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Woodlot Management Plans

Started by DanK, June 02, 2005, 09:28:06 AM

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beenthere

My perception in WI over the last 40 years, has been that the two work well together. And I have good friends who are both sides.
The landowner has to request advice from the State/District Foresters, and that advice may include suggestions to get a management plan worked up for their approval (if tax on property is involved). More and more, that has involved a consulting forester who gets paid to work up the management plan. At one time, the State foresters were going beyond their area of responsibility, and have at times been called on it. Still, as Tom says, for the small landowners, the State is about all they can get for help.
I'd like my District Forester to show up more often....last time was to pick up some free Princep that I was giving away, and before that was 8 years ago when he made a tree density count on the 5 acres I planted.  :) :)
This is a good discussion for the Forestry Forum.

Has to be tough times for consultants, when little wood is moving. Maybe they can become creative and develop some markets... ::) ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Gary_C

For me, one of the indicators of the problem is the number of people that come to this forum with sad tales of how they get ripped off by some logger. Now while I know, or at least suspect, that some of these stories are just that, stories, never the less, you could say to all of them "why did you let some guy you do not know loose in your woods and just say take what you want and give me whatever you feel is fair?" And how many are out there that do not come to the forum for help?

There is plenty of work out there, but the land owners just are not getting the message to hire a professional to manage your woodlot.  ::) ::)

I do not know what the answer is to make this better, but it sure seems like the state foresters do far more educating than consulting foresters. For you private consultants, how much of your work is sorting out these bad situations and cleaning the mess?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

Tom,

To look after the woodlot owner we formed Woodlot Owner Associations which spawned Marketing Boards. The Marketing Boards were government sanctioned. You could look at the staff as if they are government employees, but they aren't. The Associations brought woodlot owners together, gave them a voice where they work together and market wood products in large volumes. As you touched upon, the big mill didn't want little loads of wood streaming into the wood yard and they weren't willing to pay a fair price for it anyway. With the formation of marketing boards we could work with large volumes of wood and supply mills on contract with a negotiated price for the wood. To achieve this the Boards had to look at who actually was totally dependent on the woods business for their income and created 'Quota Holders' for a set amount of annual harvest volume.  These guys could be depended upon to supply the contract volumes. In order for a mill to function it has to have some assurance the volume is going to be coming in. But, the Quota system had it's flaws. Again, the little guy got pushed to one side because the Quota Holders had first dibs. There were a lot of small woodlot owners that were not happy that they could not get wood volume (in the form of mill tickets) to move a load of wood when they wanted to. Some folks just gave up on trying and others did what they had to to go around the marketing board, even if it meant using a mill's contract and not the negotiated Marketing board contract. (see some mills that sawed softwood also had contracts with other mills that took hardwood pulp or whatever) And with the Crown lands and Forests Act, we also had fair market access and didn't have to compete against cheep crown wood. That was eliminated in 1993 through industry lobby.

But then, the Associations in the early 90's began looking at how they could get landowners, who were absantee (initially), into the wood market. There were vacant lots being bought up and not managed because folks lived 100's of miles away. So some Associations began 'Land Services' programs to manage these woodlots, or at least offer their services, to anyone without the time or means.

Now, one thing that was not mentioned here is that every stick of wood sold through marketing boards has a levy. These levies pay wages and support land services. None of this money is government, but it is perceived by those that have to compete for the same services as a government subsidy. You might as well call that levy a tax, that goes into the coffers of the Association/Marketing Board. But, as you can see levies on wood sales is subsidizing work. Also, a woodlot owner who owns 3000 acres and cuts 300 cords of wood a year has no more access to those levy dollars he paid than the guy that cut 100 cords over a 10 year period. I do know of one Board that keeps an account of levies collected from wood sales by owner, but most do not. Every board operates a little differently, but they are all watched over by a 'Forest Products Commission'.

Now on the silviculture end of it, that is fully funded by government and administered by the Association staff. The wages come from this subsidy to administer the program. The government does not subsidize silviculture that generates an immediate return from wood sales. They just cover establishment and early tending of the treated stands. The government has to run checks and balances of course, so they send technicians to measure and assess what the Marketing board staff assesses. Which to me is complete redundancy because 99.9999% of the land base being treated is not owned by marketing board staff.

