Help with pine flooring

[Avalancher]

I hope someone has some ideas, I am running out of em...
We are renovating our new home in TN in anticipation of moving this spring from AL. I have been milling pine down here in AL in the hopes of using it as flooring for the new kitchen. For some odd reasons the renovation is going a lot smoother and faster than I planned, now its getting time to finish up with the last stage of putting the floor down. I checked my moisture on the pine, it is still at 15-20% in most of my stacks. A carpenter I was talking to this weekend suggested putting it down anyway, and glueing it down with construction adhesive as well as the wooden pegs that I planned to use. His logic is if its glued down tight it cant shrink any and cause me any gaps. Does this sound right? I have been spending long hours there, and hate to ruin the whole house's appearance by a messed up floor. I have never used any semi-dry wood, have always tried to get it at least a 5-8% before using. Anyone have any ideas?

[HORSELOGGER]

Glue will only make the removal job that much harder if you do indeed try to install flooring at that moisture level :( Tim cook had an interesting flooring article in the last cooks sawmill news letter , you might contact him here under user name Timbo. If you have , as you stated spent many long hours on the renovation, you wouldnt want to risk a big headache by putting in a high mc floor. Take a couple of weeks at least and put the lumber in the room it is intended for and let the heating system get the floor acclimated and drop some moisture. Best would be to pay a kiln operator to finish it off for you. That would be the fastest way.

[Norm]

Neither glue or nails will keep it from shrinking on you. If you put it down early you're going to have problems. Stack it in the house it's going into on stickers with the heat on to at least the 60's and run some box fans through the stacks, you'll be amazed at how fast the moisture comes down. Pine should really have the pitch set in it from a kiln to be done properly.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Since you are in AL I will assume you have SYP.  It needs to be heated up to no less then 160 degrees and I would not put it down till I had atleast 8% mc.  You glue it down and it will bust something as it is going to move.
  Like Norm said I would get it dried in a kiln and then stack it on stickers in the house for a few weeks till it got "comfortable" in there before putting it down.  My guess is it will settle at about 10% mc in the house but there is alot of movement between 10 and 15% and make sure you leave a good 3/4 inch at the walls.
ARKANSAWYER

[Tobacco Plug]

Everyone has given you some good advice.  I would also add that narrower boards will produce less total movement.  If you were planning on using some wide (8" and wider) flooring, you should make very certain that you have it as dry as you can get it, and even then expect some gaps at the joints during winter.  If you haven't dressed the lumber, you might want to shiplap it as that allows for more shrinkage.  It is not as strong as tongue and groove, though.

[mur]

Hello:
I don't know what type of pine you are using, but any wood at 15-20% is going to shrink as it drops down to around 9-10% - average house MC in my area.  I had a phone call about a month ago from a fellow who had put down 2500 square feet of Douglas Fir flooring at 12-15%.  It was not my wood - he heard I knew a bit about wood and wanted help with his problem.  It had shrunk and shriveled and was a total mess.  "What can I do? he asked.  I told him he could rip it up or cover it over.  I've run the story past as few wood buddies and they all shake their head and agree.  The fellow who sold the flooring is no longer in the wood business.  I have about another 6 stories of his customers asking for help from shrinking boards.  I won't let wood out of my shop over 8%.  And 6% is the target.  

[KiwiCharlie]

I would wait for dryer timber too - when I was a youngster, and my father built our last family house, he too had pine flooring which wasnt totally dry.  I remember him using those big old floor cramps which attach to the joists and cramp the boards up prior to nailing.  He cramped them up so tight he reckoned they were bowing!!    When it dried, there were huge gaps left between them.  It proved a major problem.
Cheers
Charlie.

[etat]

Most of the floor in my house is 6 inch tongue and groove pine. When I got it home I stacked it up and strapped it up good so the top boards wouldn't bow.  I let it sit a good while with a fan blowin on it before I put it down.  Very very few cracks between the boards.  Wait a while, you'll be glad you did.

