Are sawmills that buy logs customers? What do loggers think they are? I know some of you are loggers, some of you are both loggers and buyers of logs and sawmillers.
The Story:
Very part time logger of cedar brings in a load of small old cedar. Some of the bigger cedar has lain in the weeds so long the sapwood has turned doughty. I look at the load and say the sapwood is gone and we will have to just measure the red. He is fine with that. I ask where the big logs went to. He said he was just helping a guy clean up a logging site and that the big cedars were sold several years ago. I know where they came from and know that I did not receive the big logs. So I decline the load and tell him to sell the small stuff where the big stuff was sold. He told me the mill didn't want the little stuff. I told him that I would not subsidize another mill so that they could buy the big logs and us take the little stuff and junk. I will either buy all the logs including small and junk or none at all. He was a little miffed. But understood where I was coming from. Took the load and left.
At the moment I am awash in cedar with more coming in all the time.
In the position as buyer, am I not a customer? Some loggers think I should buy what ever they bring in, when ever they bring it.
It's your money, you get to set the rules. I've seen log yards that didn't have rules. They get junk dumped on them.
By the same token, when a customer walks into a wood yard, they should also have the respect to not have junk dumped on them. I've seen it work that way, too. That's good 'nuff or they won't know the difference is not a way to treat your lumber customers.
Quite often I do not handle the order or help load the truck or trailer when people pick up. But I always ask whoever loaded and handled the customer if they were happy with the product. If there is ever a problem or question, I am on it immediately. Rarely have to do that though.
I just think that many loggers do think of sawmills as customers.
If you are paying for a product or service you are a customer.
Although I don't buy logs I feel offering a lower price would be an easy solution, but not needing them I can certainly see why you would send him on his way. By him telling you that the other mill didn't want them and that the logs have been on the ground for 3 years says to me that he's trying to get money any way he can and there's a good chance that he will haggle, if it's even worth it to you to mess with at all.
if i don't get a shot at the chicken food don't expect me to buy in on the poop :)sometimes the loggers need reminding of just because we buy wood dosen't mean we have to put up with being a dumping zone.
being a small operator, I fully understand what you described, You by no means are small, and will say I see my fair share of junk from loggers that want to dump a load that other mills culled. As you did I have turned some away, while at times have bought it.. We are most definitely customers in this regard, the issue for small outfits like me is take what I can get and use, and bite the bullet when it's poor. Which seems like quite often.
I see this from all sides in that I run a mill, in that we run our own harvest operation and sell logs to other mills as well as our own, and that we also buy in logs off others.
As logging contractors we often sell the best of the logs on, either to veneer buyers or other mills. Being the best of the logs I charge a premium for them and the deal is really simple - if you dont want to pay the premium you either (a) buy off someone else or (b) take a lower average grade of log. You ain't getting the cream of whats available for the same price as you'd get the average and thats just how it is. But maybe next week I'll need the sale a little more and my price will drop, or maybe I'll need the logs in the millyard and the price will go up.
As far as buying logs into the mill from other loggers goes I run the same basic principle. I'll pay more for good logs then for average logs because I can make more from them. I'll pay less for someone elses culls. I personally have no problem whatsoever with buying another mills culls provided I can do so at a price that still enables me to make money from them. While I'd love to never have to buy low grade logs sometimes I have orders that suit them, or sometimes I have orders for a species that I can't source through our own harvesting operations and I take what I can get. So long as I can land them in my yard at a price that enables profitable milling I really don't care what they are, where they've come from, or who else has rejected them. Why should I? I'm here to make money and so is the seller, and we both of us have a right to say "no deal". Maybe next time we will deal: I might need the logs more and be prepared to pay more for the same grade, or he might be in a position of having to take less for them.
Sure you're a customer. But that only makes you one half of a completed sale, because a completed sale requires a buyer and a seller, and both have to come to the party. being a customer gives you a right to say "no deal"... but you aren't the only one with that right. As with most commodities logs are subject to the laws of supply and demand and the price fluctuates accordingly. Next week when that same logger has good logs he might not approach you at all either. Personally I've found that taking the occasional load of ordinary logs to help a guy out - provided I've paid what they're worth - has often resulted in further sales of good logs from the same guy. Loyalty works that way, and while business is still business for the most part I think that what goes around comes around.
I'm with cedarman. I work with loggers as I can, not all tracts "are cherry". I'll take low grade logs others may not, but I expect some consideration on the better stuff. We buy tree length here, usually by the ton. I had a young logger offer a load of cherry to me and we agreed on a price. When he came in with a small load of short logs it was obvious the butts had be removed and he was selling me the tops. I explained to him what that meant to me and why the butt cut was more valuable than the top. We worked though it, he learned a little more about the business and we will both benefit in the future.