But getting back on who knocks on doors, it's generally harvest/logging contractors and private consultants. The marketing board does do it's best to market it's services but it's not doing a great enough job. I have seen people living within 10 miles of the office that never knew such a place existed. And 250 newsletters, which are sent sporadically at best, will not reach the majority of woodlot owners. I guess now I'm getting into who does the best at marketing themselves. I suppose everyone could do a lot better. I just wish we had some more Toms out their to give us all coaching lessons. ;D

Back to the vacuum cleaner salesman, he doesn't have to compete against the government coffers. ;)

QuoteWhen a forester knocks on doors, it hasn't got anything to do whether he is private or government.  It has to do with how he perceives his role in life and the industry.  The biggest difference is that the government employee is given goals to reach, the private employee makes up his own.
And that's the way it should be, while making a good living while walking along the path. ;)

A lot of us consultants have advertised our services in newspapers. Guess what, the largest forest company in New Brunswick controls and owns the papers. A lot of times the ads are being placed in obscure places, or refused advertising. Guess who is advertising services to, the forestry company. I asked the printing service for a quote on printing color flyers. I go in to pick them up and they aren't printed and the rate all the sudden changed. I stood there like an idiot why a guy went and photo copied the flyers. Guess who runs the flyer distribution?  I paid for some flyer distribution once and they never were delivered. ::) ::) How do you compete against that?  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

QuoteHow do you compete against that?

Simple.  You go knock on the doors with a Plan, a contract and a promise of taking care of your customer. :)

If you can't sell them, you knock on another door.  Then you come back next year.. and the year after that, etc.  If you are doing a good job, the ones you sell will be the best advertisement you could ever buy.

SwampDonkey

I knew ya had the answer somewhere.  ;D  8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

In my area, the paper companies do better management work than many consultants.  But, consultants are beaten in the marketplace by most mills.  The reason is name recognition.  Very few consultants do anything to build up their business.  We have on consultant that puts a sign on his jobs.  Good advertising for him, but, you only get the drive bys.

As for knocking on doors and handing out flyers, we have a few mills that do that.  We have industry sponsored events, such as lumberjack contests and milling events.  Rare is the time that a consultant shows their face, let alone participate.  There are professional organtizations for foresters, and the average landowner has never heard of them.  I wonder if the landowner has ever heard of the Society of American Foresters or the Associaton of Consulting Foresters or the Foresters Guild.  I bet they have heard of the Tree Farm system and Smokey the Bear.

The biggest problem with the whole profession of foresters, loggers and sawmills, is that they're deathly afraid that the guy down the road is going to get something that they won't.  They won't work together.  Its always A against B against C.  

The landowner has to take all the risks, and share the rewards with everyone else.  Who's there when he needs some questions answered?  The service forester.  Who's there when he needs a few trees to plant?  The service forester.  So, when they want to do something with their timber, who do they call?   Not the person that they have given all their trust to, but, someone new.  Trust has to be earned through countless contacts with the landowner.  

As for those horror stories of deals gone bad with loggers, I've also seen deals go bad with consultants.  I know of one that made more money on a timber sale than the landowner did.  We've also had posts here where consultants went out and gave a landowner an individual tree value.  Consultants give out bad advice at times.  Who pays for that?

I think there should be some sort of way that both consultants and government foresters can work together with the landowners.  It sounds like WI might have something that works.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Ron, I might be wrong but I would be willing to bet that some consultants get calls from former customers with questions they can answer over the phone. I talk with about 40 woodlot owners a year and not all ask many questions about the wood business. But, a few do and I quite often get the grand tour and answer questions for a good part of the day. I have nothing to loose because I will be thinning his ground. You can tell the ones that are real interested because they want to make sure you see all their thinnable ground. They want to make sure your spacing the trees properly and that the trees are tall enough for spacing. They also have  a certain preference for tree species. They call you up about cruising a woodlot they are interested in buying and they wave from their pickup if your walking along the highway they happen to be travelling on.  After awhile some even refer to you as 'My Forester'. ;) :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Gary_C on November 27, 2007, 07:37:03 PM

I do not know what the answer is to make this better, but it sure seems like the state foresters do far more educating than consulting foresters. For you private consultants, how much of your work is sorting out these bad situations and cleaning the mess?

Our government foresters don't get into legal battles over wood theft issues on private woodlots. Consultants are hired to do the stump cruises and possibly defend their findings in court. Also, private land silviculture is done by consultants. Someone clearcuts my woodlot, the logger says the marketing board has a silviculture program that may help plant your forest land or the consultant comes along in 12 years and identifies thinning on a woodlot and discusses the silviculture program with the owner. Some of the mess is fixed by tax dollars but it's the consultant doing the work. Tree planting usually involves marketing board staff being contacted by the owner because they were made aware of the planting program by the logger. Some lots are identified for silviculture by marketing boards through management plans. But in some areas that has been dropping off because plans are no longer subsidized by some boards.

In the early years a lot of opposition was given to tree planting private woodlots because it was seen as general tax revenue going into fixing what was left by some big logging contractors who solely clearcut the land base.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on November 27, 2007, 08:25:35 PM

As for knocking on doors and handing out flyers, we have a few mills that do that.  We have industry sponsored events, such as lumberjack contests and milling events.  Rare is the time that a consultant shows their face, let alone participate.

