smaller bandmills

[bgautsch]

Greetings everyone,

As a new registered member, I wish ask for input on the pros and cons of the Woodmizer LT 15 and Timberking 1220.  I have a small part time shop and am interested in sawing for furniture wood, slabs for bookmatching grain patterns and slicing up stumps and crotchwood.  I have sources for short logs under 4 feet.

Technical experiences, good and not so good would be appreciated.

[Mesquite Man]

I am very new to saw milling myself.  I just took delivery of my new TimberKing 1220 on Thursday.  This is the first mill I have every owned.  I did a lot of research before buying and I decided on the TK 1220.  Both are EXCE#LLENT mills but I prefered the TK.  Here is why...

TK has a larger throat than the WM
TK will cut a larger diameter log than WM
TK will cut a longer log then WM
TK has larger standard engine than WM
TK uses an aircraft grade cable to move the carriage.  WM uses a rope.
TK has a 2 yr warranty.
Besides, red and black looks better than orange:)

So far I am really impressed and pleased with my TK.

Sitruc

[ADfields]

The drowback I see in the Woodmizer LT-15 is the feed crank.   If I was to go with a Woodmizer I would want one with the cantilevered head on it, to me that is what sets Woodmizer apart from the others with 2 tracks.   I had to go for the $5500 mark also but I got an MSG 250E bi-directional mill and I do love it.  It cuts both ways and I can slab a log up and not move the slabs till it's all done just by cuting  the other way right under the slab I just cut.  ;D   At the $5500 price you get a lot of stuff on it stock, 13 hp Honda, auto cuting fluid and things not on others.   The one thing I dont like is the hand crank on the head up/down, when your at the botom after cuting a log it's a long crank back up for the next log.
Andy

[ADfields]

Beter photo.

Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

How hard does it crank up and down? Stick a couple of pulleys and electric motor on it. The motor will turn free going down. Power it up.

  I asked once before and got "ignored" ?? :D, on a different post. What keeps the blade from being pushed off on the return cut??? Could you supply a pic of the blade, guides, whatever?? Would like to see how it works,  Harold

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I think that is the one that the engine and cutting head spin around at the end of the cut to come back.??  
  
   Orange is easy to see so if you let the brush grow up around it you can find it easer.  I have seen alot of little mills grown up in the brush with a washtub over the engine but never a orange one.  Maybe it is resale, maybe it was useable??  Most of the small mills have no feed system other then pushing and a lt15 can be pushed.  The crank if for a steady even feed which makes a big differance in the quality of lumber.
  ARKANSAWYER

[Tom]

Hey there bgautsch,

That's a mighty powerful first post.  Gonna' jump in there with both feet, eh?  Your concern over sawing the short logs should be one of your guiding points. Most mills are built with no less than 8 foot logs in mind.  It may be that you should consider alternate clamping systems regardles of the mill you choose.

I have a friend with an LT15 who saws his own cabinet wood and has even done a little custom sawing for others.  He likes it.  He still drools over a bigger mill but says that the LT15 does all he asks of it.

I have a customer with a Norwood and he loves it.  I still cut a large logs for him.  He's in his 80's and just can't handle the weight of the logs, I have hydraulics. He also cuts for his own furniture business.

I have a friend in Georgia with an old Timberking Hydraulic mill.  I'm not sure of the model #.  He is pleased with his mill but, even more importantly, has been pleased with the company.

You will find that much of the happiness you experience with your mill will be directly proportional to the relationship you have with the company that manufactured it.  It is an option that is worth shopping for and as important as the hardware.

You will also find that the blade you choose will ultimately be what makes the mill.  The blade is where "the rubber hits the road".  Bandmills, chainsaws, lathes and tractors  all work best when the Blade, gouges and plows are properly developed and worthy of the task at hand.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum. You're gonna like it here. ;D

[Noble_Ma]

I bought a Baker/Enercraft 18HD mill.  It's completely manual with an electric start Honda 20HP.  I can cut logs down to 32" in length at 30" diameter.  The mill will handle 20'6" logs max.  I have cut everything from white oak to white pine with no problems.  I can tell when the blade is getting dull just by the feel when I push the head through the log.  It is a lot of work cutting on a manual mill but the lumber quality is as good as I've seen on larger mills.  I think my best day on the mill was about 800 bd/ft so far.  It is a lot of work and I can't stress that enough.  I did just like you are right now.  I asked for advice and the one thing that sticks out in my mind, is people telling me to get hydraulics if I could afford them.  I couldn't afford the extra money for an Orange machine but would not think twice if I was going with a hydraulic machine.  The Baker/Enercraft people have been great too.  Service is as important as the quality of the mill you purchase.  Good luck.

