Chain or cargo web straps for pulling with a come-along ?

[chainsaw_louie]

Hi,

I  need some gear to pull down some hanger trees as well as moving logs that are hung up and have
been assembling the necessary tools...or so I think.

My tools kit consists of a 2ton come-along, a roll of 4" cargo web strap  and some hooks for
1/4" chain. 

I went to home depot today and they want $2.41/foot of 1/4 chain and the specs on the
box of chain said 1280lbs.  Well the 4" web straps talk about much more than that, like 10,000-20,000lbs.
So, should I even mess with chain? The web straps seem cheaper and stronger.  For non-machinery pulling
is it reasonable to use those cargo straps instead of chain? 

Chain does have the advantage of having adjustable length with a grab hook, I wonder if cargo straps have such a
thing.

Also is it possible to splice  those cargo straps ?

Thanks.

Tim

[DanG]

The first thing that comes to mind is that you need to find a different place to shop.  $2.41/ft for quarter inch chain is a gosh-awful ripoff.  I can get 20' sections of half-inch trucker chain for $30, with hooks on both ends.  The problem with chain, for your purpose is that it is heavy, and getting it up into a hung up tree is a trick.  For that purpose, I use ¼" cable or wire rope.  I get it in bulk for a quarter a foot, and it can stand up to anything that come-along can dish out and a whole lot more.

[Gary_C]

Make sure you are looking at the WLL or working load limit for both types when you decide. I think the number you quoted for the strap are breaking strength and not WLL.

[routestep]

I agree with DanG and get a chain, or two.

[jander3]

I recently purchased a couple of rope pullers from McMasters Carr. My pullers have about 50 feet of rope.  I like them better for many jobs than the standard come-along. The downside SWL = 1000#.

[isawlogs]

  A two ton come along aint a whole lot to be playing with hung up trees ....  :-\    The straps , you could make your own chockers with eyes on the end thet could be used to ancre to a tree and not cause damage .

[DanG]

What Isawlogs said!  A hung-up tree can be a challenge even if you're experienced and well equipped.  Don't be afraid to holler for help if you need it.

[Tom]

The best reason I can think of to use chain is that it doesn't stretch.  When you pull on one end, the other end moves a like amount.   That gives you a lot of positive control that nylon or woven fabric doesn't give. 

Snatching is popular in pulling vehicles out of ditches because it allows momentum to stretch the fabric and provide more pulling power than the pulling vehicle is capable on its own.

The problem is that the load is then attached to a slingshot with the pulling device being the target.  It wouldl be quite disconcerting to have a limb or tree trunk flying your way at the speed of a pitched baseball and no time to run.

[tcsmpsi]

I understand looking to be frugal.  However, when it comes to moving problem trees and/or logs, that, in my opinion, is not an area to put cost before effectiveness and safety.

It may seem to cost a bit, but I use good, 3/4" double braid polyester rope for moving trees.  I use what I sell at the shop, but Bailey's, right over there in the sponsor section, has a good supply of tree-working equipment. 

[Don_Papenburg]

Tom , I beg to differ with you on that statment .  I have a chain that stretched enough that it can now be pushed  ;D

[isawlogs]

 Must of got mine from the same roll . got its twin here  :

[WH_Conley]

Yeah, I got a 16 footer that used to be a 12 footer. Gotta watch that bubblegum chain.

[rebocardo]

> My tools kit consists of a 2ton come-alon

Totally inadequate for pulling snagged trees (imho) unless you spent $150 for a real one. I guaranteed if it cost under $70 it will be just about worthless pulling a tree down and you stand a good chance of bending the body or getting it so bound up you can't release it. Been there, done that.

> a roll of 4" cargo web strap  and

Not the ideal thing to use with a come-a-long, especially since yours probably only has 12 feet of cable, because of stretch. Might be okay for pulling with a vehicle.

>some hooks for 1/4" chain.

Min. size chain you should be using is 5/16 sch 70, I think sch 40 has a WWL of 1400?

imho, You have to have two different setups, one for pulling snags, the other for pulling logs.

For pulling snags, from the top of the tree, you really have to use a vehicle unless you want to invest in a bunch of pulleys. The ideal thing for this is 1/4" winch cable. For pulling a snag from the bottom, the ideal thing is 3/8 chain or bigger.