I don't know the answer Ron, but I do have an idea. Seems private consultants and industrial foresters are often at odds for different reasons.  Consider forestry conferences put on by academics. Most of those conferences involve researchers from government employees who also get funding from the big forest companies in partnerships. Some researchers may be company employees who get government co-funding to research a woodland salamander or a rare Frobisher's Lousewort in their woodland operations. Unless your the rare consultant who has been successful to get a research grant you aren't likely to show up. The main reason is, how would you know about it? You might know if you know the web address advertising the conference or subscribe to a publication advertising the event. Also, consider the entrance fees. It might cost up to $250 for a seat, plus a day or more of lost wages to sit there. You are not likely to receive a personal invitation to come to the conference either.

QuoteThere are professional organizations for foresters, and the average landowner has never heard of them.  I wonder if the landowner has ever heard of the Society of American Foresters or the Association of Consulting Foresters or the Foresters Guild.  I bet they have heard of the Tree Farm system and Smokey the Bear.

That is mostly because the public is never invited to any meetings or conferences. The meetings are generally AGM's among members. Again meetings are advertised on websites and glossy industrial forestry magazines. 99% sitting at these meetings are government, industrial and NGO employees. A lot of woodlot owners think of their loggers as the forester, because they work in the forest industry. Sometimes, a good many instances, the logger is a forester or Forest Technician. So it is easy to perpetuate the belief that the logger is a forester even if the regular logger never calls himself one.

Quote
The biggest problem with the whole profession of foresters, loggers and sawmills, is that they're deathly afraid that the guy down the road is going to get something that they won't.  They won't work together.  Its always A against B against C.

Yup, and doesn't help when a CEO of a forest company shoots down the woodlot owner and private sector forester. I've seen that more than once at taped news conferences every time woodlot owners want to voice their concerns over forest management, the environment and market access.


QuoteThe landowner has to take all the risks, and share the rewards with everyone else.  Who's there when he needs some questions answered?

Assuming all landowners are above board and honest. ;) I could discuss a few stories. ;D 

In my area, the marketing board staff are contacted who , for example, may in turn contact an insect specialist in government, a reference book on disease and insects, or might have the answer himself. Or the owner calls the forester or technician he has worked with in the past for some answers. The other option is to call the forest ranger offices who may answer or refer the caller to the marketing board staff.

Not everyone has confidence in their marketing board. ;) We have one board that has been under investigation for 2 years now. Even Revenue Canada are digging through the file cabinets.  ::)

QuoteAs for those horror stories of deals gone bad with loggers, I've also seen deals go bad with consultants.  I know of one that made more money on a timber sale than the landowner did.  We've also had posts here where consultants went out and gave a landowner an individual tree value.  Consultants give out bad advice at times.  Who pays for that?

Nobody is perfect. We always remember the negatives and sometimes it doesn't go away for a long time. Deals have also gone bad with government employees. I have a good one to share with ya. ;)

Quote
I think there should be some sort of way that both consultants and government foresters can work together with the landowners. 

Me to, but there are a lot of egos out there. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Corley5

Conservation Districts in Michigan that have a forester on staff have been forced to start charging fees for their services.  The grants that funded the positions have been cut from the state budget  :(  It's not a money grab on the part of the Districts it's survival
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Scott

I think that we need to give private forest landowners more credit than we are. They will seek out the professional forestry help that they choose to and want, whether it be public service foresters, private consultants, and yes even the logger or sawmill owner. There will be good and bad in all based on personal opinion unless ethics and laws are violated.

There are many avenues for private forest landlowners to seek out and receive information for help on forest management once they get into the "support network". Look at how many have found this Forum and hopefully have been helped or had their questions answered.

Many consultants are members of the Tree Farm system, National Woodlands, State Forest Associations, SAF, MACF, etc. etc. and associate with private landowners on a regular basis.

I'm glad that I never had to go door to door and can refer forest landowners to public sector foresters, other private consultants, and loggers when I can't help them in a timely manner or they are beyond my service area.



~Ron

Phorester

"....  while the private sector foresters get licensed or registerd and THEY run the forestry world- it's THEIR profession."

Excuse me, JOEZ....., you are a professional forester who chose to work for himself. I'm a professional forester who chose to work for a State Forestry agency. We are both Foresters, but with different employers. 

It's not YOUR, THEIR, or MY profession.  It's OURS.

Also, private landowners come to us for advice.  If it is advice on selling their timber, I refer them to a consulting forester, as our Agency policy instructs us to do.  I realize it might not be this way in every State, so blanket statements from both you and I do not apply in this discussion. I would do it anyway because over the years I have come to realize that's it's the best way for a landowner to get top dollar for his timber, get a good logging job in his woods, and leave his woods in better shape than if he tries to sell it himself.  I'm on your side, sonny.

