the chances. Softwoods still have their needles, but they are more dormant, and the season and good growing conditions help them survive too.

Although our local species are different, maple and cherry seedlings seem to move pretty easily. Other species, probably need to research or experiment. At least you can do this without spending money, just an afternoon with a spade.

When you are replanting make sure you plan for the next lot of pines to come down. Hate to flatten all your seedlings with the next area to be harvested. Leave the space you need to get them down.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

thecfarm

Where I cut trees,plenty come back. I have no need to dig up trees and transplant them. I have places that I would not want to walk through.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

DarrellC

Quote from: Mooseherder on June 09, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Darrell, are your trees falling exactly where you want them to drop?

Yeah a lot of them needed a wedge to go the way we wanted them.

Quote from: thecfarm on June 09, 2013, 09:58:20 PM
Where I cut trees,plenty come back. I have no need to dig up trees and transplant them. I have places that I would not want to walk through.

That's a good idea I can just see what starts growing.  I may also create a food plot for deer.

Gary_C

The MN DNR does not recommend leaving mature red pine close to a new planting. Has something to do with carryover of bugs and diseases.

I would be inclined to try some light thinning too. And leave the stand thicker on the side of the prevailing winds. The worst thing that could happen is they go down in a storm but that is always a risk with any mature stand of red pine. And you could get lucky and save a nice stand of red pine. Worst case is mother nature could make the decision for you and then you would have to clear cut it.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

WDH

You don't have much to lose by doing a series of light thinnings.  Worse case is that you have to cut them if they don't hold up.  You could use the same small patch approach and take advantage of the larger mature trees to create the landscape that you want versus planting little seedlings. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

banksiana

Remove 1/4 of the basal area every 5 to 10 years until you achieve the spacing you desire.  Thin the stand from below, meaning take out junk.  Double tops, deformed trees, smaller diameter trees etc.  Remove the slash from the area as soon as you cut it.  Don't create wind tunnels.  Avoid barking the leave trees with machinery.  Purchase good home owners insurance.

Mooseherder

Quote from: DarrellC on June 09, 2013, 10:55:16 PM
Quote from: Mooseherder on June 09, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Darrell, are your trees falling exactly where you want them to drop?

Yeah a lot of them needed a wedge to go the way we wanted them.

[/quote]

The reason I was asking I didn't see any notches for your directional falling.
It would be safer.  Do a search on falling techniques.  You'll be glad you did. :)

DarrellC

Quote from: Mooseherder on June 10, 2013, 12:56:03 PM
Quote from: DarrellC on June 09, 2013, 10:55:16 PM
Quote from: Mooseherder on June 09, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Darrell, are your trees falling exactly where you want them to drop?

Yeah a lot of them needed a wedge to go the way we wanted them.


The reason I was asking I didn't see any notches for your directional falling.
It would be safer.  Do a search on falling techniques.  You'll be glad you did. :)

I was definitely using a notch.  Most of them were cut with a with the notch on the log not on the stump.

DarrellC

Just got back from the lot a little while ago.  Trees are planted 6 feet apart with 1156 trees per acre.  Smallest tree is 7" , largest tree 13", and average 9".

From what I have read thinning is usually done by removing rows.  Since I will be thinning by hand would it be best to keep all rows and remove select trees from each row?

I figure it can't hurt to gradually thin this stand.  Burn the junk in the OWB and take a few small saw logs for the mill.

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