For skidding logs with a vehicle, then the 4" strap is fine. Have a pro stitch the loops and whatever you do, do not use a shackle on the log end. Myself, I would probably have someone stitch the loops AND sandwich the dead/live ends with 1/4" bolts and washers down the middle or better yet rivets and washers.

> those cargo straps instead of chain?

If you have cargo strap instead of 4" tow strap (or cargo sling) then do not use it. It is not designed or meant to be used in a shock load and I can tell you from personal experience it might be okay for skidding small stuff, but, in no way will it hold up to a winch load or shock. It will break. It is only meant for securing cargo.

I would not use rope for skidding logs, it does not hold up well to the shock or abrasion. I would not use it for pulling snags with a vehicle. I would use it with blocks to pull snags.

Even the 3/4" poly rope at Home Depot is vastly inferior to the 1/2" climbing rope I have for both shock load and WWL.  Plus the braids will become undone. Someone did me a "favor" by buying a roll of the 3/4" stuff for me and I returned it for credit and bought some arborist rope at my Stihl dealer instead.
   
imo, The only decent thing you can buy at Home Depot is the transport chain. You have to shop elsewhere for the cable and rope. I have been very happy with the 1/4" cable (not listed but you can buy it) and 12" loop ends on them from Bailey's.  I have them make me 1 foot loops on the cable. Reason for the 1 foot loops is when you are running a wire rope into a tree and pulling it into a choker position it is much easier with a big loop. Especially if you have made a repair or have a home made loop with 3 clamps.

1/4" cable can do double duty as a skid cable as long as you are very careful not to hit stumps and do not do it on a regular basis.

My $0.02 

[tcsmpsi]

The double braid polyester that I refer to is specifically designed for abraision and shock.  I have put it through enough over the years that I depend on it without reservation.  It was designed for working.  It certainly can't be found at any Home Depot or other type of box store.  The 1/2" arborist rope (depending on specific construction)  is ok for climbing and limb work.  I utilize several different come-alongs/winches, depending on the particular job, sometimes utilizing more than one on a particularly precarious tree/circumstance.

The 100' length (I use it most, but use other lengths, also) of "Dozer Rope" (name my manufacturer gives it) that I'm currently using has pulled 40-50 trees from differing precarious positions.  For skidding, I generally wrap the log with chain and attach rope to that.

Honestly, I've never used any of the wire rope, but it seems like it would probably do a good job.  I just like working with rope better.  Much more comfortable in my hands and more amenable to varying applications, knots, etc.

I've been around when chain, cable, nylon straps and rope have all broken under stress. 

I've studied the rope and equipment that Bailey's offers for particular tree-working applications, and what they offer is suitable and readily available to forum members.  I did invest in one of their heavy ratchet winches a few years ago.

[BAR]

"

The problem is that the load is then attached to a slingshot with the pulling device being the target.  It would be quite disconcerting to have a limb or tree trunk flying your way at the speed of a pitched baseball and no time to run.

"

Use chain!  If a strap or cable should break you are also the target and can get sliced right down the middle.  Chain links ( not those referenced above) can not push and the chain will simply collapse and fall dead.

bar

[mike_van]

Tim, my 2 cents - 1/4" chain is too light for even the smallest of trees. Especially the made in China stuff that the Depot or TSC is selling.  You can find good used chain at tag sales, flea markets, & auctions for a fraction of what it sold for. I have a few 5/16's, but mostly 3/8".   Last you a lifetime.

[rebocardo]

> can not push and the chain will simply collapse and fall dead.

FWIW: I was pulling out a F-350 from a snow bank in my B2 when the F-350 bumper ripped and the chain came loose, it went over my open hood (for safety), over my roof, and slammed into the tail gate. Chains will certainly snap back and not simply fall on the ground if the attachment point or a link breaks.

I have broken chains pulling snags from the bottom, things snap back at ground level just like a chain, they just do not travel as far as cable.