Mark
Our standard was that if a tree length log was cut into two pieces, both pieces had to be on the truck.
Cedarman, I am a customer of yours, could not be happier with the product you supplied! That is the law of supply and demand. ;)
In fact I am tickled pink! 8) 8) 8) 8)
I have heard of some selling the butt logs,than trying to sell the rest to a big sawmill. They was asked not to come back again.
I use to sell logs. All logs went to one mill. Some might just try to see what you will buy. Some know what will make a log and just don't care,as long as they can get it by ya.
Locally it would be VERY unusual for all the logs from the same tree to end up at the same mill.
Reason is that the mill that's chasing the premium clear wood market can pay maybe 6X what the low grade logs are worth. Obviously they don't want the junk and small logs. Where the pulp and firewood market wont want to pay the value of the good logs when they are making low grade products. In between there is the export log market which fluctuates. and various grades of saw logs that have different values to different buyers.
So to maximise the return most of the loggers will be grading the logs on the landing, and making up truck loads to go to various destinations. As a mill, if you want better quality logs, you pay more for the upper grades, and less for the low grade. The market soon sorts itself out.
The logger has a pretty exact idea of what each buyer is looking for, so no one sends a truck load of junk to a mill that's doing premium products. They have already said they don't want that, wont be paying for it. The firewood yard down the road however will pay ~$40 a ton, so it goes there.
It's a bit like when you go to the butchery, you don't have to buy buy the whole cow. Some pay extra for the fillet steaks, others are on a budget and buy the stewing and mince. If you are making hamburgers, you don't pay for the fancy stuff. Let the 5 star restaurant pay for that.
But the mill is still the loggers customer. They are bidding on that particular grade of log. In Cedarman's case, he declined to make an offer on the load of junk logs, because he didn't particularly want or need them. If he did want them, he could also have said, "Those a pretty low grade, I can only pay X% the usual rate for stuff like that."
Good loggers in my area will sell to different markets, depending on the material they have. If you sell all your logs to one mill, that mill will turn around and sell the veneer instead of cutting it. Why shouldn't the logger sell to whichever market gives the best price?
The big mills in my area don't want veneer, and they don't want low grade. Smaller mills can use the low grade, especially if they are tied to a pallet mill or are cutting ties. Prices reflect what they're paying. The low prices keep that kind of material out of the log pile.
You want the big logs, then you have to pay the market. If you want only big logs, then you have to pay a premium.
I'd say you are neither or both. You are a business associate. Seems you need to do what's best for business.
We had a couple loggers that would show up on occasion with a load of stuff akin to what cedarman describes. I'd go out to sake it and give them a frowed brow look, and they would say "Its a clean up job" Sometimes I'd scale it, more times it went on down the road to I don't care. It makes no sense to buy something that costs you to process. You get enough of that is a decent load of logs. We knew that if a log was under 10" on the small end, it cost money to saw. It cost even more money to try and sort them out.
I learned over the years the true meaning of "clean up job" in Loggerese. It actually means "NO one else wants them"
One of the reasons I buy 2" to 4" logs (posts, saplings or whatever you want to call them) is that I have periodic markets that take large quantities at a time. Usually full truck loads. Another of the reasons I take these small logs is to give an outlet for the small scale logger whose capital investment is a chainsaw and pickup to entice them to bring all the wood to us.
With hardwood mills, the focus is on pallet logs, tie logs, grade logs or veneer logs. It is not in their interest to focus on all 4 at once.
We are a single species mill that can cater to all those that want cedar.
I don't know of another mill within 100 miles that will buy 5" and down cedar.
What I have done is give the logger an opportunity to sell more wood. They can leave all the 5" and less in the woods and maybe get a nickel more at another mill or they can sell all of it to us. Just about every cedar tree has 3 or 4" log at the top. Takes about 30 to 45 seconds to limb that extra 8'. No extra time pulling the tree to the landing. Bucking and loading time is less than a minute. A good logger will put a pencil to it and see if makes sense to spend time and effort on the extra wood.
Whether they cut the small wood or not is irrelevant. As the customer for the loggers logs, I get to set the rules for how and what I will buy. And, as all sawmillers know, the rules do change as the log piles rise and fall over the years.
Cedarman, if you can make money on these pecker poles more power to you.
I am retired and hobby only and would starve if I depended on the mill to make a living.
Because I would rather saw than market the product and it shows on my bottom line..
I saw almost exclusively Hemlock and have gotten burned on bad logs but still maintain a good relationship with my suppliers.
Caveat Emptor let the buyer beware regarding logs of any stripe.
However how do you process thee 3 and 4 inch logs for a profit?
Do you cut posts or try to saw them?
