NOT REAL HAPPY!

[Kirk_Allen]

I was over in our capital city yesterday and stopped in the DNR office to pick up some information on Timber purchasing. 

I believe what the state of Illinois is doing is a crime when it comes to the Timber tax and all the regulations behind it.

Timber is property.  If I sell my car, I am NOT required to pay a tax to the state.  If I sell my house, I am NOT required to pay a tax.  Why in the Sam heck am I required to pay a tax for selling my tree?

It also reads " Every timber grower who utilizes timber produced on land he owns or operates for sawing into lumber, for processing, or fo resale, except a person who occasionally uses his own timber for sawing or processing for his own use and not for resale, shall report periodically, as required by regulation of the Deparmtnet, the quantity of timber produced and utlized by the owner or operator during the reporting period.  Such tibmer grower shall pay to the department, when the periodic report is submitted, an amounth of equal to 4% of the gross value of the timber utilized during the period.  THE VALUE OF SUCH TIMBER SHALL BE DETERMINED PURSUANT TO THE RULE OF THE DEPARTMENT.  Such rules shall include a voluntary arbitration program for use in situations in which a dispute arises as the the gross value of the timber. 

I'm sorry but this is a license for the state of Illinois to steel money from others property.  If someone steels a tree they treat it as a crime of theft of REAL PROPERTY. Why do we permit out state to put a special tax on our REAL PROPERTY. 

I guess the real kicker on this issue is when I asked the guy at the DNR office about it he called it: "The Governers Wifes Fund".  It was clear he was not in agreement and pointed out that even though those funds go into the Illinois Forestry Development Fund, it appears the Gov. and his Wife have found ways to use it for parks and stuff in the chicago area. 

OK, I THINK I am done with my rant but after reading this packet of info today lets just say I am PITHED off real bad at our state system. 

[sprucebunny]

New Hampshire has a timber tax also. I didn't think all that badly of it because very nice real estate tax reductions are given to those who own more than 10 acres ....and apply. A person can cut 20 cords of thier own wood without paying tax. But if I wasn't enjoying the tax reduction , I would be piffed.
Pretty soon, they will be taxing us for having streams :
We are taxed for real estate transactions. And we pay plenty of real estate tax every year and registering your car is another tax that is deductible on your federal form.

All these taxes make me angry but you gots to pick your battles ;)

[Jeff]

http://timbertax.org/

Anyone harvesting Timber needs to educate yourself.  One needs to know how to reduce the tax burdon. Hiring a Forester to do an management plan and inventory on your woodland is a good way to start.

[Sawyerfortyish]

New Hampshire live free or die  ??? ???  ???what happened? Is the state being run by out of staters.

[Frank_Pender]

We are allowed to harvest up to 25,000 log scale feet a year, if you are classified with a small woodlot option and having at least 10 acres.  The ten acres do not have to be contigeous to qualifiy.  After the 25 gs of of timber you being to pay a tax of $1.95 per thousand.   The dollars go into a statewide fire insurance fund and into funding for foresters to assist woodlot owners.  The latter is one that often sets in the craw of some, as the big boys seem to garner most of their time. 

I agree with you Kirk, that it is a tax without representation.  Was there not some sort of tea party dealing with that idea?  Some call it a taking of personal plroperty.  If I were to do that with someones timber, I would have to have visitors sign in at some office before they could come in and see me.

[David_c]

Sprucebunny dont forget the view tax here in NH if you have view of say monandnoc or some other mountain.

[MemphisLogger]

Kirk,

You think you gat it bad . . .

All the trees I saw come from arborists and would go to the dump otherwise. I save the taxpayer money by diverting that material and guess what?

The stinkin' revenuers are in the process of "determining" whether I need to pay severence on my logs!

Go figure  ???
 

[Ron Wenrich]

We have no taxes on timber in PA.  But, timber proceeds are considered income, so you need to pay income tax.

From my understanding of the law, timber is considered real estate until severed, then it becomes personal property.  Cut over the line, and you are taking real estate.  We do have a real estate transfer tax, but I don't know of anyone paying that for timber.

