Hello folks,
I've got an opportunity to cut some walnut for a guy. I'm located in the Missouri Ozarks so that's not exactly anything special. I used to cut timber for a living but have been out of the game for quite a while. Anyways my conundrum is what to charge? If this job goes well it could easily turn into a bit of a side job for me. This guy is Amish so of course he wants it done cheap as possible but if I'm reasonable on what I charge and I do a good job then word travels through the Amish pretty quick. I'm thinking something like $30-$40 an hour with a $100 minimum? Jobs like this could be 3 trees or 100 trees so I need a minimum for sure. This particular job is 14 trees and according to the Amish man several of the trees are real Whoppers. It is tempting to charge more for cuttin walnut just because of their worth but I don't really feel like that's a good route to take if I want more jobs like this that could easily just be regular log trees. I will be using my own equipment of course and it will just be falling and topping. An hourly or by-the-tree rate seems most attractive to me.
If you guys could give me your opinions I would surely appreciate it especially if your anywhere near southern Missouri. Thanks!!
A per bdft rate would be fairest for you and him both. Depending on your experience level I guess, but I would charge 12-15 cents per foot myself and by no means should it be less than 10 cents. Also I would like to buy these logs, but he may already have a home for them unfortunately.
Few things to consider. Are you simply laying them down, or bucking, limbing, etc? Are these out in a pasture or somewhere close to a building, utility line, road, etc? Right now they are seeing money in those trees, so if it were me I would not do it too cheap, I hear what you are saying about more work, but who pays for your chain when you strike fence wire in the tree? What happens if she swings wrong and rips the crown out of another tree?
Under the right circumstances this could be a decent gig, or you could be working as the cheapest tree service in the country.
If you are only felling the trees or if you have to buck according to the client's wishes rather than bucking for scale, the fairest method is to charge by the stump inch rather than by the board foot. This also eliminates the need to scale the logs for payment and avoids disagreement on scale volumes. This method also assures that both parties know ahead of time what the cost is for each tree. Set your minimum pay per job and then figure out how much money you desire per day for longer jobs and how many stump inches you can cut in a day. The rate/ stump inch = daily desired pay divided by ( #of trees/day times ave stump dia. ). The rate per stump inch could vary by the difficulty of the particular job ( how many inches you could cut per day on that particular job).
I also agree with Southside logger's concerns which brings up the need to factor in the cost of good liability insurance in calculating your rate.
Both you guys have got some good points. If I charge by the bdft then I'm guessing i would have to wait for the buyer to scale them and charge off that? Do buyers usually leave some kind of receipt that states footage?
And ya, that's the thing, I don't want to become some sort of cheap tree service...As far as me damaging his property - if I don't like the looks of something I'm gonna leave it, I've got no insurance so can't afford something big to go wrong. As far as damage to other trees, I have no idea but I will discuss it with him. The job is for droppin them and limbing them, possibly bucking as well but that will be another day because the buyer will mark where they want the logs bucked and being Amish the owner has no chainsaw of course.
I do like the bdft idea though...He's talking like he expects something like $2-bdft so $.12 sounds cheap to me from his end of the deal and would be good pay for me, just kinda unclear on how the total bdftage will be arrived at, it would need to be from the buyer and be on paper.
I sure appreciate yalls responses
Baldbob - Now that's an idea I had not thought of and I like it. It gets me paid same day and keeps a 3rd party out of the equation. And I certainly prefer piece-work over hourly on this type of work. Insurance will have to wait but I do realize it will become a necessity if this develops into much of a side gig. I will be doing my very best to keep risk low for both me and the owner.
Thanks
The thought occurs to me that you may want a different rate for Walnut, which because of its high value requires extra care to avoid sliver pull and breakage, than for less valuable species.
Your right Bob, walnut is kind of it's own animal, you gotta baby it and just let it fall where it wants to for the most part. Least that's how I was trained to cut walnut.