[Bibbyman]

The "cuts both ways mill" does involve revolving the head.  I seen it in operation and on short logs - say 8-10' it takes longer to turn the head around than to simply return like other mills.  On longer logs, it may show some time savings - but I'd think you'd need more track to be able to have space to spin the head around.


Look Ma! One hand!


People keep poking at the LT15 having a crank feed system.  To me, that's a bogus argument because if you don't want to crank it, you CAN push it. (Reminds me of my dad and the first car he bought with cruse control.  He didn't want it, wouldn't use it and never trusted it.  It may take over the car when he wasn't looking - you know.)

The LT15 actually does have a semi-cantilever head.  The posts on the right only support the post on the left that hold the cantilever head up.  
Wood-Mizer LT15 sawhead

I think they have counter sprung the head on the LT15 to make it easier to crank up.

Bed extensions are available for the LT15 to cut from here to eternity - or as far as you want to go. Comes standard with 2 sections that will saw up to 11' something.  A lot of people go ahead and get one more section to get 17' sawing length. Add more later if you have the need.

[D._Frederick]

WM    LT15,
The crank and a rope that slips when it is wet is not user friendly, go to Woodweb for lot of posting on the LT15.

[SawBilly]

I had researched a lot also, and had decided to get the LT15, I think it was the best small mill on the market. However, I managed to get an investor to help, my Dad, and he wouldn't have anything but hydraulics, he is older and wiser and had the available money to help me
, so we got a Timber Harvester fully hydraulic. I am real pleased.

[Tom]

The mill can still be pushed even if the rope slips. It's not complicated.  It's only a windless and more raps add more friction.  

No need going to any other forums, unless you want to get into a "mine's best" argument.  We have LT15 owners here too.

[Kevin]

I fired up my LT 15 today to mill an ash tree that I took down a few days ago, it has always worked for me and I`ve never once had the rope slip.
I have operated it all day long in a drizzle where the rope was soaked and never had it slip.
It does stretch with the rain and must be tightened a few times but I tie a prusik hitch in the rope and adjustment is quick.

How Sweet It Is (link)

[ADfields]

Yes the MSG mill head swings back around the other way.   At the end of the cut you unlock a lever swing the head around and relock it for the next cut.  It took me longer to rite it hear than to do it on the mill!   When it's unlocked the head turns on the big alltherd in the center.   I have 26 feet of track and can cut both ways on a 21'10" log if it's in just the right spot, 24' 7" if I onley cut one way.   I have 10 bunks and thay can all be set up an inch aprt or moved out as far as you want, I can cut a 16 inch long chunk of fire wood on 3 bunks if I want to.   I can drop a band gide down a bit and cut tapered siding or 24 inch shingels a bunch at a time, like 30 in a pass without extra stuff.   The track is just 3"X3"X3/8" angle and the bunks lock onto it with set bolts and can be moved on the rail with no trouble, just need a 9/16 socket wrinch.   With the mill price of $5495.00 (befor shiping it to Alaska) I got 3 plane bunks, 2 dog & knee bunks and 40foot of rail, 20 foot per side.   Extra bunks are $45 and bunks with dogs, knees are $80 and track extension connectors (if you want to cut longer and have no welder) would be $55.   It all works very very well for me!  

Deadheader I could get the power up/down unit for $130 or so but thay tell me at MSG the 13 hp Honda I have (stock) wont make enouf juce to pull it and will kill the starter/genarator combo on it.   Thay say if I want that I need an 18hp kohler, 20/24 hp honda or 24 hp Onan to pull it without trouble.   It's not that bad it's just a long crank up to a new log, my right arm is biger than my left from it now.   :D


The LT-15's semi-cantilever head to me is no beter than all the other 2 track mills around, if the track has a twist in it or is not flat when you set up you get a twisted cant and then twisted lumber.   Dont get me wrong as soon as I can move up my next mill will be a LT40super but I dont like the LT15 no beter than other 2 track mills.   I have used the LT15 and found it kinda slow and it just did not make me want to plunk down my very hard earnd $5500 for it but the MSG did when I found it after a year of looking at sawmills, I placed my order on the spot!   But if we were talking somthing other than a small budget priced mill it's Woodmizer all the way for me, I just know a good value when I see it!
Andy

