How about explaining

[Fla._Deadheader]

How wood can be down graded from a kiln? Don'T know exactly how to phrase this question.
  When you saw for grade, what is it exactly that you are looking for??  When you dry it, you "lose" grade?? Explain that a little, without getting TOO technical??

  I realize that "grading" lumber CAN be difficult. I am only trying to understand what it is that makes different grades and what it takes to spoil grades??

[biziedizie]

I used to work in a re-man plant and one of my jobs was to grade lumber (hated it!). It kinda comes down to knots like spike knots and knots that will chex and what the wood will turn out to be after it has dried. The grain and things like that come into play and so on, but like I said I hated grading lumber but I wish I remembered more. My dads friend who is a sawyer came by after work and gave me some pointers that helped my memory and I realized that it's not up to the guy grading the lumber that makes good wood it's up to the guy cutting it.

  Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

That's how I see it, Steve. Ya can't make good boards AFTER ya cut 'em.

[Ron Wenrich]

It depends if you're talking about hardwoods or softwoods.  I don't know too much about softwood grading, but I think it has a lot to do with knot size and things that effect it structurally.

For hardwoods, you are looking to find cuttings in a board that is free from defect.   The obvious defects are wane, worm holes, and knots.  But the ones that can kill you are checks.

If it isn't dried right, you can get checks that will kill those clear cuttings.  Shake, bow, twist and a few others can develop.  If you can't plane it out, its a defect.  You can also get case hardening, honeycombing and a few other defects I've heard about, but don't know much about.

[inspectorwoody]

Hope the following can give you all a little better understanding. The following information comes from the NHLA Rule Book and from my brain since they crammed it all in there in 14 short weeks!!!  :D

The following is information for standard inspection of each grade.

FAS- Minimum size board is 6x8 and your minimum size cuttings are 4x5 or 3x7 Your basic yield is your suface measure or SMx10. To determine the number of cuts you are allowed you divide your SM/4 with 4 max number of cuttings. To take an extra cutting you need a 6-15' SM Your special yield for FAS is the 97% Rule. Pcs 6" and wider with a 6-12' SM 2 cuts full width any length to yield SMx11.64.

F1F- Everything from FAS to apply...Special Yield...97% Rule on Better Face.

Select - Minimum board size is 4x6. Everything from FAS to apply...Special Yield...97% Rule on BTR Face...2-3' SM to be 100% Clear or yield 11/12 clear face in one cutting (SMx11)

1COM - Your minimum board size is 3x4 and your minimum size cuttings are a 4x2 or a 3x3. Basic Yield is SMx8. To determine the number of cuttings you are allowed you take your SM + 1 divided by 3 with five maximum cuttings allowed. You need a 3-10' SM to take an extra cut and your extra yield is SMx9. Special Yield is 1'SM to be 100% Clear and 2' SM is SMx9.

2A/2B - Your minimum size board is 3x4 and your minimum size cutting is a 3x2. Basic Yield is SMx6. To determine the number of cuttings you are allowed you divide your SM by 2 with 7 maximum cuttings allowed. You will need a 2-7' SM to take an extra cutting and your extra yield is SMx8. Special Yields are 1' SM, SMx8 2A com clear face cuttings...2b com sound cuttings.

3A - Your minimum size board is a 3x4 and your minimum size cutting is a 3x2. Basic yield is SMx4. Unlimited number of cuts. Special Yield is 2a com on btr face reverse side sound will also quailify for a 3a com

3b - Your minimum size board is a 3x4 and your minimum size cutting is not less than 1.5" wide to contain 36 sq inches. Unlimited sound cuttings.