Yes it would be off the scale of footage sold. You state Missouri, I've been in the timber industry in Missouri for 28 years, all mills and buyers put a total footage somewhere on paper in this region that I'm aware of. You state contract cutting, to me that would mean you are paid a per foot price or at very least a per tree price. Any other form of paying would be creative forms of paying an employee. I've cut many jobs for many different people/companies over the years in the state of Missouri. Standard that I'm aware of is a per foot. That rate will vary depending on species, equipment you provide, and difficulty of the harvest location or hazards. I've worked as a cutter supplying my chainsaw and gas and oil to a full contractor suppling all the way to skidder and log truck. Everything by the foot increasing by the more equipment supplied. I personally would ONLY cut on a per foot basis and have found that people trying to figure a more creative pay scheme were ultimately looking to get people to work cheaper. By the foot you get paid for what you do and they only pay for what you do......fair. More difficult harvest or small pain in the rear stuff... increase the rate. I got 10 cents to just cut and top and buck walnut with my saws, 20 years ago. So maybe 15 cents in today's world Is more in line, but only for an experienced cutter who is gonna not damage the merchandise. I'd sure rather pay 20 cents for a great job than 10 cents for a crappy job, myself
Quote from: Oddman on January 07, 2018, 10:43:33 PM
Hello folks,
I'm thinking something like $30-$40 an hour with a $100 minimum?
something to think about 30-40 an hour with your saw/saws working in the woods doing hard work now people are getting 15 an hour with no experience or equipment for flipping burgers you think your only worth 15 an hour more than them ???
Yes. Charge what you are worth!! I had a tree dude come in and drop one of my own walnuts that was in the way. (I know HOW to do it, but not a ton of experience with making sure they don't go sideways when falling).
He was the tree dude of ALL tree dudes...or, so he said. I repeatedly asked/warned him about taking his time and make sure it's done right. Yep, barber-chaired my 36" walnut butt log which by my accounts was veneer quality. It went about 1/3 the way though up 16'+.
I was so disgusted just walked away. What a joker. :-[ electricuted-smiley
This is a different area but here the rates are almost 80 to 90 for a contractor cutter then 150 to 175 an hour for a buncher that's you paying everything. The guys I know that fall on crews with insurance and all that jazz are taking home in the mid to upper 30's for a good cutter most of this wood is turn and burn stuff anymore.
I'm sure no expert.but I would not want to do it for no $30-40 an hour. Start doing that steady,and you would head for the poor house before you was done.
You guys are in a different world. My wife is a certified phlebotomist working in our biggest hospital at $11/hr with no benefits. 40/hr here is huge money. Most folks work all day for $100 or less. If he asks NY or OR rates theyll just find someone else.
Im a bit east of him, butim guessing the ozarks and appalachians are more similar than they are different.
for reference, one of the oldest mills next county over has a 4000 acre hardwood lot near me. Theyll let just about anyone cut and haul their logs off their mountain and down to their mill. It pays 20cents a board foot no matter what species or grade or how you get it done.
So 12cents just for cutting.. Not too bad. The expense is in loading and hauling, hand felling is peanuts.
I do kinda like the stump inch plan. First thing, you arent wasting unpaid hours scaling logs every day. Secondly, if you scale a log at 100 board feet and then the buyer says nah, i dont like that ring shake and pulls it back to 80foot you dont have a landowner saying you ripped him off. Third, theres no risk that the amish landowner doesnt sell the stuff to his amish cousins sawmill who doesnt put all the logs on a slip or otherwise cook the books.
If you give the guy an hourly rate with a number that high hes either gonna shrivel up and find a cheaper guy, or want you running through the woods. 'Hey whats takin so long with that saw chain' is not what i want to deal with all day.
To keep the landowner from getting fussy about the size of the butt flare you might wanna measure at DBH or maybe 12" above grade. Something that works for each of you.