[ADfields]

I just wached that clip.   In the time he took to stop the blade and take the slab off I would have my MSG turned around and the walk back to the other end would be cuting.
Andy

[Kevin]

When I set my LT-15 up last Spring there was a foot of snow under it and within a few days the snow was almost gone.
I didn`t relevel the mill and it certainly wasn`t level when I finished and every board was true end for end side to side.
After towing it behind my snowmachine, milling several logs and running it back home it wasn`t out of adjustment anywhere.
I was really surprised.
In the picture below you can see how the snow was melting from under the boards that the supports were resting on.

[Bibbyman]

To clarify,  when I stated that the cut coming and going mill took longer to turn around then to return on short logs,  I really didn't have first hand knowledge of that as a fact.  

I saw the mill demonstrated at a forestry show.  The demonstrator was sawing with it "saw down and pull back" for next cut.  I questioned him as to why the mill head was suspended as it was.  He demonstrated the head revolving and said it would cut both ways.  I asked why he wasn't sawing both ways and he stated that it took longer on short logs to turn the head than to just return.  He said there would be a time advantage with longer logs.  Sounded like a rational explanation to me and I didn't have a reason to doubt him.

[Kevin_H.]

I think the secret is to ask all your questions, but to find a mill that you like to run, some may have a better this or a bigger that but if you dont like the way it runs than you wont want to get out and use it. You must enjoy doing it or it will get real old real quick. I have been running my mill for about 5 years and I still like doing it. Get as much hands on as possible.
This is a great place to ask questions and get opinions. ;D

[ADfields]

Bibbyman
If we are talking very short logs like 4 foot then it could be faster to return it for the next cut but I never cut under 8 foot logs.   The time saver for me in cuting both ways is I dont need to move boards around after every cut, I dont move them untell the log is all cut up most of the time.   If I edge on the mill I use a strap to tye the boards back togather and roll them like a cant, all at once right on the mill.  

Kevin
I have never pulled mine with my sled, but I do pull the logs with my sled (if we ever get some snow hear in Alaska) out to the road.   I am shure it would be fine thow as you drop the head down onto stops 1/2" off the bunks for transport.  The onley thing that could get out of adjustment on this hill is the locking arms and thay are open in transport so I dont see how thay could, all the other stuff is welded.   The MSG sits on 3X3 steel angles and is not ridged like the LT-15 track so it would need releveling in the meltsnow you had.   If I wanted to use it like you use your LT-15 I would bild a ridged box frame for the MSG's track to sit on cut on and the ends like skids, with the head on one end and a sled on the other it would be good to go.  

Like others have sead you need to think about how you will use a mill befor you look for what mill to buy.   If I lived in Washington or B.C. Canada I would think hard about a M.D. or a swinger but thay would be not so cool in this part of Alaska as ther is not a lot of big logs around hear.   Also like Kevin_H sead you MUST like it!   I think it's got to call to you in your sleep or you will never use it after the pain of the first good hard days sawing.   We all have our goods and bads just like the sawmills do, the trick is to mach the right user to the right sawmill I think.
Andy

[woodmills1]

I have been reading this thread with interest, even though I have an HD-40 and not a smaller mill.  The cut in both directions argument would on the surface seem to give better production, but when coupled with the statement of leaving the boards in place, wouldnt the time taken to remove them cancle the saved time.  In other words, working alone I get my best production when I lift the head and return after a cut, then lower and start a second cut, then remove and stack the first board while the saw makes its second cut.
    Also, try as I might my saw is never dead level.  I try for a slight downhill in the cut direction, as I find much better speed and smoother cut this way, so if I could return cut the return would be slightly uphill, thus slower.

[Bibbyman]

ADfields,

I never thought about sawing logs "through and through" without turning them.  We've only done it a hand full of times and then only when the customer wanted all the boards they could get with barky edges for some craft project.  The way we did it was to saw almost to the center, remove the top flitches,  then flip and clamp at the lowest position.

What kind of clamping system does your mill have that will allow you to saw all the way to the deck without flipping and re-clamping the log?

