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Basic procedure & Basic Procedure "Too"

Started by Hale87, April 26, 2011, 02:47:40 PM

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Hale87

In the limited amount of time I've had my used 30" Hudson, I've never done anything but cut boards. Well, the first time I took the mill for a ride to a friends house, of course a neighbor stops buy and ask if I would cut for him. Go figure. I told him I wasn't experienced enough, but would give it a shot if he was patient and understood I was green. He's got maybe 8 nice red oak, and probably 2 whites, plus maybe 15 white pine. He says he wants a lot of 2x8s cut out of the oak for repairing the barn. So I'm wondering what a basic procedure would be for cutting framing so you have the least amount of waste? My concerns are ending up with too many thin boards. (cutting cants that don't multiply out for me) Here's a picture of the two scales on my mill. Both are wm. I believe the one is for framing and lucky for me,,,, the other one says grade hardwoods. So if you would,,,, could you tell me your basic procedure for cutting framing







The second photo needs flipped up clockwise and I don't know how to do it with this system. The hardwood scale is upside down in that photo.
Thanks...
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

ladylake


It's going to depend on the size of your logs, say you want 2 x8 lumber and you get the cant squared up at 16" you can cut it in half flip it up and make 2 -   2 x 8 board at the same time but 90% of the time when you saw a cant in half it will bow a little.  You could saw the cant a little over sized and the skim cut it straight or your customer might not mind if it's bowed a little. If you start with a 16" or so log take some lumber off each side at the thickness you want untill you get down to 8" then turn up saw a few boards off one side, turn and saw from the other side. Most times the last board off will like to get fat ends due to stress so it's good to leave it a little oversized, turn it over and straighten it out. That wouldn't matter to much for framing lumber but if going to get planed it's a good idea.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Tom

If he is only going to use the wood for framing and sheeting on a barn, you will probably get the most lumber (and it'll be easier on you for the math) to use the true inch scale.  That will give you a board, or 2x8, that is only the thickness of your band's kerf shy of the true measurement and it will be easier on him because the nails and fittings will mostly all fit.

When I first started, I dreamed all night long on sawing logs and the math it would take to come out even on the bottom.  Stuff like that is commendable, but you find that it isn't that important to know when you first start out, it's only important to provide a good product where they are all the same.

Give yourself time to learn. There is a lot more to learn than someone who doesn't do it will guess.   Draw out a circle and draw lines as if you are sawing it.   Create some cant shapes in you head as you go and question how you ended up where you did. 

The scales that are bigger than a true inch are for the sawyer who has a customer who needs commercial rough lumber that he can massage into the standard sizes of lumber marketing and make his finished product fit the sizes on his cabinet plans.  You aren't in that ball park.  Still, you might be one day and it behooves you to learn "why".

Don't get too anal about barn lumber.  Your job is to make it all the same, make it the same from end to end and make it as straight as you can.  Consider the faults in the log when you do this.  Checks and splits or knots in the log will end up in the lumber.  A crack might be acceptable (or not) in a board but would be "death" in a 2x8 that was to be depended upon for strength.

Most structural timbers are cut as "flat-sawed" because they are carrying weight on their edge.  You try to cut most flooring and sheeting lumber as "vertical grain", but it isn't necessary for it all (or even any) to be that way.

Minimize the number of times you have to turn the log/cant to get a cant that you can then cut "through and through".

There are a lot of posts in the forum that show  how to create a cant.  There are also some pretty good suggestions for creating cants in stressed, bowed or cracked logs that have been edited from the forum and put in the Knowledge base.

Don't worry too much about it, just have fun.  If you don't get in a hurry, things will turn out just fine.  :)

ladylake

 That's right , if it's barn lumber don't get to anal about it. I was sawing some 18'  logs yeaterday that the customer was using for barn lumber that had quite a bit off stress.  I told him I could saw oversized and straighten it out or just saw with the ends being a bit thin, he went for the bit thin and quick sawing.  The job befor that was a timber framer where we sawed oversized and straightened them out.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Chuck White

Just don't get too picky about it!

It is good when the customer can be there while you saw the logs!