A couple of problems arise from the real estate angle.  If a forester is selling timber, does he need a real estate license ( and a broker)?   How do they really appaise forest land?  (Hint: they don' t have a clue). 

My dealings with government lies with the less the know, the happier I am.  I did a job a number of years ago which crossed a creek.  I was supposed to notify the Fish Commission.  Sounded like a bunch of BS, so we stoned both approaches to the creek, and drove trucks across it.  We had no complaints, since it was done with some common sense and we had no increase in turbidity.  You can't legislate common sense. 

If I had told them what I was doing, then I would have had a bunch of paper work and some inspector up my wazoo making sure I was doing something that was OK. 

I'm not advocating non-compliance, but sometimes the less government knows, the better things run.

[woodmills1]

The NH timber tax is assessed at 10% of fair market value, with that value being assigned by the state to each kind of tree on a yearly basis.  It is one of the many ways the state raises money and has thus far escaped an income tax.  We also, till recently, had one of the more agressive inheritance taxes at 18% from dollar one for all who were not direct relatives, although I think it has either been repealed or is currently in front of the legislature.

[Kirk_Allen]

The kicker on this one is if I sell my lumber I make a profit and have to pay tax.......................on lumbr that already was taxed  >:(

I wouldnt mind if it wasnt one of the double whammy taxes but it seems we keep getting hit for the same thing over and over. 

Time to move back to Alaska. In the South East Alaska area a resident is ENTITLED to 10,000 bf of timber for personal use every year!  No income Tax AND THEY PAY YOU TO LIVE THERE!  Thank God there is one state that got it right when it comes to recognizing the term, WE THE PEOPLE! 

[oakiemac]

Kirk, I feel your pain even though here in Michigan we are not required-as far as I know-to pay a tax on timber. Unless you sell it then it is income tax time.

Our local, state and especially the fedral goverment has run completely out of control. I am not sure if this Frankenstiens monster can even be stoped now that it has grown so big.

[Ron Scott]

A timberland owner needs to know the "federal" tax system and their individual "state" tax system for their best advantages.

A new timberland owner should have their timber appraised to determine their "timber basis" to establish a "depletion account" for tax puposes. It may provide  you some income tax advantage.  :P

[Kirk_Allen]

I understand the Basis evaluation process and agree there are some advantages but I guess my beef is with where they apply this tax and the fact that it is ON TOP OF the income tax you get hit with.

I have a person in town that wants a row of hedge taken out.  30+ inchers!  Its the back of his property and he is the last house in town.  Why should 4% of what I pay for those trees go to the state and then he is requried to pay income tax on top of what he already paid. 

He could sell his sod - no tax, his dirt - no tax, his vegtables -no tax, but boy, let a tree grow and sell that, well heck, the state has to put there fingers on that one.

Its just not right! 

I am going to call them Monday and ask how they determine the base value of Osage, since its a scrap tree and not on the DNR list of marketable hardwoods MAYBE that species doesnt get hit with the tax?  Doubtful, but if they dont have it on the list then how could they determine the value? 

[HORSELOGGER]

Kirk, now you know why I pm'ed that wise crack about the timber tax revenue going to a fund to pay for hair care products for Gov Blago >:( If you have a forestry association in your part of the state , you can get more pitthed at the meetings. I have given up on ours, as the most commonly discussed topics seem to be who has what grant money and govt program money available for who.....It goes both ways. Govt in our pockets, and people right back at em >:( ..... Tree services do not have to buy a license here, yet many of them take the logs that they are paid to remove and sell the saw logs and firewood. They shoild be paying 4% according to the letter of the law, yet it is not enforced. So... take down the hedge row as a service, and if the owner happens to be a little short this week,... maybe he can pay you in " osage bucks"

[Ron Scott]

A good point to follow if the species is not on their commercial species list. How did the timberland owners let that tax slip by them for allowed assessment?? :-[

[woodmills1]

As far as double taxing, you really don't get an income tax on the paid timber tax as you can deduct the timber tax as a business expense on your
1040 sched C.