I did not mean to say I really only sold to one miil. I cut mostly white pine on my land. Not much veener came off my land. :( There was some hardwood,but not much.
If we priced for the whole tree, we expected to get the whole tree. If you creamed off the butt logs and brought us the rest for the same price as we quoted you for the whole tree, you were cheating us. Cheating your customer is not a long term successful strategy.
X2
If you hid junk in the middle of the load, we always ended up finding it.
Pete, most of the 2" and 3" are bundled and sold to people who make furniture. I double to triple my money on those. Cost is unloading, laying out, sorting and bundling. Usually have 70 2" or 50 3" to a bundle. Handle those with forklift.
4" or sometimes bundled, sometimes sawn on the scragg.
2", 3" and 4" and some 5" are run across the German peeler and sold to people making furniture. Not a steady market, but enough of one that we need several thousand poles per year. Next load of poles out to Wisconsin includes 250 4" to 5" x 10' and 100 4" x 8' along with some bigger 12' and 10' sawlogs.
Like Danny, we have seen lots of tricks, but most people that bring logs in want to do a good job and treat us fair. They will point out some logs that are not full 8', or have a little rot at the butt end. (We measure a lot of loads on trucks with small end one direction making it easy to measure while standing up). A very few will put mud on the end to cover rot, turn a log or two around so that we measure the big end, etc. , but those are the rare birds and we watch them closely each time they come in. You could say most of them treat us like customers and want to please us, so we will pay them well.
I'm still looking for a logger of whom I can be a customer :-\
I've talked to dozens of loggers in my area, all of whom either want to sell entire trailer loads (currently I have no way of unloading) or nothing at all. It seems that none are willing to allow me to bring my truck and trailer to the harvest site, even after offering cash at the time of pickup. I suppose the hassle of the "little guy" outweighs the relatively small amount of business I can offer. Perhaps it's a safety thing? I don't know. Anyway, I am able to purchase logs from another mill in my area so I'm not dead in the water.
As others have stated, I'd rather not have loads of junk dumped on me. I'd definitely not be a repeat customer if that were to happen.
-lee
When I was scaling logs, I figured out who you could trust. We had one guy who always argued about grade or scale. He was one that I never trusted. One day he brings in a log that had mud covering the one side. I didn't like the looks of it, but he convinced me that it was good. So, I gave him a top grade and scale.
As luck would have it, I happened to be in the mill the day it was sawed. A big rotten spot under the mud. I got him back. Although he argued about grade and scale, he never saw what I wrote down. I got him a little at a time until I figured he paid us back. For the most part, he brought us good logs, so we didn't want to tell him not to bring them in. He just had to be watched harder.
Buying and selling of most forest products depends on the integrity of the parties. Some foresters overscale timber, and others underscale. Buyers know how to bid on those sales. Some log buyers have a fair stick, some don't. Same goes with lumber buyers and lumber sellers. Some firewood sellers put junk in their bundles or short a cord. Buyers know who are the honest ones and who to keep an eye out for. Same goes for sellers.
Quote from: SPD748 on May 16, 2015, 08:43:48 AM
I'm still looking for a logger of whom I can be a customer :-\
I've talked to dozens of loggers in my area, all of whom either want to sell entire trailer loads (currently I have no way of unloading) or nothing at all. It seems that none are willing to allow me to bring my truck and trailer to the harvest site, even after offering cash at the time of pickup. I suppose the hassle of the "little guy" outweighs the relatively small amount of business I can offer. Perhaps it's a safety thing? I don't know. Anyway, I am able to purchase logs from another mill in my area so I'm not dead in the water.
As others have stated, I'd rather not have loads of junk dumped on me. I'd definitely not be a repeat customer if that were to happen.
-lee
Could be a liability problem, or could be they don't want to be bothered at the site. I wouldn't want someone coming onto one of my logging sites with a small trailer and tying up the operations for a few logs.
You need to have someone come in that has a self unloading truck. They can put all the logs on a pile in your yard. But, they aren't bringing just a few logs. Too much cost in transportation.
How do you handle logs once they're in your yard?
Trust is a big thing, and sometimes it can be very subjective. Case in point.
We usually had a pretty big log inventory. Up to and some times more than 1000-1500 cord in the yard at any give time. (and it is still possible to run out!) So, when you have that much log inventory, its hard to say if there is ten cord added to a pile, or taken away. Its just impossible to tell.
One of the loggers that had been around for years, the owner trusted. I did not, and one of my co-workers that also scaled wood did not. We told the owner our suspicions that he was not all that he thought he was, but we were told he had known the guy for years and he was a good guy. The owner would let this guy come in and deliver logs after hours or on weekends, use our loader to unload, and then put his scale in the door of our break room. There were times when there would be a scale there, and we could absolutely not figure out where he put the logs.