I had a "for instance" just last weekend.  I was sawing Hemlock and that particular log had lots of stress,
it was 13 feet long and when I was squaring the cant, I was about half way through the log when I noticed
movement.  I pointed out to him, the sideways movement of the flitch coming off the cant.  In 6 feet,
the sideways movement was around 2 inches.  I finished the cut, then squared it up afterwards!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Peter Drouin

tom has it right go with the inch thing , that way right or wrong the wood will be all the same size. 8) 8) 8)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Hale87

Thanks for all the replies.
Most of the logs are in the 16-20 inch range,, I would guess.
I guess I'll cut the 2x8s first out of the cant then the remainder/leftovers (anything less than an inch) into boards?

Thanks.....
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

Tom

Whoa!   Don't cut the cant first and then try to cut the "slabs".

Picture the cant you want in the log.  You can even draw on the end of the log if it will help.  then cut 2x 8's or 1x (?)'s from the outside until you arrive at a cant that you can then cut through and through.  You are always cutting boards or timbers and it is called sawing to a target.  The target is the cant but you are creating stuff while you get there.   

It would be a real guess'n b'God situation to cut the cant out, make your 2x's and then come back to see what you can find in the slab pile.  Cut these outside (Jacket) boards and lay them aside to be edged later, after you finish the log.

Dan_Shade

Do a search and read all of Toms posts in the sawmills and milling section  :-)

Another concern about trying to cut boards from the slab pile is that the tension may make it very difficult to get decent boards from a slab, let alone the slabs are hard to clamp in place.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Hale87

Quote from: Tom on April 26, 2011, 06:55:06 PM
Whoa!   Don't cut the cant first and then try to cut the "slabs".
I guess I didn't explain myself very well.
Considering a 2x8 is a fairly large board,,,,, I'm trying to figure out how to best utilize the material in the log that wouldn't meet that dimension. Point is everything isn't going to work out to be in multiples of 2s or 8s.
Example,,, you have a can't that's 10.5 inches x 9.5.
Would you cut a 1 inch board first, then the 2 inch material. Or the opposite and then what do you do with the 1/4 inch leftover?
Question is,,, can you avoid having that waste?
Are you telling me to cut the 2x8s the whole way in and worry about the "waste" (boards that are not 2x8s) at the end?
Big question is ,,,,,, what do you guys do to avoid tossing a 1/4 inch or maybe a 1/2 inch board in the slab pile??
Thanks...
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

Tom

Well, I would consider a 1/4 inch board as a trim board and it would either be given to the log owner or thrown in the waste pile.  (if it were pretty, I might take it home myself) :)

Work Backwards.

Level the pith of the log to the bed.

Mentally draw a square or rectangle in the end of the log.  that is going to be the cant. Put the band on the upper most border of that "target" and count backwards as you raise the saw. If the slice will be wide enough, you might figure a 2x8. If not, you might figure a 1x.  When you get to the top, cut the slab and then cut the boards you figured, stopping at the top of the rectangle you drew (your target).

Do the same each time you turn the log. 

If you make this cut with the heart check being vertical, then you are creating the width of the cant.  Get to where there is about 4 inches from the center of the log to the edge you just created and then turn the log 180 degrees. 

Do the same to that side of the log until you get to four inches from the center.  You should then have a two-sided cant that is eight inches wide.  The heart check will run across the 8"s.

Now turn the cant up on edge and get it on square with the squaring dogs (the backstop, the fence, the "dogs") and clamp it.  (The heart check will be horizontal) Level the pith up with the bed.  Take a slab and boards off until you get to where the edge of the board is clean of bark or at least minimal. 

Turn the cant 180 degrees.  (the heart check will still be horizontal)

Now what you will have is a three sided cant that is eight inches wide and with the round portion on the top. The flat bottom will be resting on the mill bunks.  The height of this cant will be in multiples of whatever you want it to be and might be 15 inches if your log was 22 inches to begin with. 

Using your true scale, cut a 1 1/2 " slab and a one inch board.   That will leave you with  a twelve and a half inch tall cant.   What the heck, you say.  You can cut the 2"x8"s by dropping on 1/2 inch marks on your scale until you want to make the trim cut.

Well the middle of that cant is going to be in pretty rotten shape because of the heart check.  It would be a good place to take that trim cut.

Theoretically, this 12-1/2" tall, 8" wide cant will produce (6) 2x8's with the 1/2 trim board taking out the garbage in the middle.  In reality, the garbage in the middle might require a bit more to clear it up. This gives you the option of cutting a 1/2" board and (2) 1x8's, or (1) 1"x1-1/2"x8" that he might use for a 2x8 if it's clear enough and a  1"x8".  Or you might want to cut two quarter-sawed 5/4 boards out of the center to see if you can produce some short boards for cabinet work.   All of these options will get you back on the 2" drops for making the 2"x8"s.    These trim boards can be taken most anywhere if you plan ahead.  I always liked to wait as long as I could so that I had a means of getting rid of miscuts.