I will add that if you are buying forest lands and intend to cut timber from it, then by all means establish a timber depletion account using federal tax forn T (timber).  I have done this and it is not as daunting as it will seem at first.  You do need good records and a way to establish the value of the timber as well as periodic updates for growth or loss.

and Last check to see if your state has an alternative property tax peogram for forest lands.  Here in NH it is called current use assessment and it is a good deal if you are not considering selling land for development purpose.

[SwampDonkey]

No tax here on primary forest products, except income tax and value added taxes such as HST, or PST and GST. I can buy firewood tax free from the producer. Not sure if that is legal or not, but I don't know of a sole that pays tax on firewood. I know sawmills don't pay tax on the logs they buy from a woodlot owner. I believe there is tax on wood trucking though, if I'm not mistaken.

[Buzz-sawyer]

kIRK I HAVE ALL THE PERTINENT STATUTES IN MY POSESION..THEY COVER all TIMBER, AND COVER TRADES AS WELL.......bOTTOM LINE IS THEY MAKE you ENFORCE A TAX ON PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SELL YOU SOMETHING.
As far as double taxation....how about taxation to the 10nth power.......Taxed when you buy the land, (with money you were taxed on) then taxed annually for the priveldge of being allowed to occupy it till the next billing cycle. Then taxed when you choose to gain income from that land...........That is only state taxes!!!!   >:(

EDIT: Get the impression I feel over taxed :D :D :D

[Buzz-sawyer]

Kirk just emailed this to you ...you will love the read.....NOT :D :D :D

Illinois Compiled Statutes
Professions and Occupations
Timber Buyers Licensing Act
225 ILCS 735/



    "Buying timber" means to buy, barter, cut on  shares,  or  offer  to
buy,  barter,  cut  on  shares,  or  take  possession of timber, with or
without the consent of the timber grower.

Sec. 9.  The Department may inspect the premises used by any  timber
buyer  in  the conduct of his or her business at any reasonable time and
the books, accounts, records and papers of every such timber buyer shall
at all times during business hours  be  subject  to  inspection  by  the
Department.   Any  person  licensed as a timber buyer as defined in this
Act, or any person who has purchased, bartered, or attempted to purchase
or barter timber, or  any  person  having  possession  or  who  has  had
possession  of  timber  as  defined  in  this  Act  shall prima facie be
considered a timber buyer. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

  "with or without the consent of the timber grower."  ????????????????????

[SwampDonkey]

I was wondering that to Fla_D. But, I guess when the guy gets caught he has to surrender the tax, regardless if the victom gets his re-embursement. Then again, from the state auditor's perspective,  there is really no way of tracking where that wood came from, so if he's audited he has to pay his taxes. :D :

[Buzz-sawyer]

They want to be able to prosecute thieves under these statutes.......
Thats the trouble....when they write laws..they try to cover EVERY concievable contigency...........

, thereby making everyone a criminal if they CHOOSE to follow the letter ..................

of any of the copious number of laws they continue to stack up........... If it can be done there is a law..and

chances are youve broken some this week w/o knowing it

[Fla._Deadheader]

Shoulda realized that the Politicians operate that way, soooo, they write laws that way. They are the ones that operate with or without the owners permission   : : >:(

  I TRY to break at least one law every day. Makes me sleep better.  8) ;D ;) ;)

[Kirk_Allen]

"or  any  person  having  possession  or  who  has  had
possession  of  timber  as  defined  in  this  Act  shall prima facie be
considered a timber buyer.  "

"HAD POSSESSION" and they think they can come on my property and inspect my books?  NOT, REAL HARDLY! 

Thought the tea party was a battle, come to my place the day they try this. 

I picked up a copy of what you sent me buzz. It has taken me some time to read it because I get so stinking mad. 

I am half tempted to cut the rest of what i have and go back to my woodworking and say the heck with milling in this state.  I know that may be a knee jerk reaction but this is just wrong.

Harold,
When we going to Costa Rica. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

Got a contract on the house last week, Kirk. Had a 3 day yard sale that just ended 2 hours ago. I'm just waitin for the closing.

  What's holding YOU up ???  ;D ;D :D :D

[DouginUtah]

Kirk,

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
-Thomas Jefferson

Go get 'em.