The following are your FAS limits!
Pith - SM in inches
Wane 1/2 the length
Knot 1/3 SM
Warp Entire board must be flat enough to Suface two sides to Standard Sufaced Thickness
Splits - not to exceed 2xSM or 12" which ever is greater Splits shall not diverge 1" in 12"
First lineal foot rule - applies to both ends of the board, to contain not over 25% unsound wood

Wane in F1F - FAS limitation applies to better face. On your 1com side: 1/3 the width or half the length Widest wane added together Length can be on both edges

Wane in Selects

Pcs 6" and wider - FAS limitations applies to better face. 1com side 1/3 the width 1/2 the length

Pcs 4 and 5" wide - 1/3 the width and 1/2 the length applies to both faces

That is all the information found in the NHLA rule books standard inspection chart. Lots to know. There are some species that have exceptions to the rules etc. also. I would highly recommend anyone wanting to know more etc to contact the NHLA and order a rule book. They are $7.00 for non-members. www.natlhardwood.org/

Hope this gives you guys a start!! Please contact me with any more questions.

[inspectorwoody]

Sorry guys....forgot the part about grading after drying!! What I explained to you in the above is grading green lumber. I don't get into the grading after drying etc but there are many factors to that also. In the short knots could explode, checks could open up becoming splits, honeycomb could arise etc. Than even after you have planed it some of your twig knots/pin knots could become knots. Planing can bring a defect out more or get rid of it.

[Tom]

Those are the rules y'all use for hardwoods, right?   Lots of these fellows are sawing softwood, Pine and cypress.

Getting into stress grading, spans and such will probably come in real handy for some of them.

We've got some mills that are cutting Deadheaded cypress cut loose from rafts in the 1800's and they are finding some pine too.  this is being used for furniture, flooring and other appearance graded uses.  Do you know where they can find some Cypress grading information.?

[Bibbyman]

Hows about sticking all that in the Knowledge Base???

[Fla._Deadheader]

Well, that about sums it up. Clear as mud !!  AND, I am unanimous in this. :D :D

 Let's attack this from another angle.  :
  Minimum size board is 6X8?? Inches X inches?? Inches X feet?? Feet X ??

  I'm not trying to be difficult, and, I know this can be technical, but, can't ya get it in a simpler form??
  Fer instance, If a board is clear through and through and is 6" X 8', there is ROUGHLY ? board feet of ? grade.
  If a board has a knot from 1/2" dia. to ? diameter, and measures ? X ?, It has ROUGHLY ? feet of what grade.
  Something like that. We won't string ya up if we take yer info the wrong way??  :D :D :D

  Maybe a simple drawing would help. We ALL like simple drawings. That's the onliest kind we can read ?? :D :D :D

  Really appreciate ya toleratin the abuse, but, I for one, can't follow what ya posted. I will order the rule book. Hope it ain't TOOOO technical??  Thanks

[biziedizie]

Hey Deadheader them rule books will drive you nuts and if you looked at every 2x that you cut and followed the rules then 3/4 of your wood be D grade lumber. We used to let soooooo much crap go by just so that the company that sent us the wood would send us more! When I was grading lumber I would walk into the lumber stores and would see so much #2 or better that was firewood. I buy lifts of lumber that's spose to be top notch stuff and alot of it has spike knots in it.
  As the grader is the last person to see the wood and has the last say on things then he is in control of what gets by. One company that sent wood in would leave a case of beer in the back of my truck everytime they sent a B-train in! It was great!

   Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK, I'll bite. Are "spike knots" those little suckers that extend all the way to the pith, but, are really small in size?? Big knots, I could see being a problem. If a buyer is to cut a board into smaller pieces, why aren't the boards graded by ALL the good stuff that they will produce, instead of being down-graded for a small knot that will be thrown away anyway??

[biziedizie]

A spike knot usually appears as you get to the heart, ummmm how do I explain. OK it's like this, if you cut through a tree limb you can see that it's a round knot. Now imagine cutting a limb down the center and putting it in the middle of a 2x8 that's where there would be a major stress point and the 2x would break. I see spike knots in alot of 1x mat. and decking because when they cut this stuff they just slab it and don't turn the log. Speeds things up this way.
  Knots are graded by how tight they are, like if a knot has a chex in it then there's a good chance that when it's dried it will fall out.  If a knot is in the center of a 2x then that's ok but if it's on the edge then down it goes in grade. Some lumber is old growth but has alot of knots in it and people think that it should be finger jointed because the old stuff is strong. I have an opinion about old growth and one day I will post my research on this subject. Hope this helps!

     Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

Now that makes sense. I know when you cut cross ties, if the wane is on the edge of the tie, there's ne problem, as long as there is VERY little on the face. THAT will get you a cull, or at least a downgrade. I just finished sawing one of those large Cedars, and, it had several spike knots in the boards, as I got down to the pith.
  Maybe this grading thing would be easier if we put up some pics of different boards and have our new resident grader give us the why's and what for's ??
  How about inspector?? :D

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Sticker stain, bug infection after sawing, excessive cracking or warping and other defects accur when drying if done wrong.  
  Here my green wholesaler does not want any board less then 4 " wide or less then 6 ft long.  Any board less then 6" and 8' will not make FAS.  They also do not want any board wider then 12".  Wane should not excede 1/4 the width of the face or more then 1/2 the length.  Knots on the very end of the board do not count aginst you but any stains or bug holes will cost you.  In just about any hardwood all the wood in the middle 6x6 of the log will be 3B and better off as a tie.
  Here is a photo from Doc Gene Wengert's "From Woods to Woodshop" pamplet.
   Better sawing makes better lumber but if it is not in there you can not get it out.
ARKANSAWYER

[inspectorwoody]

 :D Sorry guys! Didn't mean to make it tough on ya!

I like the idea of putting some pics of boards up if ya'll want to do that...just remember you will need 2 pics per board. One of each side!

As far as pictures...well I might be able to draw up for ya'll or if you want you can contact the NHLA again and order the NHLA Inspection Manual. It is illustrated! It has pics!!

As far as minimum board we are talking 6 inches by 8'. As far as cuttings go we are talking 3"x2" etc.

Help a lil' bit????? If not keep the questions coming and I will answer them as fast as I can  ;D

[Larry]

Grading hardwood seems to be hard to me.  Guess that is why they have a long school to learn how to do it correctly.  My grading system is -- perfect -- good -- and rustic.

I have the rule book and read it all the time and it seems like it is full of little exceptions like say for a FAS grade on a walnut or quarter sawed oak board where it does not have to be 6" wide.

Maybe be you could comment a little on where to put the knots to get a higher grade.  Arky mentioned putting knots on the end.  This can be done when the tree is bucked.  I like to try and plan my opening cut so if possible I can put knots on the edge of the board.

Welcome to the forum and glad to have you on board.

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK. Now we are getting somewhere. Arkie's post was VERY good. I followed all of that. ;D  Larry's post was also good. I followed what he was LOOKING for, before the first cut. This is what I need before I go to sawing big time!! :D  Softwood grading was mentioned. Any grading info on that?

[inspectorwoody]

I know the information I posted to all of you seems very overwhelming so you can guess how I felt sitting in the first few weeks of class  :D Like I said before I insist on anyone of you getting a copy of the NHLA Inspection Manual. I have a copy so I will try and post information from that time to time and see how that goes. If any of you are in Iowa or around Iowa not to far I would be willing to come out and work with you on grade etc. Love to travel, meet new people and see what else is out there producing lumber!

Also you will run into a varied amount of terms used to describe one thing. I believe the mention of "spike knots" is in reference to a pin knot. Please correct me if I am wrong. Just a guess  :D

[beenthere]

Some good information on hardwood grading. Hardwood grades are pretty matter-of-fact, and can be defined and defended. Softwood grades, on the other hand, are known to be more "in the opinion" of the grader.


A spike knot isn't a pin knot. Spike knots are just knots that run across the board face (as when quarter sawn) and can be larger than pin knots (which cannot exceed 1/8" in average diameter). They are knots and not allowed in cuttings. Spike knots have a big effect on strength if they are in construction lumber.