Waiting until the last board works good if the pith is in good shape or your decide to just get a couple of one by's out of the center.  The reason is that the cant will have stress and will not be lying flat on the bed by the time you get on the other side of the pith.  At some point, it might be the last board, you will want to turn the cant 180 and reclamp it to get the board/cant flat on the deck again.  If it is the last board, then the swoop will be on the top and a 1/2 trim cut might cut it all off, leaving a good 1" or 2" bottom board. (that is the equivalent to what the circle millers call a "Dog Board".

So, you see, that is the art of sawmilling.  You have to get the science shoved behind.  You are working with an object that is not really round and is not ever clear, that has a mind of its own, and you are trying to make squares and rectangles out of it.

It's a difficult thing to explain on a written piece of paper because there are so many options available to a sawyer and no sawyer sees the log the same way.

You will learn.  It just takes time.  It helps to watch another sawyer and try to figure out why he does what he does, but lacking that, you will still figure it out.  I'm willing to keep typing as long as it takes, but you see, I don't know it all either.   You will even create some idiosyncrasies as you go that will be your signature.  That won't make you right or wrong, just different. :)

Do you see why sawyers dream of sawing in their sleep? :D

Hale87

I appreciate you taking the time to write that long winded explanation, and that's exactly what I was looking for. I'm just a little intimidated by starting out cutting framing with such a large dimension. I've worked with wood my entire life plus I'm good with math, but that doesn't mean anything if you don't have a clue where to start? Anyone can cut a square, but you and your experience could cut many more of the same dimension from the same amount of wood. Then on top of that it would be better quality wood. I'm just trying not to completely screw up this guys lumber. Turn what's maybe 5-600 board feet of oak into a zillion 1x4s! LOL

Thanks alot, now I just have to read your post 10 more times until most of it sinks in.
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

paul case

tom,
i appreciate your explanation, but i cant quite keep up with some of the extra choices you give. so heres my try.

12'' log on the mill with not too much taper( both ends about the same size). cutting into 2x6's.
first face will expose the boards  edges. i would slab cut at 10 5/8'' and second cut at 9'' would be a board needing edged .
turn 90 deg. slab cut at about 10 5/8''. this exposes the face of the bottom board of the cant.
turn 90 deg. slab cut at 7 5/8'' and  second cut is cant cut at 6'' producing a board needing edged and a 3 sided 6'' wide cant.
turn the last 90 deg. and cut at 7 1/2'' for a slab and at 6 1/2'' for a 1x6 then ,4 7/8'', 3 1/4'', 1 5/8. each producing a 2x6.
i heard a sawyer say some years ago that he wasnt happy with the face he exposed with the first cut. if those first cuts  were to leave too much bark on the cant for a 6'' wide board then i would cut a little deeper and make a 1x out of the edgings.

i know the first thing you guys in the know are going to say is that a 2x6 is only 5.5'' sorry i didnt do this that way but you get the point.

if my mill didnt have the scale to do 1 5/8'' cutting i would figure it once and write it on the mill right next to the scale . it saves a lot of time to have those numbers wrote down.

after a little more time a sawyer finds those little things to read in a log like end check and heart rot and sweep or crook and how to saw the most useable lumber from those logs. get the basics down and then conquer the challenges.

i like cutting framing lumber and full 2'' even better for trailer flooring. goes faster than 1'' stuff and selling or getting paid for sawing it adds up a little faster.

btw, i have never seen a mill with a centimeter scale on it. not much use for that in my neck of the woods. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Dan_Shade

I swiped this from an old post I made a few years back: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,15483.0.html

here's how I'd cut 2x6s and 2x4s out of an 11" diameter log:













Also, as Tom said above, be sure to put the heart check so that it is contained in the middle board, i.e. so that the split is parallel with the bed of the saw for the first cut.


