Selling Random Width Boards

[jmcq]

Just had a quick question regarding selling random width hardwood.
I was recently asked to mill random width #1 and better hardwood, and I am not sure what the industry standards are on this.
-How is board footage calculated?
I have only ever sold lumber in whole dimensions so this is new to me.
Any help, explanations or examples would be appreciated.

Thanks
J

[Dan_Shade]

what types of volumes are you planning to sell?

lumber is typically sold by the board foot, and rated by grade.

if you are selling small quantity, I would sell your inventory by the board to avoid challenges to grade and quantity. 

[jmcq]

The buyer is looking for full transport loads.

[Dan_Shade]

ok, you're past my level of experience, and into the "pro" level.

i'm sure some of the professional sawyers can weigh in.  are you familiar with your local market values?

[True North]

When I did some grade sawing for a local mill, the grader worked with me for a couple of days and I learned a ton. If that is possible, I would ask. He also gave me some standard literature for hardwood grades, but also explained that as the markets got tighter, buyers got a bit more selective. Also, the dimensions that they used for select and better were different for oak vs. maple. So I guess before I put the blade in a log, I would ask them specifically what they consider to be #1 and better.

[Okrafarmer]

Sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with  :P the NHLA hardwood grading rules.

[Ianab]

-How is board footage calculated?

Basically a board foot is a piece of wood 12" x 12" x 1".
So if you have a board that's 12" x 1" x 10ft, that is 10 bd/ft.
A board that's 6" x 1" x 10ft = 5 bd /ft.

There are a few other little things to do with thickness and tolerances, but that's the basic idea.

As for the grading, that's a whole other subject, and there is a whole book written on it, you can take courses in it, get certified etc. It just sets standards for the quality of boards. Number and size of knots, wane, checks etc. It just sets some sort of "Standard" so that when your client orders a load of boards off you, sight unseen, they are going to be up to a certain standard. If they aren't, then you might not get paid  >:(

Like Okra says, you need to, at the very least, get a copy of the NHLA grading rules, and then you check that the boards you are sending out match the required grade.

Ian

[DouginUtah]

I'll complicate the question...

How precise do you get when measuring?

Say a board is 9 3/4" wide and 10'-8" long. How many board feet?

[beenthere]

I'd say eight board feet, if 4/4 using a hardwood lumber scale rule,

[Bibbyman]

Disclaimer,  I'm not a certified hardwood grader.

You'll need some guidance.  Actual, hands on experience with someone who knows how to grade and measure grade lumber.  The rule books are available.  Maybe on-line somewhere.

But having said that,  the rules are rules but there are always things to ask before both parties are happy.  For example.  "How thick?".   4/4 hardwood was intended to be 1-1/4" thick with a tolerance.  Many mills would push to the low end of the tolerance in an effort to get as much board feet as possible. With careful milling on a well-tuned band mill,  1-1/8" is normally quite acceptable.   We did saw for one company that insisted on a full 1-1/4" thick.   Everywhere else has been happy with 1-1/8".   The company we've marketed to in the past 5 years states a target thickness of 1-1/8" on ever P.O.

Minimum and maximum width and length can be specified.  For example,  one place wanted only 6" and wider and 8' and longer.  While the NHLA rules allow narrower and shorter.  Our current customer does not want lumber over 14' long.

If they say they want only #1 (1c?) or better,  do they want the lumber graded by a certified NHLA grader?  Some places do require that the lumber be graded by a certified grader.  Where we market, they grade the lumber. 

You say they want transport loads.  They will want it bundled and banded in certain ways.   For example,  our current customer would allow bundles to contain both red and white oak mixed.  Then they went to some newer computer driven grading and measuring system and then they required each bundle to have only red or white oak.  They also require that the boards in the bundles be of a similar length.  For example – 8' and 9' boards in one bundle,  10'-11' in another.   They will want one end "justified".   The other end won't be unless you are controlling the length of your logs or trimming to length after stacked.  Some places may specify the banding material – metal or poly.  I don't think many places care anymore but I bet all will want the bundles banded.  We use two band of poly.  We see a lot come in with just one band of steel or poly. 

For board width,  it's my understanding that they round up and round down to nearest inch.  Thus the 9-3/4" board would have the calculated width of 10".   With boards falling on the 1/2" rounded up and down alternately.