I read a lot of commentary here and anywhere else that business is talked about that say basically the customer must pay pay pay for every loose hair the contractor encounters. I dunno man. You cant win em all. Especially not always at someone elses expense. When i go work for someone, if theyre considerate of my needs, i dont mind doing a little extra or taking a little less to be considerate of theirs. The customer is not my adversary, often they end up as my friends. Being flexible now often pays its dividend later.
Very good points there Mike. But I suspect the customer in this case is getting $2 / board foot for the log, at least twice that if it hits a saw. So the man who makes it possible for him works for 2.5 to 5%? That doesn't seem like a fair deal either.
Mike is right about the similarities in Ozarks and the Appalachian area - people just don't have the money to pay what would be poverty level on the west or east coast. But our living expenses here are quite low in comparison so it evens out. Nobody round here will get 15 an hour without skills or serious hard work.
And something I forgot to mention earlier is that he has another cutter that has been supposed to cut these trees but just hasn't showed up in weeks for some reason. I don't think I can go in trying to get all I can and expect to get into this business. But I want what's fair, what will cover my risk somewhat and what will allow me to maintain and upgrade my saws as needed.
Thanks alot guys for the replies. First thing I'm going to do when I talk to the man about it is ask what he was expecting to pay the other cutter. I've known the man long enough that I think he will talk straight with me.
Quote from: Southside logger on January 08, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Very good points there Mike. But I suspect the customer in this case is getting $2 / board foot for the log, at least twice that if it hits a saw. So the man who makes it possible for him works for 2.5 to 5%? That doesn't seem like a fair deal either.
I dont mean for this to sound ciritical, but it doesnt matter what the owner is getting. Ive not ever seen a logger job posting with pay based on species. My wife doesnt get paid different based on the patients income. A burger costs the same to a rich man or a poor one. Good for the landowner if hes got walnut instead of pine. Thats none of the loggers business. The logger has to decide what his expenses are and what other opportunities are competing for his time and at what pay rate. If the landowner is happy to pay what the logger is happy to accept then theyll both win. Thats the goal i think.
I do believe just levelling with the guy is a great idea. Ive done this a bunch and its a great way to probe if the guy is a jerk or not. Dont work for jerks, they sue alot and are never happy.
"Hey bill, we need to figure out a pay structure that were both pleased with. What did you have in mind?"
Consider the win and lose for each party on each structure and work something out. Beware that if you are working for board feet, it will really hurt your hourly rate in small wood. Maybe have graduated rate. Charge more per BF or stump inch in small stuff.
P.S.
Its always good to talk with the neighbors and research boundary lines before you cut. You could be held liable if he marks his neighbors trees. See if missouri has a GIS parcel viewer to help figure out where his boundaries are. Hunting apps have pretty good mapping tools. Google, bing and a gis viewer will give you 3 different views of the same place to feel pretty confident in boundary but beware they can be off 20 feet or so. Careful near edges if you can find a property pin or fence etc.
Thanks again Mike for all the advice. Never have cut a job on my own, used to be on a 3 man logging crew, I was the cutter but the boss did all the "butt covering" and customer relations stuff. I really would like this to turn into a side gig though so I need to get as much info as I can so it's fair for all involved.
Hi Mike,
Did not take that critically at all, I think we are saying some of the same thing but I didn't say it as well. Your point about smaller stuff rate kind of alluded to what I was trying to get at. I guess what I am saying is that one needs to not fear telling another what their labor is worth. There is skill in laying down veneer walnut that is not needed in slashing cedar to burn and if the owner is getting a premium for his product, and expects a premium job, then he should not expect to pay lackey wages. I am sure the guy who sweeps the hospital parking lot could get blood out of a patient, it may be from their nose, but it's still blood, it's your wife's training that gives her a premium skill and hopefully she is treated accordingly.
So I can buy a chainsaw cheaper in the Ozarks? Chainsaw parts are cheaper,chains too? Oil and gas too? A truck to haul all that around too? Parts for truck is cheaper too?And so on.