-Doug

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well Kirk
Before ya get the passport out........
the rest of the story is these laws are not enforced, by and large..to the letter. the only guys who get reamed, generally are the deadbeats who people complain about or guys hauling a load w/o proper papers.
Most enforcement agents dont know all the rules..I just goota know before I get involved...........

Did you under our state law it is illegal to transport wood or brush from another location .and burn it on your private property,
or to burn trash in a barrel???
Try the I.E.P.A They go and do as they please w/o warrants or probable cause........

As horselogger said,  tree service is utterly exempt(from enforcement standpoint)
Try reading the fish and wildlife code some time.....If want to see some rules!!!!
It is illegal to hunt raccoons in season on private property if you arwe not in the company of some form of dog.......chihuawa? :D :D :D

[Kirk_Allen]

What is sad about the coon hunting thing is just last year I hunted with one of the DNR game wardens.  We hunted coons, at night, with flashlights, 22's and NO DOG!   ;D

[Frank_Pender]

Well, Kirk, you do not even need a flashlight to hunt coons around here.  The wife has been feeding them on the back porch for the last two weeks.   She has even been waiting up until this momma coon arrives just at late dusk.   she then crawls on the kitchen floor, over to the sliding glass door to take to the momma and three babies.  I do not know if Alice has named the babies as yet, but I suspect it will be sooner than later.  Alice is even leaving the porch light one and has put a special spot up so as to get better pictures.   They only let you live with them, right? :(

The DANG coons are eating better than me.   

[beenthere]

Frank
What is your wife taking to the coons after she crawls over to the door?

[crtreedude]

Kirk,

We have tax on lumber here - but it is pretty small - small enough that I don't remember what it is. There are rules that have to be followed. You must have a permit to cut most trees. This is to try to prevent poaching of trees. As wood is hauled from place to place, you must have an origin permit too. However, it isn't expensive.

The fees pretty much cover the paperwork. The rules however are probably stricter on harvesting trees here than in the USA since the number one export of Costa Rica is tourism. No trees, no tourist.

If you are harvesting trees on your own land to build a house or something - you don't need a permit. There are some species that you are not supposed to cut but for the average person it isn't a problem since they are nearly extinct. If the tree is dead or dying, no problem at all.

The Ticos react rather strongly to new taxes. Anytime some lamebrain politician comes up with a way to tax them more, they strike and pretty much shutdown the country. Any time the politicians dream up a way to tax, they first have to consider that the people won't want for the polls to complain - they will do it even before it becomes law.

The current mantra of the common folk is this: Become more efficient and remove all graft - then talk to us about raising taxes. Prove that you are good stewards of the taxes you collect and we might consider an increase - until then - no!

[Cedarman]

Can you point me in the direction where I can read the whole Illinois law.  Indiana is looking at Illinois tax with envy.  They may try something here. I am very interested in what they can do with the money and how it is to be spent.

[Frank_Pender]

Beenthere, she is taking her voice and camera.  She will lay there and talk to them.  I have asked her if they talk back and all I get is, "Stow it!"   I checked the dish at daylight this morning and ever littlle kibble and bit is gone.   She is even leaving a dish so that the coon can wash its hands and it does wash is hands while eating.

[J_T]

My uncle feeds a bunch of coons every night , he can walk wright out with them . 8) A few scratch on the door them he gives spice cake one or two even come in . He says if a storm is comming they will come early. He even powders some for flees 8) Said they will get use to you . I think some of them live in the top of his shop :D :D

[sawguy21]

Ron Wenrich, don't even try that bridge thing here :D Streams a.k.a. "riparian management areas" are considered holy ground. The bureaucracy involved in building a bridge, even on private property, is mind boggling. A skidder operator crossed one more time than was allowed on the timber cutting licence at a designated crossing. The provincial inspector checked for tracks. He was fined along with the sub, the main contractor, and the mill.

[Ernie]

I wish all these posts on taxes were in a different area of the forum, I'd hate our politicans to read this stuff and get ideas :(  things aren't too bad down here YET.