Boards are expected to have trim added to the length.  4" is what we try for.  Lengths are rounded down to nearest foot.  So a board 10'-8" would be a 10' board for calculating board feet.

Different species of hardwood have some quirks in the grading and size rules.  Too complicated to go into what they are.  If you're sawing one species,  just start with those rules.  Just be aware that if you switch to sawing another species, there are some rule changes.

If at all handy,  go to the customer and asked to look at the lumber they are receiving and be shown what is good, what is acceptable and what is not.  Or possibly the customer (or buyer – in the case of a big outfit) can come pay you a visit.  We've had our buyer stop by and spend some time with us and it was of great benefit to us both,  I think.

NHLA offers short 3-day classes in hardwood grading intended for sawyers and others that are producing hardwood lumber.  You may see if there is a class available in your area.  Mary attended one years ago on hardwood lumber and hardwood log grading.



 

Here is a truck load of oak heading to market.

[jmcq]

Thanks All,
Bibbyman, When you are stacking your material do you put all the different widths in the bundles together or is there some sorting?

Thanks
J

[ladylake]

 I stack my lumber in 42" wide rows or close which is 28 bf per row for 8' long lumber.   Steve

[Ohio_Bill]

I have sold random width hardwood to a buyer, but they took all the way down to 3 com. So I just cut for grade and sent mostly everything .With the #1 stipulation I would want to know what happens to the lumber that you grade wrong?  Does it get culled or do they drop the grade and pay you for it?  I would think you would need to have a lot of dialog with the buyer or you both may be disappointed.

[Bibbyman]

Thanks All,
Bibbyman, When you are stacking your material do you put all the different widths in the bundles together or is there some sorting?

Thanks
J

We stack, and I think everyone else stacks random width in the same bundle. 

Mary is fanatical about making the bundles with the layers tight.   She will sort and find the right width board to finish out a layer so it comes out even with no gaps.   That's not necessary.  Everyone else has some rack that they stack in and will fill up a layer so that the right and left faces of the bundle come out smooth.  Most always there are small gaps between some boards.



 

Here are the sawhorses Mary designed and built years ago to stack lumber.  They have a back board to make the one edge smooth.

There is a drawing and plan somewhere showing how these sawhorses are constructed.



  


We were making our bundles 42" wide when hauling on the 3500 Dodge with 7' wide bed.  But now that we have a bigger truck with 8' wide bed we've went to making bundles 46" wide. I'd think 48" wide would work ok on tractor trailers.

[Chuck White]

I'll complicate the question...
How precise do you get when measuring?
Say a board is 9 3/4" wide and 10'-8" long. How many board feet?

Not sure, but I think this is correct, assuming that the board is 1" thick.

9¾"x10.66' / 12 = 8.66

9.75" x 10.66' divided by 12 = 8.66 board ft.

[DouginUtah]

For board width,  it's my understanding that they round up and round down to nearest inch.  Thus the 9-3/4" board would have the calculated width of 10".   With boards falling on the 1/2" rounded up and down alternately.

Boards are expected to have trim added to the length.  4" is what we try for.  Lengths are rounded down to nearest foot.  So a board 10'-8" would be a 10' board for calculating board feet.

Bibby explained the point I was attempting to make. The board would be measured as 10" x 120" / 144 = 8.33 bf. Now, would that 8.33 be be reduced to 8 bf or would the fraction be maintained in the tally?

[red oaks lumber]

approach this deal very carfully, with current market conditions, i dont want to see you get had.
what is your plan for all wood not making that grade?

[beenthere]

Boards are usually scaled with a graders stick for footage.

Any 10' board (as mentioned dropped back to nearest foot) that is in actual width range of about 9" up to about 10 1/4" falls in the 8 bd ft range. Then the boards that fall on the break (say between 8 bd ft and 9 bd ft) are alternately thrown up or down on the tally per my understanding of how it used to be.

Inspectorwoody and others measuring lumber with a stick can chime in for the way they do it now.
Lumber when graded is tallied using a stick, not a measuring tape.  Bibby's method of stack width/length and counting courses is usually pretty close estimate.

[Bibbyman]

Yes,  I think it'd be difficult for a small producer to make money on just #1 and better.  We would starve on the percentage we get #1 and better. Our logs are not that good.  They only yield a few percent #1 and better – the majority being falling in the #2 range.  That would mean we'd have to find other markets for 90+% of the log.  But our logs are basically pallet and blocking grade.  Or, as we call them, "saw logs".   We live because we make ties and beams out of 50% of the log volume and flooring lumber off the outsides. 