I also now tend to flip the log 180 for my second set of cuts rather than 90, it seems to help me reduce edging boards and I think it helps me keep the cants square.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

ladylake


Dan, nice pics, exactly how I do it including flipping 180. With 180 there is less edging on some logs and also when you cut the third side there's less wood hanging on the right side(for me) making it easyier to roll and clamp.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

sdunston

Great post here,
Quote from: Tom on April 26, 2011, 11:03:32 PM
Well, I would consider a 1/4 inch board as a trim board and it would either be given to the log owner or thrown in the waste pile.  (if it were pretty, I might take it home myself

The Antique dealer's will take all the 1/4 inch stuff you can spare, They use it to repair the back side of picture frames and old dressers
Sam
WM LT28, American fordge 18x8 planer,Orange and white chainsaws, NH TC33, IHT6 dozer, IH-H tractor and alot of other stuff that keeps me agravated trying to keep running

ely

great post tom, dan nailed the way i generally do it.

Hale87

With your help I went and did a saw job the last couplle days.
Of course I started the day off with the engine not running right. Screwed up and left it uncovered a couple of nights and that wasn't good. Dumped the water out of the bowl twice. Not sure how it got in there.

When I showed up, the first thing the guy said to me was,,,, "You gottat push that thing back and forth?"
His son knew that I didn't have a fancy mill goin in, along with me tellin them I had never worked for anyone before.
Turned out this guy was passive as heck. Good thing too, between my learnin curve and the engine sputtin around. Lunch come around and the insisted I come in and eat with the. My lab Sadie came along in. The wife sat there the entire time feeding her lunch meat.
Stressful as heck but we got through it. Guy kept tellin me to slow up and take a break. I felt bad about the production, so I dang near never looked up.
Hate to say what the average was,,,, I'm guessing a little over a 100 feet an hour. I know how hard I pushed myself for that rate,,, so that's tough, but it is what it is.
Only hit 2 nails and a bullet.
Here's a few pics......













That board lying in the mud was a clear piece of redoak. He said "Throw it down there and walk on it, we got 350 more acres iffin we need another board."

Thansk for your help.....
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

Tom

Way to go.  It looks to me like you did just fine.  If you made your customer think that he might like to have a sawmill, you did a good job.

It's great to have customer like that, isn't it?   You'll find that most of them are that way.  They are as excited about getting their log cut as you are intimidated about putting it on the mill.  Some of the best meals I've ever eaten came from the kitchens of the customers.  Most of them won't  have it any other way than that you come inside and eat.  It did a terrible thing to my V-shaped, ultra-in-shape, young body.  They ruined it.  (I'm kidding of course.)  That  young shape is still in there...... somewhere.  :D

Getting out and sawing like that is the best thing in the world for learning how to saw. You can learn in couple of hours what it would take months to learn from a book.  If you learn it all from a book, you still have to do it to know it.

Are you looking forward to another experience like that?  :)


paul case

good job hale. lumber looks good in the pics and if the customer is happy you did a good job.

i dont htink 100 bd ft per hour is anything to sneeze at.

i heard  a lot of mill mfgers making claims of 1000 bd ft on a manual mill when i was looking to buy. after i got my mill i thought yeah right! maybe you could cut 1000 ft of ties or 2x12's in a day on a manual mill. well today i spent 8 1/2 hours sawing and kept track. here is the list
44-2x6-8'
10-2x8-8'
14-1x10-10'
16-1x8-10'
8-1x6-10'
9-1x10-9'
17-1x6-9'
16-1x6-8'

i fugured it out to be 927ft. and nothing bigger than a 2x8. i am too tired to be very impressed.

i think the key to doing this has been organization and repetition.

so hale how did you saw that lumber today?  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

LeeB

Boards look pretty good to me. So, what was all the worry about?  :D
1000bf/day ain't bad and on a manual mill is pretty good. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Magicman

It looked like that saw job was a great confidence builder.  It also looked like you did a very good job.  Congratulations !!!
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Hale87

Thanks guys.
Considering it was the first time,,, I was stressed.
Just need to remember that the mill is what it is.

Next week sometime we'll start on about 12-1500' of white pine.
I'll be dang glad to see a softwood....
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

WDH

1000 BF on a manual mill is very good!  I have done it one my LT15 a number of times, but only with a helper.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

Ignore the numbers and have fun. Don't worry about the BF. Just have fun, Some days will be great,some days will be real bad,but just have fun. Don't be like my FIL and say "I got that done in 2 hours." And have it look like it took 2 hours too.  :o Do a good job,even it it takes another hour to do it. One bad job will out weight 10 good jobs by word of mouth. Don't worry about what the sales brochures says,they always add on a few hundred bf to make it sound good. Just have fun  ;D.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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