One Friday afternoon, our knuckle boom broke down. It was inoperable. Needed some parts that wouldn't get there until the next week. That following Monday we came in, and there was a scale slip in the door from "Doug" for just a tad over 10 cord of mixed hardwood. About $1000 bucks at the time. We looked around, trying to find which pile the logs were added to and could not. "Doug" came in later that day to see if he could get his log check early. The owner was not there, so he came over to us to see where Ray was and when he would be back. We asked Doug, how he unloaded that load of logs over the weekend. He said, "I used your loader like I always do".
Well guess what Doug. No you didn't.
I don't know how many times he may have done the phantom load scam over the years, or how much he may have stolen from the mill, but he was able todo it because he had garnered the trust of the guy that counted. Of course after we told the boss about it, Doug's story changed, that now there was nother truck that had been there unloading, and they threw his load off. Actually, there had been another truck there, but he never off loaded anything. Ray never went after the guy, and continued to buy from him, but we changed the policy of letting anyone deliver when we were not there.
I have a fair amount of experience on the hauling end. I think it comes down to, what are you paying for? I recieved a flyer from one mill, they said they want everything off of a job that is above pallet grade, all the saw logs and any veneer. Well, that would be fine, but they only want to pay sawlog prices for the veneer logs. I have to basically give them money so they will buy my saw logs? I also had the pallet mill complain that the sawlogs were getting sorted and sold elsewhere, they wanted everything. And at pallet prices. I understand where Cedarman is coming from, too- I would do the same thing as him, turn it away if it doesn't meet your specs. My point is, some of these outfits are advdrtising and paying for hamburger, and get upset when they don't get the steak.
About 15 years ago a logger was bringing in 3 or 4 big straight truck loads of logs a week. I checked the log tickets and there seemed to be one extra. I asked the guys who unloaded him and when. We accounted for 3 loads , but not the fourth. Doing a little detective type work if figured he put a fake ticket in the box because that one load was about 15% bigger than any other load he brought in. Well, on Friday which was payday for loggers he came in with his girlfriend to pick up his check. This guy was scraggly bearded, tatooed and shirtless as usual in summer.
AND wearing a gun on his hip as usual. If you think I was nervous about confronting him, I was. I asked several guys to come over and we had a chat. Logger denied, but when confronted with the facts, confessed he did it. It ended well. I called him later and said not to bring more logs in. About 2 years later I did buy from him again. About a year later, his body was found floating in the Ohio river. Rumors abounded about why. Never did find out what happened.
Must be he tried floating the river on one of his phantom logs. :D
:D
I think karma is a very real thing. Sometimes it takes longer than we would like to work but I think it comes 'round every time. We may not know what really affects different types of people but we all have to deal with our choices in the end.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 16, 2015, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: SPD748 on May 16, 2015, 08:43:48 AM
I'm still looking for a logger of whom I can be a customer :-\
I've talked to dozens of loggers in my area, all of whom either want to sell entire trailer loads (currently I have no way of unloading) or nothing at all. It seems that none are willing to allow me to bring my truck and trailer to the harvest site, even after offering cash at the time of pickup. I suppose the hassle of the "little guy" outweighs the relatively small amount of business I can offer. Perhaps it's a safety thing? I don't know. Anyway, I am able to purchase logs from another mill in my area so I'm not dead in the water.
As others have stated, I'd rather not have loads of junk dumped on me. I'd definitely not be a repeat customer if that were to happen.
-lee
Could be a liability problem, or could be they don't want to be bothered at the site. I wouldn't want someone coming onto one of my logging sites with a small trailer and tying up the operations for a few logs.
You need to have someone come in that has a self unloading truck. They can put all the logs on a pile in your yard. But, they aren't bringing just a few logs. Too much cost in transportation.
How do you handle logs once they're in your yard?
Ron,
I move logs around with farm tractors/pallet forks. I totally understand the issues with a small buyer tying up operations for a few dollars here and there. Self loading trucks are like hen's teeth around here. Everyone, I mean everyone in my area runs straight trailers, no loaders. I did find one gentleman who lives in South Carolina, about 30 minutes from me. He has a tandem truck with a loader and said he can haul 2-3 mbf. Problem is, he really doesn't like the North Carolina Highway Patrol. In fact, when I got around to telling him that I'd like the logs delivered to NC, he loudly explained his disdain for the NCSHP then hung up on me :D
I'll keep searching. Perhaps one day I'll find the mythical self loader.
-lee
Lee
In my area I find the small loggers will sell me logs and load my trailer . But at the end of the job when there's not a full load left for the truck to haul to the mill or when the roads are posted and they need the cash .
They also tell me the mills don't like 8 or 10 ft logs so I buy them .
Jim /Bruno