We have changed out sawing habits when sawing on our new LT40 Super with 3ph electric motor.  The up/down and forward/back motors are so fast,  we can cut out the end of the log, go up above the slab and return without even taking time to stop the blade.  Using the Accuset,  we can bump the down lever and then push the forward lever.  In time it takes for the head to reach the log,  it has already found it's mark for the next drop.  We'll cut the slab and 2-4 flitches (depending on log size), then pull the slab and push the flitches onto the loading arms.  The cant is turned 90 and the process repeated.  Same for the third face.  On the forth face of larger logs,  we'll cut the slab and a couple of fitches or boards and then flip the cant 180 and saw all the way to the deck.  On smaller logs,  we'll just saw all the way to the deck.  

Grade sawing is a whole different game.  Here we remove the slab, flitch or board after every cut so we can judge the face.  We may turn the cant after only cutting one board to get to the best face.

[ADfields]

woodmills1
You got to keep in mind with the little mills like this it wont cut unless someone is pushing/cranking it so you cant do other things as it cuts.   If you have a power feed and power up/down cuting both ways will slow you down I bet.   Thats why I want a LT-40hd/super or somthing like that when I grow up, so I dont need to push and crank.  ;)   For the money ($5500+$500 shiping to Alaska) I have in my MSG I love it and think it's the best around (in it's class) for what I do with it.   Even the LT-27 would far surpass the small mills but it's neer twice the money striped to bare bones.   I use a clear 15 foot milk hose with some blue windshild washer fluid in it as a level and my bed is as close to dead on as it gets.   It's also laged down to concreet and stayed level and upright after our 7.9 quake hear last week.    The mill in the photo is my lawers mill at the state fair this summer, it's on a 24 foot ridged trailer and we shoot for dead on side to side, in the ballpark end to end and look down the rails for a dip, bow or twist.   I have not found it to cut harder one way than the other but Alaska wood is not very hard cutting stuff if we had Oak or somthing it could but I would not think so.



Bibbyman
I cut at least 3 sides and then lock the cant down on the mill to cut to the deck.   The clamping systom sucks, it's a knock off of the LT-15's set up and I dont know how a guy could make it beter without puting a bunch more money in it and then you just as soon move up to a hyd mill.   All I cut is cabin wood for the wife and I to use in our rental cabins we bild.   I do have a bunch of people that bring logs around for me to cut now but never considered sawmilling to be my "business" as I am somewhat retired now.   We sold a heavy towing and recovery business after 24 years of it in Arizona and moved to Alaska, most like to move south so we just went the other way.   I have never done grade sawing and I dont think we have a market for it hear in Alaska, all we have is small Birch, Spruce and Black Cottnwood.   Up hear people that want wood just go and get a sawmill when the PFD check (state divadend money) comes in the mail, thers 11 people on my road and 5 of themhave bandmills, every body has an Alaskan mill up hear.   Most of the logs around hear are under 14" and a 24" is about unherd of without hart rot in it, I do have a 48" Birch out back but I think a bear winters inside it.
Andy

[woodmills1]

sorry I missed the push part.  I guess that would make the turn around of benifit.  My mill is a 93 and the feed motor is i think 1/3 HP so there are times where I really notice if I am going up hill.  what kind of birch have you got.  I can get some nice grade lumber from our white and some of the black birch.  Most of the red oak I have been harvesting to cut off my land is really of the smaller diameter class.  I am trying to thin around my better trees to let them grow for another 10 or so years.  This patch has not been cut since it burned nearly 100 years ago.  from what I have gathered the fire came up the slope from the north and pretty much stopped at the top of the hill on my property.  that might explain why the land to the south is predominantly pine while mine is red oak with a smatter of birch, maple, and beech.

[ADfields]

woodmills1
We have Paper Birch also called White Birch or Canoe Birch up hear.   It's very good wood and I make about everything out of it.   Thay just dont get that big this far north and by the time thay do thay have hart rot.   I dont even take a 2nd look at a 32incher in the woods for lumber as 95% will have hart rot, I do still cut them for firewood.   The lumber I like hear the best is Sitka Spruce.   I have a lot of good ones on my place but I like looking at mine so I cut other places.   It is great wood and underrated around hear for some reason.   Alaska is chocked full of trees but onley a handfull of species, I came from Arizona and miss all the diferant kinds of trees we had ther.   I wish we had Maple, Oak and Beech around hear! :(
Andy