(Thanks to whoever attached this great drawing of a spike knot)

Tom
Cypress is included in the NHLA rule book along with the hardwood grades

[Fla._Deadheader]

AHA!!  Spike knots run ACROSS the board. DanG, I learned 2 things today!! :D :D :D :

[inspectorwoody]

Tom

Thanks for the information. I learned something new today! Try to learn at least one thing a day otherwise I feel like I haven't done anything!  :D Haven't got into the Cypress part of the rule book but I plan on sitting down and reading the whole thing word for word. Yuck...did I say word for word...reverting back to my school days in Memphis  :D

[Ron Wenrich]

Okay, I got a question.  In Arky's first board, there is a lot of defect in the first foot of the board.  But, the inspector says that "the first 1' on both ends can have no more than 25% in unsound wood".  Is that in the aggregate, or does that have to fall into a clear cutting?  Most guys I sell to would kick that first board down to a 1 Com without it being trimmed.

I don't know if it has been explained, but SM refers to surface measure.  Surface measure for a 6" x 8' board is 4.  That would yield 4 bf in 4/4 stock.  

With the rules:  FAS & select you would need to get 10/12 in SM/4 cuts.  In this case 1 cut.  You can use an extra cut if you can get 11/12.

Now to figure your 10/12, you simply take 10 times the SM, which is 4.  This will yield 40 cutting units.  To figure how many cutting units are in your cuts, you need to measure your clear cutting.  

Lets say you have a knot 1/2" in from the side, and 1/2 inch of wane on the opposite side, 1/3 the length.  You would have 1 cutting that would be 5" x 8'.  That would yield 40 cutting units.  

I'm sure that made everything clear as mud, but, you need to be able to figure the grade out.  Sometimes, that means getting down and measuring those cutting units and see if it falls within the grade.  

[biziedizie]

Yeppers Deadheader spike knots do run across the board like the pretty picture details! Wish I had a pic like that to show you lastnight instead of trying to explain it. Spike knots can ruin a board but if you see them popping their little heads up just roll the log and avoid them!  A good way to avoid them is to look at the log and try to remember where the BIG limbs were because those will be a pain if you cut the log wrong.  

  Was thinking about grading  lumber and things from the past today and it's cool that some of it is coming back to me!

    Steve

link to picture of knots

[Fla._Deadheader]

That was a good link. Thanks

[Lenny]

The customer grades our stuff. Their logs ;D Cut some beams last fall. Got what he needed and one big log ( about 30 on the small end 20 ft long) make wide boards he says.
 We took an 6x8 from the center  ( one for good measure), the rest was was boards, looked good, maybe a couple small knots in 20 ft,
 really nice boards from 8-24 wide 20 ft long. NICE LOOKING
Wanted about 7 of those for my livingroom floor. ??? ???
  He wacked them in half at 10 ft with a chainsaw ??? ??? ???
  He said they are easyer to stick that way
  He may think different  when he puts up this post and beam up in Lancaster N.H.

[inspectorwoody]

Ron

You done this before!? Seeing that FAS board that Arky posted coming at me on the chain and considering you have a 1 com on the reverse side etc I would take off 1 foot.

The first lineal foot rule states as follows: Within one lineal foot from the ends of the boards of standard lengths there must be 50% clear wood and not less than 25% of sound wood in the aggregate.

[biziedizie]

OK now how did that link get att. to my post! I did not att. it! It's a good link but it didn't come from my end.
  Something strange is going on here I tell ya! :D

       Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

DanG, Diz. Thought maybe you read a book : :??

[biziedizie]

Not me dude I don't know how to read! Can look at pics in those mags that they keep behind the counter at the local store though!  :D

   Steve

[Jeff]

It twernt me. If it were me I'da posted the link myself and took the credit.  ;D

Must be Tom.

[biziedizie]

Come on Tom and fess up! Was it you or is there a ghost in this forum??