[Brucer]

I use an 8000 lb come-along, 3/8" wire rope chokers -- 50' & 60', and a 1/2" snatch block (rated for use with wire-rope, not poly). To anchor the come-along and snatch block I use 5/16" grade 70 chain with equally rated fittings (not the hardware store stuff). To adjust the length of pull, I invested in a cable clamp for the wire rope, the kind that utility companies use. It looks a bit like one of those clamps you use to pull barbed wire tight, but a heck of a lot bigger.

I won't use poly rope or webbing ... anymore. Not since I had a tree go over backwards against the rope. Tree was leaning backwards a bit, I pulled it upright with the poly rope, wind came up, rope started to stretch, tree leaned backward, extra weight stretched the rope even more, next thing you know the rope is getting thinner! And over she went, 180 degrees from where it was supposed to. DanG!

I will sometimes augment my wire rope system with a 3/4" poly rope attached to a 2000 lb. come-along. The whole point is to have a "stretchy" link that will exert pressure on the tree even after it moves. With a wire rope, you can have 6000 pounds of pull and the tree only has to move a couple of inches for the tension to drop to zero.

[DanG]

I don't use any poly rope at all.  The only thing I buy is nylon.  Some of them stretch and some don't, depending on how they are made.  The main thing I don't like about poly is that it deteriorates quickly in sunlight.

[tcsmpsi]

I am presuming that when when speaking of "poly rope" (Brucer/DanG), we are speaking of polyethelene?  I haven't figured out what it's good for.   ???

Chain, nylon strap, cable, rope...any of it under enough pressure to break while pulling on it, will follow the rules of force.

Below (from Bailey's), is fairly equivalent to the rope I use.  I have found this configuration the best and longest lasting of the ropes I have used.



3/4" Samson Stable Braid Orange Bull Rope 
Item # 34SBO
From $244.95
In Stock
Shipping weight 27.10 lbs.

Stable braid ropes are designed for demanding rigging situations. Stable braid is a 100% polyester double braid rope. The core is made of braided polyester utilizing Samson's Duron fiber technology. The sheath is braided over the core using a tough and abrasion resistant polyester weave. This combination gives you a high strength, low stretch bull rope. Samson then puts a colored polyurethane "Samthane" coating on the rope that enhances snag and abrasion resistance and minimizes UV degradation. 150' hank of rope weighs 27 lbs (12.3kg).

Rope Construction Double Braid (Class 1)
Diameter 3/4" (21mm)
Weight 18lbs/100ft (26.8kg/100m)
Specific Gravity 1.38
Average Breaking Strength 20,400lbs (9,300kg)
Work Load Limit (Spliced 5:1 ratio) 4,100lbs (1,900kg)
Elongation at 10% Average Breaking Strength 1.1%

[OneWithWood]

You will never regret investing in the correct rope for the job.

Kevin taught me that. 

[DanG]

I am presuming that when when speaking of "poly rope" (Brucer/DanG), we are speaking of polyethelene?  I haven't figured out what it's good for.   ???

Chain, nylon strap, cable, rope...any of it under enough pressure to break while pulling on it, will follow the rules of force.

I think the cheap stuff we're talking about is polyester, but they just refer to it as "poly rope."  The Bailey's ad you quoted, it says their rope is polyester with a polyurethane coating.  The only advantage I can see in a poly rope is that it doesn't stretch very much, no matter how it is made.  A nylon rope that won't stretch is a special double braid, and is expensive.  

Your "rules of force" statement is so, so true!  It makes a good case for staying the heck out of the line of fire, no matter what you're pulling on.  That's one of the problems with using a comealong...there ain't no remote control on those things.

[Brucer]

Your "rules of force" statement is so, so true!  It makes a good case for staying the heck out of the line of fire, no matter what you're pulling on.  That's one of the problems with using a comealong...there ain't no remote control on those things.

Which is why I use a snatch block to let me operate the comealong off to the side. It's not perfectly safe if the tree misbehaves, but better than being directly in the line of fire.

[mike_van]

What I've always called 'poly rope' is the yellow stuff, a little on the hard side. You can't get a knot to stay in it unless there's tension on it. At work [power co] We used poly-dacron rope,  good stuff it was!   The Samson braid rope is extremely strong, it's main drawback is the difficulty of making an eyesplice in the end. Just tying a knot cuts it's strength in half.