Humans and their time are cheaper in appalachia. Equipment is more.
Southside- that is a good point.
Mike is right about the different wage rates in different areas. The Feds have a prevailing wage rate for government funded jobs in different areas. When I do work for an outside employer in some of the big box stores it is nothing to see them have different wage rates in different areas. Twenty percent difference plus a sign on bonus in some areas. Not saying it's fair just a fact of life.
As far as falling timber you should get a rate that corresponds to your experience, equipment etc. Then it really doesn't matter what species your cutting. Yes the owner is going to get more for the timber if it's walnut but your cost's, labor etc. is going to be the same. If you charge landowner A one rate, landowner B one rate and landowner C a different rate and it will get out the ones you charged more will be upset why they had to pay more for the same work. Just my opinion. It and a dollar will get you two raisin cakes up at the corner stop and rob.
I know a fellow that is over the pricing for a grocery store chain that is regional. They have three different pricing tiers for the same product depending on what area the store is in.
I have no idea what you should charge, or even how. I feel like if you can swing the deal and both parties are happy is what counts. As far as wages being different in different parts of the country, they generally match or at least try to match the cost of living for the area, No your pickup, chainsaw, etc is no cheaper than anywhere lese, or at least not any more than the local dealer can stand, may even be higher, but the shop you have work on them generally is, so is land, housing etc.
prevailing wage here for a truck driver here is 59 and change an hour, a lot higher than a lot of places, but it is comparable to everywhere else on account of the cost of living.
Now all that said, I have worked for myself all my life and I do not expect to just make wages when doing work on contract, you should be able to make better than the wages for the area, whether you can or not.
A side note logging wages in Alaska are low compared to other jobs, I actually make less contracting my log truck out, and furnish fuel, tires, insurance, etc for less than just plain old wages. It is what it is, I do it because it is a change of pace and I LIKE it, money is not everything.
last i did for some one else, i charged about 100 bucks per semi load. idk if id do that now, but its a starting point. comes out to about 25 er 1000 bdft.
its all the same in every job the rich get richer and the poor get poorer ;D ;D
Quote from: coxy on January 08, 2018, 07:25:00 PM
its all the same in every job the rich get richer and the poor get poorer ;D ;D
So true. The local fast food restaurants still pay minimum wage to start. I do agree with Starmac. Beside your wages your "company" which is yourself should also turn a profit.
I had a guy once tell me that some folks would rather starve while working for himself than answer to company man every day. I think he was talking about himself and me at the time, but there is a lot of truth in it.
One thing I was taught when bidding jobs is figure out your expenses, your wages, and then what you want to make as profit. Expenses gas is roughly 2.75 a gallon, bar oil costs me 8 a gallon, your insurance, your health insurance figure everything in the first time you bid a job then you're not coming back with a higher rate later. I'd be willing to bet the party looking for a cutter goes through them since the other faller has been out tramping for higher paying work.
Well fellas I sure have got plenty to chew on...wish I had more experience in the field of contract work but I gotta start somewhere! One thing I keep hearing from y'all and others is to be real careful not to do it too cheap. Heck my problem is that I WANT to get out there and lay down some walnut, nevermind making wages and expenses and a bit extra...but I gotta be looking at the next job, could be it's one that other folks have passed over, rough ground, poor timber, underbrush...sure done plenty of that and I don't want to do it again for peanuts, that's for sure!
Thanks again guys, keep the advice coming, I will report back on how things go.
I think .20 a foot is good money. Crews around here cut and pile for .10-.15 a foot no trucking and the big mills pay around $28-30 per ton to cut and truck pulp. And burger flippers are $10++ and RNs are $25++. I'd charge the same for any tree species. Just try and figure your expenses and add and wage your happy with then add a little more for bad math and see what he says.