  Steve

[ARKANSAWYER]

  If you can buck a log and keep knots in the last foot of the board you can make better grade.  If it is a large limb then center it in the board so as to ruin only one face of the log.  It there are small knots the put them so they are on the sides of the boards and can be trimmed off with the wane.  
  In soft wood you want to keep knots centered in the board and try to keep them off the edge.  
  You grade lumber on the worse side and FAS has to be 83% clear, 1C 67% clear, 2C 50% clear, 3AC 33% clear and 3BC 25% clear.
   A good sawyer can make a differace in how much good grade comes from the same log and a good edger man can make or break the mill.
ARKANSAWYER

[solidwoods]

An area where you  can saw green,  dry it and dwn grade is size. You saw/sort* and count on a grade.  You cut it too the min width,  but it shrinks 1/4" when it shrinks and boom,,too small for the grade you figured.

*I try to stack into grade piles right off the mill.  Grade is not a sales concern for me, but it helps me to have same grades in a stack, so I don't have to go digging through "log run" for a board.

If you open a can of worms, you have to grade-em.

[beenthere]

Solidwoods
That's a real good point, as I expect one could saw a lot of FAS lumber (6" wide) that just makes over the 5 1/2" width, only to have it drop to 1C after drying to less than 5 1/2". Its likely good to know that the width green will still hold that width after drying. That is where good sawing and edging comes into importance.

I use to hear about lumber graders who were looking for work would "buy" rail car loads of hardwood lumber, spot them on a siding, and "upgrade" the carload by just end-trimming lumber to get a higher grade. I expect that was in the 30's, but probably inspectors today can look at a lot of lumber and see where a shorter or narrower board would bring more dollars as a result of upgrading. Its not mis-graded, but is mis-sawn. For sure, a lot of edgings, if left on boards, could upgrade the boards too, but sometimes the boards don't look so good that way. Pays to have everyone making a decision on the production of a board to know the grading system.

[biziedizie]

OK now when do I see the grinch show up on my posts! lol! Isn't this an invasion of privacy! ;) Hey Tom can you put your talent to good work and check my spelling aswell! ;D


     Steve

[Ron Wenrich]

FAS has to be 6".  If it is 5 1/2" it will drop to 1 Com.  You are allowed a certain amount of scant 6", but its not too much.

Nowadays, either you upgrade your lumber, or you're out of business (unless you can buy really cheap stumpage).  That is where a grader working for the mill can really make his keep.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK, mainly what you guys are agreeing on, is, saw the boards 1/2" wider than full inches. 6" board, saw 6 1/2". Right or wrong??  I follow the bucking part, but, you can't always control that. Tha part from Arkansawyer was very informative regarding where to place the knots before cutting the log.  I'm beginning to remember some of this stuff. Remember, I haven't sawn since 1979.
  It's amazing the crap you can remember, but, the important stuff is MUCH harder to recall. Thanks guys.

[Larry]

I saw 6 1/4" to 7 inches depending on how much wane I think I am going to get.

Arky did a great job on the knots.  Deadheader here is something for you to conjure (is that a word) on.  

Here is a pdf link that has some good tips on improving hardwood lumber grade. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn98.pdf

I don't agree with all of it but it will sure get you thinking.

Here is a link to the USDA Forest Products Lab.  They have all kinds of interesting pdf files.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/pubs.htm#notable

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks, Larry

[Jason_WI]

I will cut down to a 4" wide board if there are no or very few knots in it. I sell to hobby woodworkers so I know they can use a narrow board that is clear. Most of the woodworkers rip the wide stuff anyway when gluing up panels. If I have a 4" board that is clear and straight I sell is as FAS regardless of what the NHLA rules state. I even sell 4' x 4" wide boards that are clear or have very few(1 or 2) knots for a little less. I can recover more lumber from those cooked logs that way and the lumber stays straight.

Grade all depends on your end customer. I have 3 grades. Clear with maybe a little wane and/or 1 or 2 knots max. Next grade is knotty with a few good cuttings between the knots. Next grade is [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] lumber with 1 good cutting. Some of my customers use [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] lumber for support pieces in there cabinets and furniture. I used a bunch of [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] maple to make a large extention for a Delta Unisaw. It turned out pretty DanG good for what it was made of.

My customers don't need to look at a rule book to know they are getting a good product at a DanG good price.

Jason