In recommending that landowners hire a consulting forester to handle their timber sale, this gov't. forester directly generates work for your brethern in Virginia that they would not get otherwise.  I guarentee you that in VA we govt' foresters put more timber on the market indirectly than consultants do directly, due to the very fact that we do not charge for management plans. 

I truly feel that a forest managment plan is indeed worth a lot of money to a landowner, but you and I both know that if landowners had to pay for management plans, I expect 90% would never get one done. So a lot of forestland gets a management plan that would not otherwise, without plans from a Government service Forester.  And when we recommend in those free plans to landowners that they cut their timber, we strongly push them to hire a consultant to handle the sale for them. 

Your welcome.   ;D



underdog

Very interesting.
This thread has not been visited in awhile.
Maybe i need to be hanging out with the black helicopter crowd.
But the way i read my states help is.
They will come out and help me figure out how to manage our property.
But in return they want to nose into every nook and cranny, document it all for whatever purpose.
Then i must: implement there plan and protect the land from erosion and prevent pollution of streams and lakes.
That means i will always be on there list for future checkups at there discretion and with there truck load of government rules and regulations. Wetlands - Forestlands - Pasturelands- ponds- streams-etc.
Heck i would probably end up arrested and property seized for pi**ing behind a tree.
No Thanks.
I think i would rather try and turn it over to a University and let them take care of it till i die.
Least then if i get to stay on the property i could watch the hotties come and go and check out all there cool new toys.




SwampDonkey

It's hard to get my point across that the woodlot resource has to pay for the work being carried out. Does the consultant work for nothing? Does the gas company give out free gas? Trimble giving out free GPS units lately? Oregon Prisms giving out wedge prisms? GM giving away pickup trucks?

No.

So, since the woodlot owner is asking for the services he should be paying for them, just as he would pay the mechanic to fix his car. He is expecting some degree of revenue from his woodlot and often hasn't the means to do it himself. So someone is investing their services and equipment to help meet his needs.

If it's not profitable for the consultant, then it's not likely to be profitable for the woodlot owner who has to purchase the means to get the job done. Buying a $50,000 tractor and winch to harvest $20000 of wood now (and that's not clear profit), and not again for 15 years, doesn't make sense and I'm genuinely looking at this as a woodlot owner when I state that.

Now when it comes to silviculture, especially in our climate up here, the only way any degree will get done is from government aid. The woodlot owner will be with his maker before any benefits will be realized. And that subsidy is actually supporting forestry in the future with quality timber and jobs and revenue, while making a job today for anyone able bodied and willing to work for it. That being said, if a woodlot owner wants to do the silviculture I'm all for it 100 %. But, again speaking as a woodlot owner I might not want to spend the $1500 for the saw, when it only cost $400 to have the work done by the consultant with the government subsidizing most of the work cost. If there is more than 10 acres of thinning to do then the woodlot owner will only start turning a profit after two weeks if he works all day for two weeks. A good thinner will have the ground covered in 2 weeks, meanwhile it could be a summer project for the woodlot owner, if it gets done at all. Those using a chainsaw are done before the first acre is complete.  :D

On the wood harvesting end of it, it might cost the consultant $12/cord, including  wage and profit, to do a plan and look after the woodlot in a sustainable manner. But, the government can do it for $3. Then the only fair shake, in my mind for the consultant, is for the government to pay him the $9/cord difference. Have the consultants certified, provide the woodlot owner with a list of local consultants and carry on. But, collect the $3 levy from the woodlot owner up front. And I can tell you that it will be darn hard to collect all the levy because the owner will often want more harvested that planned for.

There is also a third dimension to this business. Woodlot owner doesn't want to deal with middle men, cash up front from the harvest contractor, and let nature run it's course with the left overs and new regeneration.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cedarman

The economic side of growing trees is just one aspect.  Our society is demanding that we grow trees, treat the land properly, control erosion, keep invasives away, supply an aesthetically pleasing landscape and on and on.  This is not part of the economic side.  If you want my land to be managed a certain way, then fork over your money to help me get the results you want.  The district foresters paid with taxpayer money help us with management plans etc. because society is willing to pay for the service.  I think there are 3 ways to get me to do societies bidding, shame me into doing it,  make a law that I must do it, or give me financial incentive to do it.  Otherwise I will do as I please.  I may decide to spend my own money on TSI and good management or I may decide to make a field, I may run cattle in the woods, I may divide and sell off parcels.  But if society wants me to manage my land in a certain way, give me the incentive to do it.  Does cost share come to mind here?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

steveforest

I am new at this, but I have never had a state forester return my phone call. Unfair competition?
Don't mess with success

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