[Avalancher]

Thanks for all the good advise, it went against my better judgement to use the wood, but I dont know everything(in fact I dont know much more than how to tie my shoes some mornnings :D)
The carpenter I talked to seemed like a reasonable chap and I hate to doubt his word but it seemed to me that wet wood will shrink, no matter what you might want otherwise. As my grandfather always said "its in the nature of things"
I hate for the whole reconstruction process to come to a streeching halt, but I hate to have something mess it all up and have to be redone.
One question, can you dry pine to fast? I know my maple and oak take a while in my solar kiln, and I pay careful attention to the percentages of mc drop each day, but I read somewhere that pine is much more forgiving. Anyone know anything about it?

[Norm]

I've never dried pine before but from what I've read it's real hard to dry it too fast especially when you get under 30%.

[mur]

Hi Avalancher:
Pine is an easy dry.  If the wood is 15-20% as you said, it wouldn't take long.  Hit it with some heat and air and let it vent.  Won't take long.  I was thinking of your situation today while s2s'ing some birch and I thought: find yourself a wood shrinkage calculator (there's one at the "other" wood site, woodweb.  Punch in your numbers and species and see what your shrinkage would have been.  Might shock you!!  I haven't checked the "Toolbox" here - they might have a shrinkage calculator too.  Take care.
Mur

[Don P]

A good shrinkage calculator is here;
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

They also have an EMC calculator here;
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/emc.htm

[Don_Lewis]

Do you plan to sand it? If so, it needs to have the pitch set. Even if you don't plan to sand it, you will probably have pitch oozing out over the years if you don't set it.

[Avalancher]

Yep, I plan on sanding it after planing it. I am going to run it in my kiln to set the pitch. what I was debating about it the pine is up in TN at the house, my kiln is down here in Mobile Alabama. We are moving, and the kiln is low on the priority list to move cauze of the size.
From what I understand, if you use shellac as a sealer, you wont have any problems with pitch coming through the finish. Saw that somewhere else on the boards, I think DanG mentioned it.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Shellac was used a long time ago, to keep knots from bleeding through. Take a LOT of Shellac to coat the whole floor, speshullie if it don't work. : ;D ;D

[Swing_blade_Andy]

Hi Guys

I recommend you use TUNG OIL on that floor.

Its natural and the Chinese have been using it with success for watewrproof sealing timber (so have I ) for 2000 years (me not quite that long , although I did have a birthday recently)

It will dry hard, seal the floor and you can repair any damage that might occour over the years without stripping the whole floor - you just sand and reoil the mark.

Its important though you must SATURATE the floor and keep it wet for 20-30 minutes. After that buff it to you hearts content and it will not give you cancer like the lacquers and varnishes but a lusterous silky finish.



Andrew

[Avalancher]

Use the tung oil instead of Shellac? Will it seal in any pitch from coming through?

[etat]

Pure tung oil is expensive.  Lots of finishes advertised as tung oil finishes are actually a mixture of thiner and varnish or polyurathane.  Lots of em don't even contain tung oil.

On a new pine floor it takes multiple coats over multiple days and the fumes are terrible.  There's a schedule to go by to do right and you have to mix it with thinner changing the ammount of thinner a bit for each successive coat.  It takes a long time to dry and harden.  Mixing it 1/3 tung oil, 1/3 thinner, and 1/3 varnish on the last coat will make a slightly more durable and hard finish.  

That said I put 6 to 8 coats of pure tung oil on my floors according to the directions I had.  I did this over a period of several weeks.  I did like the way it soaks 'into' the wood and the way it looked when I finally got it finished.

As I said though it's a LOT more work than a varnish or polyurathane finish.   Would I do it again.

Yes.

Will it seal the pitch?  I have no idea, sorry.

[Swing_blade_Andy]

The floor in the pic I posted above was sealed with ONE coat of Tung oil mix. As I mentioned before, I SATURATED the timber and kept it wet for more than 30 minutes so that I was sure that timber cannot absorb any more oil. Then I wet sanded the floor to obtain the smooth lustre and remove the sticky residue. After that its use a high-speed polisher and buff buff buff... The faster speed polisher the better as the idea is to create heat to aid polymerisation as well as a smooth finish.