I've never heard of same pay rate regardless of species. A cutter going to the woods is gonna get paid a higher rate per foot to cut walnut than he will tie grade oak, and he's gonna get paid more to cut tie grade oak than to cut pallet grade trees, never heard of otherwise unless he wasn't getting fair end of the deal. If someone is gonna stick a saw in a walnut tree for me I'd sure want them to have more than 5 cents worth of experience and more than 5 cents worth of care for what he's doing. A good cutter might lay down 10,000 feet a day of low quality timber but he ain't gonna lay down 10,000 feet a day of walnut.
I think a good cutter or anyone working for someone should take the same care for any and all work. Weather it's low grade high grade it's not the cutters to judge or determine its value. It's only his job to get the job done to the best of his ability. I understand low grade gets paid less than high grade but I believe here that's due to the profit differance. But the percentage of pay vs value is about the same.
Oftentimes walnut is spread out a fair ways tree-to-tree...it had better pay more just for that reason alone, a guy can spend all day chasing down a couple dozen on one property.
Good point.
Well the reality of it is there is a difference in what is expected in cutting an $80 tree down or an $800 tree down. I would want to be paying someone enough that they aren't in a rush to get some footage layed down for the day and something gets busted. Also the knowledge of how to cut can be changing the butt log value by a $100 or more. You would be pretty sick if you had an 8-18 sawlog when you could have had a 9-18 veneer log if the guy would have cut it 10" lower for example. The knowledge is what's of value. You don't start driving at 16 in a corvette here, is what I'm saying.
Oh I'm sure there is a lot of guys who would love to have cutters cut their walnut for a pallet log rate. That is how the rich get richer 8)
Typically if there's a grade above say our standard export or domestic fir or say I need to jack the girl over the price would be wet at X amount per hour above rate, otherwise every species would be treated the same. Say one of my personal firs at 200+ feet roughly 5' dbh takes me at the most 15 to get it down, same tree going for a pole or has a back lean over a line could be half an hour or longer in 6 hours not a whole lot gets done then.
Probably the easiest is to charge by the tree, maybe $30.00 a tree or so. Just a guess, but wouldn't overall run of walnut average 200 bdft or so?- I don't have my stick handy right now and its been awhile. It would depend on if you have to buck, slash tops and chase trees all over like others have said.
I think we are starting to look at the difference between self employed contractors who find their own jobs, and employees who go where the boss tells them. Where i am at, the employee doesnt have the leverage to be negotiating per tree. He gets paid a fixed rate of some sort generally based on skill, speed and dependability. The employer covers tax withholding and cutter just worries about showing up, makin it to quitting time and getting his check on friday. I know a few and they dont negotiate tree rates per job.
Mike's comments on employer withholdings is important.
If you haven't been self employeed or done contract labor before, the taxes are a lot different. You want to keep all receipts, track your mileage, and charge a little extra to cover SSN and taxes. Keep track of income as well. You will probably get several 1099's.
When an employer takes care of taxes, they pay half your contribution to SSN. (In reality they cut what they pay you to match that, but it's money the majority of people never see or think about.) When you file taxes with self employed income, you pay your typical half + the other half your employer would have paid. It's good to set some a side each check so you don't get slammed with a large bill at tax time.
The good news is you will have more deductions, like vehicle depreciation, possibly a home office, part of the cell phone bill, etc.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 09, 2018, 09:14:29 AM
I think we are starting to look at the difference between self employed contractors who find their own jobs, and employees who go where the boss tells them. Where i am at, the employee doesnt have the leverage to be negotiating per tree. He gets paid a fixed rate of some sort generally based on skill, speed and dependability. The employer covers tax withholding and cutter just worries about showing up, makin it to quitting time and getting his check on friday. I know a few and they dont negotiate tree rates per job.
His title did say contract cutting, which in my mind is self-employed, with all the other pros and cons.. I assume he can legally do it for another guy that bought the timber. I just wonder why the Amish guy doesn't have a crew of his own, they do around here. As a matter of fact, last I was in this business English were hiring Amish, not the other way around.