To make it work, you'd have to have the best grade logs at a very low price.  And then you'd have to have a market for what falls below #1.  Could be blocking, ties, resaw cants, pallet lumber or whatever.  Ron could probably give a better breakdown but I'd suspect even good logs would produce about 50% #1 and better.

Doing the math.  We had a customer bring in a true northern red 16' long and 18" on the little end.  It was an old forest grown tree with tight growth rings and good color.  There were no defects on the log other than a little sweep.  Our logger happened to arrive with a load of logs.  I asked him how much logs like the one mention would bring.  He said if he could sale it to a buyer in Wisconsin, he could probably get $1.00/bf. But it would have to be perfect in every way.   Else the mills in the area would pay a top of .75/bf. 

We sawed this log into fencing lumber for the customer.  (It was his log, remember.)  Although there was a good bit of FAS, F1f and #1, there was still quite a bit that was below #1 and some cull in the heart.   

The top paid at our market for red oak is under .80/bf delivered.  The price falls from there.  So...  If we paid .75/bf, sawed the log and hauled it to market,  we'd be in the hole.

Now, if you were a big mill that produced mega-board feet in a day and could pull of #1 and better as you sawed and accumulate a truck load ever couple of days,  and get a higher price for it for being #1 and better, you may come out ahead. 

[Overlength]

You should order the NHLA rule book, and a couple of tally sticks from their web site. The buyer may be asking for 1C &btr, knowing you are new, and expecting he will get 2C with it. Normally they might expect 15% 2C, the balance half FAS, half 1C. Its hard to make money on the 2C, so they really don't want it, but know they have to take some to get the best pricing on the rest of it. If you sell all 1C&Btr, or all FAS, you should get a premium. 

[Overlength]

I might add if you have several 1000 bf to grade, would be best to hire a freelance grader in your area to grade it for you at first. He would be on your side,and show you a few things. Would pay for himself easy. And you know exactly what you have before you send it out. You could ask around for one, or the NHLA would know one.

[Larry]

 

 

The business end of my stick.  The numbers 12, 10, 14, 16 in the top row are the lumber length.  The rest of the numbers are board footage.  For example take a 16' long board 6" wide as represented by the yellow tape.  In the column immediately left you see 8 which is the board footage.  If the board is only 8' long you still use the 16' column but divide by two.  On the reverse side it's the same only for odd length lumber.  Sorry can't remember the official rule of rounding but I think bt had the correct answer.

The steel part has go, no-go steps for lumber thickness.  The sharp side of the steel thingy is used to scrap the board to check for stain.

There are other sticks slightly different but with the same result.

The math a grader uses is like this.  For a 4/4 10' long board 6" wide.  10 X 6 = 60/12 = 5 board foot.

Maybe Inspector Woody will come round and tell me if I got it all right.  I'm not even close to a grader but I can grade after a fashion, given nuff time.

And never play a number game with a grader...they can figure board footage in there head faster than somebody with a calculator.

[jmcq]

Thanks guys,
All the responses have been most helpful.
Thanks to all on the words of caution.

J

[ElectricAl]

Boy I'd be real cautious trying to market 1c and Better as a new sawyer.
Bibby's right about loosing your shorts on the deal.

Suggest to the buyer that you'd Custom Saw for them.
They can provide the logs or pay the logger to deliver the logs.

Custom Sawing limits the risk for you.
The biggest risk is not getting paid for sawing.
That's a whole lot better then not getting paid for the lumber you just sawed.

As suggested before you need to learn the basics about NHLA Rules to saw for "Grade" .
Get the books and study them. Then enroll in a 3 day short coarse to sharpen your skills.

In 1995 a special advanced 5 day class was held only 250 miles form us. I attended that after understanding the book and being tutored by a former Inspector turned Broker. 


Keep us posted on your progress. 

[inspectorwoody]

Everyone has made some really great points that need to be taken into consideration.

Board footage with a scale stick....

I will go up on one, down on the next.

Close 6' SM, I'll call it 6 once and 5 on the next. It helps when your grading/tallying bought lumber. Being fair to both parties.

Larry has a fancy stick.  :D

I don't have those steps on mine.