It is pointless therefore to add another coat of oil after that because as I said before the timber is saturated, so any more oil will only sit on the surface and become a sticky mess. The oil should polymerise IN the timber to create the hard waterproof skin. Once it is touch dry – about the time it takes to buff. Then you can walk on it (with sox), but it is imperative that you do allow any moisture anywhere near for about 48 hours even though you can walk on it. After that you can use as normal installing furniture and the like. I am reliably told that the polymerisation is complete in approximately 72 hours. To answer you specific question, yes it will disallow any seepage of pitch or moisture for that matter once polymerisation is complete as it is an impervious skin which can be wet mopped, swept, vacuumed as you desire. It is also used for the timber deck and hull of boats for that reason.

As noted by another poster, many manufactures offer products containing Tung oil, however I do not recommend using it in conjunction with synthetic solvent, varnish or any other coating, nor to thin it or combine with another coating – it is counter productive. Tung Oil is a natural product and works best when used in conjunction with other naturally products. The mix I use employs 3 other oils for use as accelerators and transporters. It works particularly well and costs about €1 per sq meter to apply. Following is an extract from an article I published recently on the use of Tung oil and why not to consider synthetic accelerators:

A recurring debate throughout the western world has centered on the use of petrochemical-based lacquers as a floor surface, particularly in domestic buildings. Of greatest concern are lacquers and varnishes, which use highly volatile solvents. Articles published by the US Environmental Protection Agency, US National Toxicology Program and other similar organisations have labeled these products as 'known carcinogens'. This includes the chemicals stabilisers in solvents for lacquers and varnishes such as 1-4 dioxane, also trichloroethylene and xylenes, benzene and toluene. The result has been the banning of different forms of lacquers for use in the EU, a movement led by Germany; unfortunately Ireland is slow to catch-up.

These toxins are known to attack the central nervous system, the respiratory system, and the heart, liver, kidneys, blood and skin (Source: Pacific Toxicology Laboratories 2003). The effects are most dangerous for the applicator but also for anyone else who inhales the fumes or intakes these substances through physical contact. In some cases the worker does not suffer the greatest effects; it is the unborn child of the lacquer worker following the onset of neuroblastoma – a quick growing cancer affecting the nerve tissues of infants. This malignant cancer stems from sperm damaged by chemical exposure, which then affects the fetus and developing child.

You can see some of more pics of projects at this gallery (most of which are mine... some are not)

http://andrew7640.fotopic.net/c406640.html

Andrew

[Avalancher]

Hmm,. sounds interesting. A quick search on Yahoo turned up a few resources for Tung Oil, but wow, is that spendy. Looks like I would have to crack open the piggy bank to buy enough of this stuff. $50.00 a gallon, and I guess I would need 6 gallons of the stuff. :-[

[FeltzE]

I put down some T&G Oak in one of the bedrooms here, the MC was about 11% boards were previously KD below 10%

Need I say, yes there are a few gaps now, not too bad but it is a little disappointing to go through the touble of installaton and finishing only to have a 1/8 inch gap open in the middle of the floor... not every where but a couple spots.

Boards were 4inch T&G random oak.

Eric

[kilndry]

The point about sanding and pitchbleed is an important one; the pitch will run when the sander hits the wood (from the heat of the friction) if it has not been set properly. It has nothing to do with the pitch running after the floor is sealed.

Our home had 1x8" T+G white pine flooring installed when it was new, and sure enough after the first winter there were large gaps between just about all the boards. There is also some significant cupping. It's a little better in the summer, but it was obvious that it was not properly dried to begin with. Gives the floor some "character" I suppose, but a little disappointing.

Two years ago we replaced half of it. Found a few boards that had the mill's name stamped on them. As a kiln salesman, I remind this mill every now and then about my floor just for fun.

The bottom line: make sure it is dried properly, or it will bug you forever.